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Aux fuel tanks
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pilotdds(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:14 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

I added a removable 20 gal aux tank in the baggage bay.I tested it but have not found the extra fuel necesary.

   	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  	
	


 

 

 --

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:10 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

I was not suggesting that the 10 routinely be operated above the Van's

suggested gross of 2700. It is certainly possible to operate the aircraft

with considerable additional fuel on board, subject to CG, weight and

structural considerations. I have set the gross for my 10 at 2800 pounds;

primarily because I never want , in case of incident, to argue with FAA or

insurance company, about being over gross. Having on several occasions

landed a Cessna in IMC carrying a load of ice, I know it is possible to

encounter conditions with payloads which are not workable. My point is that

with proper planning and good judgment there are many options in the safe

use of these aircraft. If one plans ahead, the versatility can be

dramatically improved without significant penalty  



--

wayne.e(at)grandecom.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:51 am Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

I wasn't aware that there were two 10's with gear  collapse. I know about the recent on, which sounds like he stalled it high and  pan caked in hard. What happened on the other one?

  

 Wayne Edgerton N602WT

  

 do not archive

  

             Time:      02:39:41 PM PST    US            From:      "Chris and Susie" <vhicy(at)bigpond.com (vhicy(at)bigpond.com)>            Subject:      Re: Aux fuel        tanks       

      Dick we have just come back from a 42 hour  trip in outback Australia. 

      Most of the time  we were fine with fuel but as another has pointed out  

      fuel in some areas can be extremely  expensive. An extra hour range would 

      be great  here. The option of filling further on would be  great.

      I have spoken to an engineer at Vans  regarding making the the outer bay 

      of wing  also fuel and his response was like other RV's it actually  

      strengthens the wing however other areas have  to be considered like Max 

      weight. He would  not put anything on paper.

      An extra hour would  be good but I don't know about an extra 60 gallons  

      unless you few at gross weight or under but  you know what people would 

       do!

      With  two 10's with gear leg collapses We do not want to fly over  gross.

     So Yes I would add an extra 1 hour of  fuel if I were to build again for 

     out  back flying.

       

      Chris



    [quote][b]

hotwheels

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 240

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: Aux fuel tanks

Last year at OSH there was at least one -10 with outboard aux tanks. It made me ponder... The danger isn't not knowing for sure what you're doing. The real peril is not knowing what you don't know. 



If one hasn't done a proper engineering load analysis then making substantial airframe changes puts the capital "E" in Experimental... Not an aeronautical or mechanical engineer? Then you could end up as the next NTSB poster child slash Internet whipping boy.



Please don't add to the body count or to higher insurance premiums for the rest of us.



My 2 cents worth...



Jay



Do not archive

ncol(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:24 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

We talked at length with Vans on this issue. From memory, the wing has  

been designed to have some flex in it, outboard of the main tanks.  

While you can replace the leading edge further outboard with another  

tank, it stops that part of the wing from flexing. This then gives  

rise to a hinge point between the two tanks and creates point loads /  

stresses that the spar was not designed for at a center point in the  

wing. That's not to say it can't be done, but they do not advise it.  

Short term and low turbulence it would probably be ok. Long term.......



It is not often that you need to carry 4 people & a whole pile of  

extra fuel. Vans recommendation to me was tip tanks & a ferry tank.  

The plane is designed for those loads. You can put a Turtlepac 66 Gal  

ferry tank, sitting as close to the front seats as possible. It leaves  

little room for baggage, but it gives you 60+66 gal = 126 gal (at) 8.5  

gph LOP = nearly 15 hours. How big is your bladder??



The other thing to remember is that for most of your flying you will  

probably be carrying around the extra weight for no gain. A removable  

ferry tank is probably the best way to go.



Neil

rngurley

Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 18
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:33 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

To all -



Thank you for the input.  I think that his summarizes the wing tank idea but

I will look at a removable tank in the baggage area.



Thank you again



Dick Gurley



--

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:12 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

If the reported tip tanks are 7.5 gal per side, that is 45 lbs per

side. If always consumed first, in low turbulence, low G flying,

perhaps not an issue. There are a number of planes that have STCs to

add tip tanks to certified planes. Who knows what the FAA demanded for

those, but I doubt they did spar beef up. Bonanza, C210, C185 all come

to mind.



On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 1:08 PM, jayb<jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Last year at OSH there was at least one -10 with outboard aux tanks. It made me ponder... The danger isn't not knowing for sure what you're doing. The real peril is not knowing what you don't know.



 If one hasn't done a proper engineering load analysis then making substantial airframe changes puts the capital "E" in Experimental... Not an aeronautical or mechanical engineer? Then you could end up as the next NTSB poster child slash Internet whipping boy.



 Please don't add to the body count or to higher insurance premiums for the rest of us.



 My 2 cents worth...



 Jay



 Do not archive





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 54507#254507

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

partner14

Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Granbury Texas

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:38 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

No sense in reinventing the wheel, so has anyone,,,, using the KISS principal,,, come up with the best connection method for a baggage area aux tank?  Venting?  Transfer/check valve?

 I haven't even made any trips longer than 200 miles yet, but it seems it would be nice to know you had another 5-10 gallons somewhere.... oh, like a reserve!

 We flew over toward the CA coast on July 4th.  First stop for fuel, Colusa,tank empty, 2nd stop, Ukia, 2 fuel trucks, but no operators.... yes, I did get a little nervous.

 Don McDonald  



--- On Thu, 7/23/09, Richard Gurley <rngurley(at)att.net> wrote:



 [quote]

From: Richard Gurley <rngurley(at)att.net>

Subject: RE: Re: Aux fuel tanks

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 2:27 PM



 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Richard Gurley" <rngurley(at)att.net (rngurley(at)att.net)>



To all -



Thank you for the input.  I think that his summarizes the wing tank idea but

I will look at a removable tank in the baggage area.



Thank you again



Dick Gurley



--

_________________
Don A. McDonald
40636

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

I don't believe that the bending moment on the spar is increased by tip

tanks. If anything it is lessened. In some Ceesnas, the tips are the mains 



--

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:15 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

I think David is correct. In the Bonanza, the maximum gross weight is  

actually increased by the addition of tip tanks. No spar mods, that I  

know of with the Bonanza tip tanks.



David Maib

40559

On Jul 23, 2009, at 7:50 PM, David McNeill wrote:






I don't believe that the bending moment on the spar is increased by tip

tanks. If anything it is lessened. In some Ceesnas, the tips are the  

mains



--

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:51 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

We have used a bladder tank in the baggage compartment before.  We used the 3rd port on the Van's fuel valve and ran a line to the baggage area.  No venting is needed with the bladder.  It would be fairly easy to plumb a rigid line inside the tunnel, then a bulkhead fitting just behind the rear seat, in the front corner of the baggage area or possibly in the tunnel cover in the baggage area, then it can be capped when not in use or plumbed into the bladder with a flex line when in use.  I think our bladder was 20 gallons, which should be right at the weight allowed in the baggage area.



do not archive



 Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694



 



On Jul 23, 2009, at 5:29 PM, Don McDonald wrote:

[quote]No sense in reinventing the wheel, so has anyone,,,, using the KISS principal,,, come up with the best connection method for a baggage area aux tank?  Venting?  Transfer/check valve?

 I haven't even made any trips longer than 200 miles yet, but it seems it would be nice to know you had another 5-10 gallons somewhere.... oh, like a reserve!

 We flew over toward the CA coast on July 4th.  First stop for fuel, Colusa,tank empty, 2nd stop, Ukia, 2 fuel trucks, but no operators.... yes, I did get a little nervous.

 Don McDonald  



--- On Thu, 7/23/09, Richard Gurley <rngurley(at)att.net (rngurley(at)att.net)> wrote:



 [quote]

From: Richard Gurley <rngurley(at)att.net (rngurley(at)att.net)>

Subject: RE: Re: Aux fuel tanks

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 2:27 PM



 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Richard Gurley" <rngurley(at)att.net (rngurley(at)att.net)>



To all -



Thank you for the input.  I think that his summarizes the wing tank idea but

I will look at a removable tank in the baggage area.



Thank you again



Dick Gurley



--

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:09 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

cost and source of the bladder?

   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse  Saint

Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 8:46 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Aux fuel  tanks

We have used a bladder tank in the baggage compartment before.   We used the 3rd port on the Van's fuel valve and ran a line to the baggage  area.  No venting is needed with the bladder.  It would be fairly easy  to plumb a rigid line inside the tunnel, then a bulkhead fitting just behind the  rear seat, in the front corner of the baggage area or possibly in the tunnel  cover in the baggage area, then it can be capped when not in use or plumbed into  the bladder with a flex line when in use.  I think our bladder was 20  gallons, which should be right at the weight allowed in the baggage area. 

 do not archive

   Jesse Saint

 Saint Aviation, Inc.

 jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)

 Cell: 352-427-0285

 Fax: 815-377-3694

  On Jul 23, 2009, at 5:29 PM, Don McDonald wrote:

 [quote]                             No sense in reinventing the wheel, so has anyone,,,, using the KISS          principal,,, come up with the best connection method for a baggage          area aux tank?  Venting?  Transfer/check valve?

         I haven't even made any trips longer than 200 miles yet, but it          seems it would be nice to know you had another 5-10 gallons          somewhere.... oh, like a reserve!

         We flew over toward the CA coast on July 4th.  First stop for          fuel, Colusa,tank empty, 2nd stop, Ukia, 2 fuel trucks, but no          operators.... yes, I did get a little nervous.

         Don McDonald  

--- On Thu, 7/23/09, Richard          Gurley <rngurley(at)att.net (rngurley(at)att.net)>          wrote:

         [quote]

From:            Richard Gurley <rngurley(at)att.net (rngurley(at)att.net)>

Subject:            RE: Re: Aux fuel tanks

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

Date:            Thursday, July 23, 2009, 2:27 PM

           --> RV10-List message posted by: "Richard            Gurley" <rngurley(at)att.net (rngurley(at)att.net)>

To            all -

Thank you for the input.  I think that his            summarizes the wing tank idea but

I will look at a removable tank            in the baggage area.

Thank you again

Dick            Gurley

--

fritzsch(at)eskimo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:45 pm Post subject: Aux Fuel Tanks

If my memory is correct, some of the early aircraft were found to be 

flaming coffins in a crash due to fuel tanks located right behind the 

pilot rupturing.  I would be very concerned about putting a fuel tank in 

the baggage compartment for that reason.  In a crash you could suddenly 

find yourself in a gasoline shower with the slightest spark turning the 

cockpit into an inferno. 



Dave



-- 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dave Fritzsche

40813

Puyallup, WA

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:33 am Post subject: Aux Fuel Tanks

This opinion, and memory, relies heavily on truthiness.  The fact is that any impact sufficient to rupture an in cabin tank is most likely not survivable by the occupants due to blunt force trauma.  Secondly, impact sufficient to rupture a cabin tank will also have caused more damage to the wing tanks which is only a few inches from the cabin.  Lastly there are many current certified aircraft (as well as the RV-12) that have fuselage fuel tanks or STCs for fuselage fuel tanks.  There is an STC for a permanent baggage area fuel tank for the Cardinal RG that I currently fly.  Most commercial airlines have wing center tanks under the cabin.

   

 In a past RVAtor article, Van's (Ken Krueger) has stated if builders must add additional tanks, they would prefer fuselage based tanks, rather than additional wing tanks.  Your concern regarding a "gasoline shower" is only valid if you are worried about having an "excellent kadabra." 

 

William Curtis

 40237

 http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

  

 On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 1:27 AM, Dave Fritzsche (Building) <fritzsch(at)eskimo.com (fritzsch(at)eskimo.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "Dave Fritzsche (Building)" <fritzsch(at)eskimo.com (fritzsch(at)eskimo.com)>

 

If my memory is correct, some of the early aircraft were found to be flaming coffins in a crash due to fuel tanks located right behind the pilot rupturing.  I would be very concerned about putting a fuel tank in the baggage compartment for that reason.  In a crash you could suddenly find yourself in a gasoline shower with the slightest spark turning the cockpit into an inferno. 

 Dave



-- 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dave Fritzsche

40813

Puyallup, WA

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



[b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: Aux Fuel Tanks

The RV-12 has just received FAA certification as a Light Sport and

complete kits are now being readied for shipment to those who have

passion for such things.  Just a note before shifting entirely into

RV-10 issues for OSH.



John



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:26 am Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

Stalled high, pancaked hard in California.  

   

CBS did a small piece on Lancair International (KOIN-PDX and yes, I recorded it) as they roll out the Evolution which did a tail contact landing attempt with gear inadvertently UP two weeks ago.  The byline was titled "Unsafe at any speed" and unfortunately took the kit builder's positive effort at a pre OSH promotional and turned it towards the more than 100 fatalities in make that have been documented.  Proficiency Training is not an will never be Transition Training.  That said, I read that Bill's LSI, RV-10 had a mid flight propulsion problem and executed a near perfect landing ON FIELD with no airspeed left.  As some so humorously pointed out on the 2 -FAT which was actually a reference to the two POB "onboard", I think they should be commended for their airmanship.  

   

Airspeed maintenance until contact with terra firma can result in CFIT or at the least memorialized FAA embarrassment.  Let's all make compliant landings to and from OSH this next week.  

   

John  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Edgerton

 Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 5:50 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Aux fuel tanks  

  

  

     

I wasn't aware that there were two 10's with gear collapse. I know about the recent on, which sounds like he stalled it high and pan caked in hard. What happened on the other one?  

    

   

    

Wayne Edgerton N602WT  

    

   

    

do not archive  

    

   

            

Time:          

02:39:41 PM PST US        

           

From:          

"Chris and   Susie" <vhicy(at)bigpond.com (vhicy(at)bigpond.com)>        

           

Subject:          

Re: Aux fuel tanks        

      

       Dick we have just come back from a 42 hour trip in outback Australia. 

       Most of the time we were fine with fuel but as another has pointed out 

       fuel in some areas can be extremely expensive. An extra hour range would 

       be great here. The option of filling further on would be great.

       I have spoken to an engineer at Vans regarding making the the outer bay 

       of wing also fuel and his response was like other RV's it actually 

       strengthens the wing however other areas have to be considered like Max 

       weight. He would not put anything on paper.

       An extra hour would be good but I don't know about an extra 60 gallons 

       unless you few at gross weight or under but you know what people would 

       do!

       With two 10's with gear leg collapses We do not want to fly over gross.

 [b]     So Yes I would add an extra 1 hour of fuel if I were to build again for 

      out back flying.

 [/b]      

       Chris  

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