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IFR KItfox
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Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:51 am Post subject: IFR KItfox

Hello guys,

I got an email from a Danish F-16 pilot who wonder how it is to fly a Kitfox. He lives nearly 100 miles from his air base and consider buying a light plane to fly to and from work. But, because he must fly all days, also in the winter, be must do it IFR. He has all the licenses he needs for it but ... can a Kitfox built under the Experimental rule be instrumented and certified IFR?

He lives near a little grass landing strip and will fly to his military base, with all the whistles and bells; including ILS. 



Cheers,

Michel



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_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:21 am Post subject: IFR KItfox

Michel,



For what it's worth - while getting my Kitfox II it's ELSA (Experimental,

Light Sport) Airworthiness Certification and reviewing the restrictions

issued with the certificate I asked my DAR that specific question - he said

that as long as the aircraft has the proper lighting and instruments and the

pilot is Instrument Rated there are no restrictions on my airplane to fly it

IFR. All I need now is about $30,000 worth of upgrades! 



But I would also first seriously consider the airplane-in-question's ability

to handle bad weather and turbulence, personally I feel my Model II is a

great fair-weather plane but I would be extremely cautious about any IFR

conditions that might include turbulence, but that's just my opinion. It's a

*very* light airplane, however I believe later heavier Kitfox models are a

lot more stable in rough conditions so might be better suited for IFR.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop

Wrightsville Pa 

--

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:26 am Post subject: IFR KItfox

Michel,



I have no personal experience in this, but here in the US, there have been 

several pilots that flew IFR regularly.  Michael Harder comes to mind.  I 

know of another that lives in the coastal area and uses it to punch through 

the usual morning fog layer.  What I have heard, however, is that because 

the Kitfox tends to be a bit bouncy in turbulance, it is not the best IFR 

platform.



Lowell

---

larry huntley

Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:49 am Post subject: IFR KItfox

Lowell,

 With all due respect to Michael,he did a lot of things with his Kitfox that 

a prudent pilot would/should probably not attempt. The last one cost him 

dearly.

                                                                             

Larry

---

_________________
Larry Huntley,Dundee,NY
Kitfox 4-1200 N234EE
EA81,AMAX Redrive Warp 3 blade

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:03 am Post subject: IFR KItfox

Is he also planning on installing an ILS at his strip?



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject: IFR KItfox

Thank you for your answers, Lowell and Bob.

Of course, a Kitfox feels more turbulence than a F-16. Incidentally, one week ago, I went flying alone in the mountains for the first time after I got my license back. Nice summer weather, sunny and warm. I flew to Fyresdal, a nice place inland. On my leg home, in the initial and very long climb, it got very turbulent from the thermals and I hit a real "air hole," it went very fast but from the corner of my eye, I saw my pilot bag mid-air in the cockpit. The strange thing was that, right after that, the air was extremely smooth. As Rod Machado writes it: Turbulence are like waves at sea, only that you don't seen them and that's what scary movies are made off! 



Noel, of course he can't land on the grass strip in IFR conditions. The commercial airport of Odense is not far from his home, as he tells me. For those interested, Odense was the home of H.C. Andersen, the famous Danish fairy tales author.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



Do not archive



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Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

jridgway

Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 64

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: IFR KItfox

We had a USAF reserve officer (non pilot) who wanted to fly from Dallas to San Antonio to do his reserve duty. It took almost a year to get approval to land at Kelly AFB...and his father was a 1 star general...good luck...

Jack

jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:15 pm Post subject: IFR KItfox

Michel:

  

 I suppose this happen very recently.  I'm glad you don't need a copilot anymore.  I would guess your son disagree...now he has to seat down and wait  for his turn 

  

 Saludos!

  

 José



 

   From: Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no>

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2009 4:17:26 PM

Subject: RE: IFR KItfox



I went flying alone in the mountains for the first time after I got my license back. 



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



Do not archive



<pre><b><font size=2 ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronicss.com">http://f;                             -Matt Dralle, List bution">

</b></font></pre></body></html>



           [quote][b]

MDKitfox(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:43 am Post subject: IFR KItfox

Michel,



Congratulations on getting your medical back.  Having once been in the same mode, I know how happy you must be.  Enjoy the flying!



 Rick Weiss

N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS

SkyStar S/N 1

Port Orange, FL



 



On Aug 5, 2009, at 12:10 AM, Jose M. Toro wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Michel:

 

I suppose this happen very recently.  I'm glad you don't need a copilot anymore.  I would guess your son disagree...now he has to seat down and wait  for his turn 

 

Saludos!

 

José

From: Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no (michel(at)online.no)>

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2009 4:17:26 PM

Subject: RE: IFR KItfox



I went flying alone in the mountains for the first time after I got my license back. 



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



Do not archive



<pre><b><font size=2 ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronicss.com">http://f;                             -Matt Dralle, List bution">

</b></font></pre></body></html>

[/url]

[url=http://www.matronics.com/contribution]



 	  Quote: 	
		  



====================================

="courier new,courier">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

====================================

nics.com

====================================

w.matronics.com/contribution

====================================



	


	


=  [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:35 am Post subject: Re: IFR KItfox

Small single engine airplanes are great fun and nice to go somewhere when you do not have to get somewhere at a certain time...  But trying to use a small single engine airplane to go somewhere you have to be is a great way to die.  I would not even recommend a Cessna 172 for what you are talking about.  This F-16 pilot obviously does not understand the limitations and differences of flying a single engine light plane in weather.  With the pressure to get to work, or get home, people make really stupid choices and end up crashing.   100 miles is not that far, he would be much better off just driving it in his car.   



Given the amount of time to CHECK THE WEATHER, Fuel, Untie, Preflight, get to where you are going, do an instrument approach, and tie the airplane down, it would actually take LONGER than driving a car.  I would have expected a little better judgment from an F-16 Driver.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:39 am Post subject: Re: IFR KItfox

 	  Michel wrote: 	
		  Hello guys,

But, because he must fly all days, also in the winter, be must do it IFR. He has all the licenses he needs for it but ... 

	




This guy obviously did not consider Icing flying IFR in winter.  Icing conditions will make a small single engine plane crash very quickly.  The pressure to get home or get to work will assure that this guy will push his luck and fly in conditions that he should not.   This sounds like one of the worst plans I have heard in a long time.



mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:44 am Post subject: IFR KItfox

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: JetPilot [orcabonita(at)hotmail.com]

 This guy obviously did not consider Icing flying IFR in winter.


	


I know, Mike, I have a friend who went flying in icing fog. He reached only 200 ft AGL before he went down on the top of the trees. Broke the wings but could walk away from it. The snow makes an excellent cushion.



Anyway, this Danish guy who asks about Kitfox is a F-16 pilot and I don't feel like teaching him aviation meteorology. 



Incidentally, he writes now, wondering if he has a chance to buy a IFR instrumented Kitfox in the US. If anyone knows one for sale.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



Do not archive



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_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:17 pm Post subject: IFR KItfox

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Weiss Richard [MDKitfox(at)aol.com] 

 Congratulations on getting your medical back.  Having once been in the

 same mode, I know how happy you must be.  Enjoy the flying!


	


Tanks, Rick. Getting back my driving license was just as good! You see, I need to get to the airfield before I can fly! 



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



Do not archive



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_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: IFR KItfox

congrats on the medical!  you are a better man than I.  If I lost my medical, I would still have kept on flying.  The only way they can keep me out of the air is to lock me up!  Does not mean I dont want to be legal, just means I love flying more than the laws.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:23 am Post subject: Re: IFR KItfox

 	  Michel wrote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		   From: JetPilot [orcabonita(at)hotmail.com]

 This guy obviously did not consider Icing flying IFR in winter.



	


I know, Mike, I have a friend who went flying in icing fog. He reached only 200 ft AGL before he went down on the top of the trees. Broke the wings but could walk away from it. The snow makes an excellent cushion.



Anyway, this Danish guy who asks about Kitfox is a F-16 pilot and I don't feel like teaching him aviation meteorology. 



Incidentally, he writes now, wondering if he has a chance to buy a IFR instrumented Kitfox in the US. If anyone knows one for sale.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



Do not archive



<pre> 	




Michael,



I know where you are coming from, you want to keep him as a friend.  If you like feel free to send him a link to this thread so that he can see my posts, I don't mind taking the heat      A Kitfox is a great and very rewarding airplane to have, flying is worth every cent you spend on it, but it is recreation.  When one trys to justify a single engine airplane as " Practical Transportation " to work and back thats when bad choices are made in relation to weather and people get themselves killed.  I spent a bunch of money on my Kitfox, and is worth every cent, but I will always remember its recreation and enjoying life... It does not need to be practical 



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

patreilly43(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:34 pm Post subject: IFR KItfox

Len, Back in the early 50's they ended up taking away my great grandfather's car. Taking his lisence didn't stop him. After all he was a retired road commissioner of the county. Do Not Archive

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 rebuild

 Rockford, IL

 On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 6:26 PM, akflyer <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com (akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com (akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com)>

 

congrats on the medical!  you are a better man than I.  If I lost my medical, I would still have kept on flying.  The only way they can keep me out of the air is to lock me up!  Does not mean I dont want to be legal, just means I love flying more than the laws.

 

--------

DO NOT ARCHIVE

Leonard Perry aka SNAKE

Soldotna AK

Avid "C" / Mk IV

582 IVO IFA

Full Lotus 1450

#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009



hander outer of humorless darwin awards

 



Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256249#256249



 ,

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====



[b]

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: IFR KItfox

Mine is IFR, with a full panel, not just pseudo IFR but with Vor, glideslope,

markers, gps, etc. I'm instrument rated, however I don't, and won't fly it 

IFR except for punching layers or very simple stuff. It is simply too much 

a hands on airplane. I think going flying IFR in the soup in a Kitfox, is 

asking for trouble. Even VFR it can be a pain to hold a precise heading

and altitude. I flew a Diamond DA-20 recently that was considered

sensitive, and it felt like a school bus as far as sensitivity goes compared

to the Kitfox.



Some might think they could do it, and probably will, but I'm not

one of them.



Regards,

Jeff

icubob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: IFR KItfox

jeff, your judgement is very good.

  bob noffs

 On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 6:01 PM, n85ae <n85ae(at)yahoo.com (n85ae(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "n85ae" <n85ae(at)yahoo.com (n85ae(at)yahoo.com)>

 

Mine is IFR, with a full panel, not just pseudo IFR but with Vor, glideslope,

markers, gps, etc. I'm instrument rated, however I don't, and won't fly it

IFR except for punching layers or very simple stuff. It is simply too much

 a hands on airplane. I think going flying IFR in the soup in a Kitfox, is

asking for trouble. Even VFR it can be a pain to hold a precise heading

and altitude. I flew a Diamond DA-20 recently that was considered

 sensitive, and it felt like a school bus as far as sensitivity goes compared

to the Kitfox.



Some might think they could do it, and probably will, but I'm not

one of them.



Regards,

Jeff

 



Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256426#256426



 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====



[b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:43 pm Post subject: IFR KItfox

At 12:27 PM 8/5/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Incidentally, he writes now, wondering if he has a chance to buy a 

IFR instrumented Kitfox in the US. If anyone knows one for sale.


	


  I volunteer to deliver it!

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:13 pm Post subject: IFR KItfox

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: akflyer [akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com] 

 congrats on the medical!  you are a better man than I.


	


Thank you very much.



 	  Quote: 	
		    If I lost my medical, I would still have kept on flying.


	


When I came out of the hospital, I had a letter from the police, saying my driving license was retrieved for one year. I then decided to stop flying for one year too; nobody actually retrieved my pilot license. When I went to the doctor to provide the paperwork needed for the driving license, he said he could see why I couldn't also fly: I can kill more people on the road than in the air. That's how I renewed my pilot license for this year. 



Regarding the Danish F-16 pilot, I don't know him at all; I guess he found my email address associated with the word, Kitfox somewhere on the internet. We exchanged 3-4 emails, that's all. But I have no reason to believe he is more a fool than myself. From what I understand, he must drive his car 140 km to go to work. He wishes to consider a light aircraft as an alternative. He never said he want ONLY to fly a plane; perhaps he will drive his car during the winter. But I understand that having an IFR certified plane would help if e.g. the weather is nice in the morning but the ceiling falls under 500 ft in the afternoon.

Best regards,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3- Jabiru 2200



Do not archive



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_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

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