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Glenn Horne

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 96

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:41 pm Post subject: Kitfox

Is there anyone on the list that might have  a ELSA Kitfox 4 or up

 with a 912 for sale or know of anyone.   

 GLENN HORNE

Kitfox Model  II

   [quote][b]

johnciolino(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:51 am Post subject: Kitfox

Glenn,  

   

I am just finishing an RV-8 and have a Kitfox IV-1200 that I want to sell.  It has 675 hours on it and has a 912.  I am located on the Hartford, CT area.  Send me a private e-mail with any questions you have.  

   

John Ciolino  

N9294Y  

johnciolino(at)comcast.net  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Horne

 Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 9:34 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Kitfox  

  

  

     

Is there anyone on the list that might have a ELSA Kitfox 4 or up  

    

with a 912 for sale or know of anyone.    

    

GLENN HORNE

 Kitfox Model II  

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Jim Feldmann

Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 54
Location: Burbank, CA

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox

Glenn:



I think we know what you meant, but there is a lot of confusion here (and everywhere, it seems) concerning the LSA/Sport Pilot rules.  Let's try and keep the jargon straight.



There is no such thing as a Kitfox ELSA.  An ESLA is an airplane built from a kit that produces an EXACT copy of the equivalent factory-built SLSA.  Kitfox Aircraft just introduced it's first SLSA (for $84,000+) and may in the future bring out an ESLA based on it, but so far all Kitfoxes are Experimental-Amateur Built.  



I assume that the reason you asked about ELSA Kitfoxes is because you are looking for a Sport Pilot legal airplane.  A Sport Pilot can legally fly any airplane (LSA, Experimental, Type Certificated, or Ultralight) that does not exceed the limitations on the Sport Pilot credential.  Model IV and earlier Kitfoxes without cockpit adjustable props are Sport Pilot legal, but any later series Kitfox is not, because the gross weight is too high.  (Unless the builder had the foresight to certify the airplane at 1320# gross weight.  A thorough check of the FAA records would be necessary to prove that.)

_________________
Jim Feldmann
Kitfox IV Speedster / 912 lost to prop failure
Building a Kitfox 5 Voyager

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 3:55 pm Post subject: Kitfox

Glenn C You getting back into Kotfoxes?

  

 Pat Reily do not archive

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL

 

  From: glennflys(at)verizon.net

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox

Date: Sat C 1 Aug 2009 21:33:49 -0400



    Is there anyone on the list that might have a ELSA Kitfox 4 or up

 with a 912 for sale or know of anyone.  

 GLENN HORNE

Kitfox Model II

[quote]



 	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

ronics.com
	


ww.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

Glenn Horne

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 96

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:23 pm Post subject: Kitfox

No, A friend of mine looking to buy one.

 Pat your email address the same.

 GLENN HORNE

Kitfox Model II

 [quote]   ---

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:55 am Post subject: Kitfox

Jim, and Glenn,



My Kitfox Model II, started in 1989 and first flown in 1991 in the UK, is

now a US registered and certificated ELSA (Experimental - Light Sport) and I

am it's Repairman/Inspection rated owner. So there *is* such a thing as an

ELSA Kitfox and I believe there are many others who have elected to

certificate the new-build Kitfoxes as ELSA. Sorry to argue your post here

Glenn, but as you said we need to avoid "confusion" 



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

Glenn Horne

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 96

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:35 am Post subject: Kitfox

Thanks,

Bob       GLENN HORNE

Kitfox Model II

---

jridgway

Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 64

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:38 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox

I purchased a 'unlicensed' gyro that was home built about  two years ago. I could not license it EXPERIMENTAL since I did not build it. The FAA registered it ELSA. They used ELSA when they were trying to get all aircraft licensed last year (heavy ultralights, unlicensed aircraft, ...). I think they stopped using this option after the 1 year 'grace period'. I was also able to go to a 2 day CONDITIONAL INSPECTION course and now I can also do my own annuals.

Jack

Last edited by jridgway on Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

jridgway

Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 64

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox

I just chatted with the A/P who does a lot of work with our EAA chapter. He told me we have about half a dozen fixed wing aircraft in the local area that are ELSA. These aircraft are home built but for numerous reasons were never were licensed EXPERIMENTAL and were just being flown as VERY HEAVY ULTRALIGHTS....lol..The FAA gave a chance for all these ROGUE aircraft to get legal by licensing them under the ELSA. This was about 2 years ago and terminated Dec 2008. If you did not take advantage of this AMNESTY you are really *^^)(& if you ever need to get legal now on a plane that was not registered by the original builder.

Jack

PS..Kind of interesting..If you purchased a EXPERIMENTAL aircraft (and were not the builder) you need a A/P to do the annual. If you purchased the same plane (and was unlicensed) under the ELSA amnesty anybody can go to a 2 day course and get a REPAIRMANS CERTIFICATE and do the annuals and the same aircraft..

PS..To be honest...the ELSA does have some restrictions that a fully registered EXPERIMENTAL does not have.

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:06 am Post subject: Kitfox

The FAA created the Light Sport category of the Experimental type for

Airworthiness Certification in 2005 and set an end date of January 31st 2008

for the conversion of non-registered aircraft to the new type. This

"amnesty" period applied to registration for an "N" number only, I

registered my Kitfox II in late 2007 and applied for and was granted and

ELSA Airworthiness Certificate in late 2008, after the closure of the

amnesty period, with no problems. Any aircraft previously issued any

Airworthiness type certificate was not eligible to convert to ELSA, only

unregistered uncertificated aircraft but I certainly wouldn't call my or

anyone else's aircraft that took advantage of this program "rogue".



An ELSA aircraft is type certificated as "Experimental" with the same

restrictions and privileges as EAB aircraft (Experimental - Amateur Built).

True there are additional restrictions on weight, adjustable props, landing

gear, and a few other things (see

http://www.pilotfriend.com/experimental/spt_cat.htm for a complete list) but

there is the added plus of being able to be the maintainer and inspector of

your own aircraft even if you are not the builder, which for me was a major

factor, and has absolutely nothing to do with the amnesty conversion period

at the beginning of the category creation.



No offense intended in correcting the statements in your post Jack, just

trying to keep the facts straight here to avoid further confusion.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:17 am Post subject: Kitfox

Bob,



In the interest of keeping the facts straight, Anyone can do the maintenance 

on an amateur built experimantal aircraft and can do the annual condition 

inspection as well --if he can find an A&P who will sign certifying that 

"this aircraft has been inspected on [date] according to....".  You and I 

are entitled to sign and affix our certificate numbers as the responsible 

party after an inspection.  In the approved wording, it doesn't specify who 

did the inspection.



All that is required is that an owner find an A&P that is wiling to endorse 

the log book.  This procedure is done all the time and I expect by most list 

non builder owners.



Regarding the Rogue comment.  I think it is a fair assessment of the FAAs 

incentive in beginning the ELSA program.  There were numerous two place non 

conforming "Ultralight trainers" that were being flown without any licensing 

whatsoever.  Many heavy non regulation conforming "ultralights" as well. 

Enough in fact that the FAA considered it a major issue.  These were the 

rogue aircraft referred to in the original post.  Your particular situation 

is piggy backed onto the original intent of the ELSA program and correct me 

if I am wrong, but your airplane was certified in another country and was 

kindly treated by the FAA as a previously uncertified aircraft.



If the FAA had just decided to look the other way regarding the "rogue" 

aircraft, your licensing of your imported aircraft would have to have taken 

another route.



Lowell Fitt

Cameron Park, CA

Model IV-1200 R-912 UL

Covering Fuselage



---

helili(at)chahtatushka.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:48 am Post subject: Kitfox

§ 65.85   Airframe rating; additional privileges.

top



(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, a certificated

mechanic with an airframe rating may approve and return to service an

airframe, or any related part or appliance, after he has performed,

supervised, or inspected its maintenance or alteration (excluding major

repairs and major alterations). In addition, he may perform the 100-hour

inspection required by part 91 of this chapter on an airframe, or any

related part or appliance, and approve and return it to service.



(b) A certificated mechanic with an airframe rating can approve and return

to service an airframe, or any related part or appliance, of an aircraft

with a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category after

performing and inspecting a major repair or major alteration for products

that are not produced under an FAA approval provided the work was performed

in accordance with instructions developed by the manufacturer or a person

acceptable to the FAA.



[Doc. No. 1179, 27 FR 7973, Aug. 10, 1962, as amended by Amdt. 65–10, 32 FR

5770, Apr. 11, 1967; Amdt. 65–45, 69 FR 44879, July 27, 2004]



§ 65.87   Powerplant rating; additional privileges.

top



(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, a certificated

mechanic with a powerplant rating may approve and return to service a

powerplant or propeller or any related part or appliance, after he has

performed, supervised, or inspected its maintenance or alteration (excluding

major repairs and major alterations). In addition, he may perform the

100-hour inspection required by part 91 of this chapter on a powerplant or

propeller, or any part thereof, and approve and return it to service.



(b) A certificated mechanic with a powerplant rating can approve and return

to service a powerplant or propeller, or any related part or appliance, of

an aircraft with a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport

category after performing and inspecting a major repair or major alteration

for products that are not produced under an FAA approval, provided the work

was performed in accordance with instructions developed by the manufacturer

or a person acceptable to the FAA.



[Doc. No. 1179, 27 FR 7973, Aug. 10, 1962, as amended by Amdt. 65–10, 32 FR

5770, Apr. 11, 1967; Amdt. 65–45, 69 FR 44879, July 27, 2004]

John Hart

KFIV, NSI Subaru

Wilburton, OK



--

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:51 am Post subject: Kitfox

Hi Lowell,



Thanks for adding additional clarification to these points. 



As was discussed before on this list the only requirement for an annual

inspection on Experimental Amateur-Built is that there be a signature and

valid "inspection rated" license number in the logbook certifying that the

aircraft is in "fit condition for safe operation" - this sign-off can be

done by the builder if he/she has applied for the proper license, or a

licensed A&P. It cannot however be signed off by an owner who did not build

the plane. Of course a "friend" A&P can sign off on a non-licensed owner's

word that the aircraft is safe, but most (my opinion) would not risk doing

that for a stranger, so we are talking a gray area here. Although people on

this list I'm sure are not short of licensed "friends" I am only saying that

is not the intent of the rules. The owner of an ELSA aircraft, by contrast,

can take a course and get a license and legally sign off on his/her own

inspections, even if he has no friends!



My UK imported Kitfox slipped in on the ELSA amnesty period yes that's true,

I was lucky! It never had an ICAO C of A, the CAA does not issue a

Certificate of Airworthiness to any aircraft other than Standard Type (STC)

spam-cans. I had to jump through hoops and pay lots of $$ to prove to the

FAA that the plane never had an Airworthiness Certificate (essential for

applying for an ELSA) and as you say mine was a unique case, but there was

no "kindness" from the FAA during the process believe me 



Owners of aircraft that did legally take advantage of the amnesty program

for ELSA had non-registered aircraft that were being flown legally under the

old set of rules. They were not "rogue". An aircraft being flown now without

proper registration or certification would be rogue, and illegal under the

new rules.



Hope this clarifies things - good discussion!



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:49 am Post subject: Kitfox

Note the word "supervised" is never used with regards to the annual or

100-hour inspections in either section, only the words "performed and

inspected". A "friend" who signs off an inspection he did not perform could

be liable for any accidents due to anything that should have been caught

during a legal inspection and could/should(my opinion) lose his license.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

jridgway

Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 64

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:54 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox

If the aircraft weighs 600 lbs/2place and is flying with out FAA registration..then I (and the FAA) called that a rouge aircraft ( whether it is a 2 place ultralight or a kitfox or ???)..just my 2 cents...

Jack

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:32 am Post subject: Kitfox

The FAA called them Red(rouge) aircraft!!??



Exactly where did you get this fact Jack? A search of the FAA site, and in

fact the entire Internet

(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="rogue+aircraft"&aq=f&oq=&aqi=) for

"rogue aircraft" reveals only the kind of aircraft that people want to shoot

down, not Kitfoxes and ultralights. Although I'm sure some folks might want

to...



Sorry list, couldn't resist, and I hope you have a sense of humor there

Jack, just having a bit o' fun with this - it's a slow day.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

jridgway

Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 64

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox

Bob..you got me...I will get you next time...lol...

happy flying..jack



PS..Bob have a question. I just started flying my KITFOX III with a 582 about 1 month ago.

Used about 10% flaps today for the first time. Really liked the takeoff, cruise (lower nose angel), and landing...better all the way around. Think I got about 3-5 MPH faster cruise. Any reason not to fly in this configuration all the time?

Maybe take the flaps out during high cross winds when I need full aileron control?

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:53 pm Post subject: Kitfox

Same would go for a 255 lb single seater.  It was always illeagle to fly unregistered and over weight C  both before and after sport pilot and LSA came about.  Take care C  Jim Chuk  Avids C Kitfox C  Mn

 

[quote] Subject: Re: Kitfox

 From: jridgway(at)academicplanet.com

 Date: Wed C 5 Aug 2009 10:54:10 -0700

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jridgway" <jridgway(at)academicplanet.com>

 

 If the aircraft weighs 600 lbs/2place and is flying with out FAA registration..then I (and the FAA) called that a rouge aircraft ( whether it is a 2 place ultralight or a kitfox or ???)..just my 2 cents...

 Jack

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256191#256191

 

 

 

 

 

 <========================> 

 

 

Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. Try BingT now.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

ltaylor02(at)Chartermi.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:44 am Post subject: Kitfox

I've had the privilege of being the second owner on two experimentals, 

Pulsar XP and presently Long EZ.  I perform all the maintenance during the 

course of the year and pay an A&P to perform the annual conditional 

inspections per the regs.  I've had the benefit of a five time experimental 

builder, 747 driver, A&P/IA perform several, which provides a great set of 

expert highly experienced eyes.  As I understand the regs the bottom line is 

that the owner non-builder can perform any and all maintenance, but a 

licensed A&P must perform (signoff), the conditional inspection.  The EAA 

site provides the regs and guidance to this effect.



Lane Taylor

New Kitfox IV owner/builder and someday (soon) flyer



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