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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:18 pm Post subject: Check this out

While web-searching another task, I stumbled across this

bit . . .



http://nutsandboltsfoundation.org/word-from-john.cfm



. . . do any of you have progeny who've displayed

any sparks of interest in what's happening in YOUR

shop? Here's an interesting organization that not only

senses a demonstrable decay in talent for our formerly

capable, hands-on industries, they've identified an activity

to search out, encourage and mentor young prospects.



I plan visit with the teachers at M.L. High School

early in the school year to see if I can get a sense

of where they're coming from and where they think

their kids are going.

        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:45 pm Post subject: Check this out

The news may not be as bad as it seems to some.



http://www.instructables.com/



I am subscribed to their email publication and have seen many new ideas 

and new uses for old stuff.



I think one problem is that our society doesn't value a jack of all 

trades.  Specialization is where the money is.



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

 

 While web-searching another task, I stumbled across this

 bit . . .

 

 http://nutsandboltsfoundation.org/word-from-john.cfm

 

 . . . do any of you have progeny who've displayed

 any sparks of interest in what's happening in YOUR

 shop? Here's an interesting organization that not only

 senses a demonstrable decay in talent for our formerly

 capable, hands-on industries, they've identified an activity

 to search out, encourage and mentor young prospects.

 

 I plan visit with the teachers at M.L. High School

 early in the school year to see if I can get a sense

 of where they're coming from and where they think

 their kids are going.

 

 

        Bob . . .

 

         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:55 am Post subject: Check this out

At 12:42 AM 8/7/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



The news may not be as bad as it seems to some.



http://www.instructables.com/



I am subscribed to their email publication and have seen many new 

ideas and new uses for old stuff.



I think one problem is that our society doesn't value a jack of all 

trades.  Specialization is where the money is.


	


    Unfortunately, public education does little if

    anything to suggest the alternative. One of my

    most revered philosophers was Robert Heinlein

    who wrote . . .



"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an

invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building,

write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone,

comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act

alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,

program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently,

die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

    While the list of tasks we're willing and able to

    do (or learn) may vary, the ideas behind his

    sentiments are quite clear. Now, how to share

    this recipe for success with our children?



        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:53 am Post subject: Check this out

My suggestion about a very large contributing factor to this problem is that

so few of us are raised on a farm or ranch anymore. Any farm kid learns that

if something needs doing, you need to be able to do it; when something

breaks, you need to be able to fix it. To eat, you need to plant seeds and

assure their growth, or to be willing to slaughter an animal you have known

all its life. I don't know how you translate this into an urban lifestyle

where we may be many layers away from the source of what we want or need,

but it's a great loss if we can't do it. Maybe it's just teaching kids the

joy of working with their head AND their hands at the same time, or the

satisfaction of playing with or living in or riding in or flying in

something they built with their own hands.



Terry

 



 



--

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:10 am Post subject: Check this out

At 11:45 AM 8/7/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



My suggestion about a very large contributing factor to this problem is that

so few of us are raised on a farm or ranch anymore. Any farm kid learns that

if something needs doing, you need to be able to do it; when something

breaks, you need to be able to fix it.


	




   You are quite correct sir. I've lived both sides of that

   coin. My grandfather came to Wichita from Arkansas as a

   nurseryman but skilled in building every resource needed to support

   that trade. By the time he was 40 he had built, operated and

   sold a nursery, started a contracting services activity.

   Traded land in Wichita for farm land in Medicine Lodge and

   added farming to his constellation of endeavors.



   This is one reason I'm moving back to M.L. and hoping to

   take all my kids and grandchildren with me. We have great-

   grandpa's and grandpa's legacies along with a home that

   will house woodworking, hvac, locksmithing, electronics,

   catering, tree trimming and publishing services managed

   by two professional teachers and four professional craftsmen.

   It's my new career goal to die stone broke with

   my family living in paid-for houses and radiating a

   culture of "how can we help you today?" mentality.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Maybe it's just teaching kids the

joy of working with their head AND their hands at the same time, or the

satisfaction of playing with or living in or riding in or flying in

something they built with their own hands.


	


   Yup, that's what launched my father's lifestyle and

   ultimately my own . . .



http://aeroelectric.com/articles/In_Memory_of_Robert_L_Nuckolls_Jr.pdf



   Unfortunately,  difficult to achieve in an Wii, Ipod,

   let's-get-eternally high/excited/pleasured-culture. I'm seeing only

   vestiges of that in M.L. so far. Perhaps we can help

   plant the seeds of a few old but well proven recipes

   for success there. I'll be seeking out other real teachers

   first.



             Bob . . .

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:15 pm Post subject: Check this out

Bob,



That is a long list of goals, but I believe I have been successful in achieving at least one already....the 'stone broke' thing.  lol



Chuck 



--

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject: Check this out

At 02:55 PM 8/7/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob,



That is a long list of goals, but I believe I have been successful 

in achieving at least one already....the 'stone broke' thing.  lol


	




   Don't know which (if any) combination of those

   skills will come to fruition as a goal. They

   exist to some degree in some of us. All we can

   do is offer them up to each other and to our

   neighbors as opportunities to be exploited.



   In the mean time, my working goal is the houses.

   Two down and two to go.



        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:48 am Post subject: Check this out

Terry Watson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 My suggestion about a very large contributing factor to this problem is that

 so few of us are raised on a farm or ranch anymore. Any farm kid learns that

 if something needs doing, you need to be able to do it; when something

 breaks, you need to be able to fix it. To eat, you need to plant seeds and

 assure their growth, or to be willing to slaughter an animal you have known

 all its life. I don't know how you translate this into an urban lifestyle

 where we may be many layers away from the source of what we want or need,

 but it's a great loss if we can't do it. Maybe it's just teaching kids the

 joy of working with their head AND their hands at the same time, or the

 satisfaction of playing with or living in or riding in or flying in

 something they built with their own hands.

   

Nawh, living on a farm is orthogonal.  A child just has to grow up 
	


without being handed everything he wants.  He has to learn to WANT 

things.  Then he has to learn that things can be had from one's own hands.



I grew up poor.  Not Ethiopian starvation poor, but if I wanted a 

bicycle I had to learn to build it from spare parts that I got from 

castaways.  I learned to build a bicycle from castaways.  I'm no longer 

poor by any reasonable definition, but I still can't afford a certified 

airplane.  If I want one, I have to learn to build it myself.  We'll see 

in a year or so what sort of student I am.



-- 

Ernest Christley, President

Ernest(at)TechnicalTakedown.com



TechnicalTakedown, LLC

www.TechnicalTakedown.com

101 Steep Bank Dr.

Cary, NC  27518

(919) 741-9397

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:44 pm Post subject: Check this out

I will confess to a strong possibility of prejudice based on my own

experience growing up on a farm, but I don't understand the use of the word

"orthogonal" in this context. I understand and agree that growing up poor is

a strong motivation to do things for ones self. I did run across an

interesting book that I think is on the very subject Bob was talking about.

I downloaded and read the free sample on my Kindle and will probably buy and

read the book. As an aside, I have discovered the book reviews on Amazon.com

to be a fascinating source of discovery. It's a little like wandering

through a library and sampling books, but all from your own computer and

with in many cases dozens of thoughtful reviews of the book. This particular

book is SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by Matthew B. Crawford. I think Bob in

particular would find it pertinent to his ideas. The link to the book is:

http://tinyurl.com/nrybq5



Terry

--

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:40 pm Post subject: Check this out

When my son was in his high school in the suburbs of Seattle, Washington was busy getting rid of all it's shop classes. When we complained, the school principal replied that all kids would be educated to go to college and if they wanted to get into trades they could go to an industrial arts school afterward. This was when all the "experts" said we were going to be an "information economy". Funny thing though, no one could ever answer my question as to what that information would be? The latest "star"? The latest trivia? We certainly wouldn't have any information about making things. And now we don't make so much anymore. Maybe we can sell information about how to ruin an economy by surrendering it to bankers and financiers. MHO.

Rick Girard

do not archive



On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Terry Watson <terry(at)tcwatson.com (terry(at)tcwatson.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com (terry(at)tcwatson.com)>

  

 

I will confess to a strong possibility of prejudice based on my own

 experience growing up on a farm, but I don't understand the use of the word

 "orthogonal" in this context. I understand and agree that growing up poor is

 a strong motivation to do things for ones self. I did run across an

 interesting book that I think is on the very subject Bob was talking about.

 I downloaded and read the free sample on my Kindle and will probably buy and

 read the book. As an aside, I have discovered the book reviews on Amazon.com

 to be a fascinating source of discovery. It's a little like wandering

 through a library and sampling books, but all from your own computer and

 with in many cases dozens of thoughtful reviews of the book. This particular

 book is SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by Matthew B. Crawford. I think Bob in

 particular would find it pertinent to his ideas. The link to the book is:

 http://tinyurl.com/nrybq5

 

 Terry

 



 

 --

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:01 pm Post subject: Check this out

I think a part of it is the curiosity about how things work. I know for 

me it was the driving force. Starting at 10 or 11 living in the suburbs 

I kept an eye on everyone's trash on pickup day and grabbed anything I 

could take apart. (Mom always worried about the electrical things) 

Another great source was things at garage sales.  Many times I bought 

things that were broken so I could disassemble them to see how they 

worked.  The next thing was tinkering.



	I don't know how to instill this kind of curiosity in kids, I don't 

know where I got it. I have always tried to provide opportunities for 

the youth I have come in contact with take things apart, whether on not 

they could put them together again later.



Just my experience.



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN



Richard Girard wrote:

[quote] When my son was in his high school in the suburbs of Seattle, Washington 

 was busy getting rid of all it's shop classes. When we complained, the 

 school principal replied that all kids would be educated to go to 

 college and if they wanted to get into trades they could go to an 

 industrial arts school afterward. This was when all the "experts" said 

 we were going to be an "information economy". Funny thing though, no one 

 could ever answer my question as to what that information would be? The 

 latest "star"? The latest trivia? We certainly wouldn't have any 

 information about making things. And now we don't make so much anymore. 

 Maybe we can sell information about how to ruin an economy by 

 surrendering it to bankers and financiers.

 MHO.

 

 Rick Girard

 do not archive

 

 On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Terry Watson <terry(at)tcwatson.com 

 <mailto:terry(at)tcwatson.com>> wrote:

 

     

     <terry(at)tcwatson.com <mailto:terry(at)tcwatson.com>>

 

     I will confess to a strong possibility of prejudice based on my own

     experience growing up on a farm, but I don't understand the use of

     the word

     "orthogonal" in this context. I understand and agree that growing up

     poor is

     a strong motivation to do things for ones self. I did run across an

     interesting book that I think is on the very subject Bob was talking

     about.

     I downloaded and read the free sample on my Kindle and will probably

     buy and

     read the book. As an aside, I have discovered the book reviews on

     Amazon.com

     to be a fascinating source of discovery. It's a little like wandering

     through a library and sampling books, but all from your own computer and

     with in many cases dozens of thoughtful reviews of the book. This

     particular

     book is SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by Matthew B. Crawford. I think Bob in

     particular would find it pertinent to his ideas. The link to the

     book is:

     http://tinyurl.com/nrybq5

 

     Terry

 

 

     --

simon(at)synchdes.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:08 pm Post subject: Check this out

What this says, Rick, is that once our business experts and leaders realize that a great country cannot be great without manufacturing, they will attempt to restart manufacturing, but we won’t have qualified machinists and other similar craftsman/tradesmen to do it.  We will have to import this technology and expertise, thus creating a whole new problem.  It’s too bad that our present leaders were and are trained in MBA schools to maximize this quarter’s bottom line and not tomorrow’s.  

   

Simon Ramirez  

Copyright 2009  

   

     

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard

 Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 5:34 PM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Check this out  

  

   

When my son was in his high school in the suburbs of Seattle, Washington was busy getting rid of all it's shop classes. When we complained, the school principal replied that all kids would be educated to go to college and if they wanted to get into trades they could go to an industrial arts school afterward. This was when all the "experts" said we were going to be an "information economy". Funny thing though, no one could ever answer my question as to what that information would be? The latest "star"? The latest trivia? We certainly wouldn't have any information about making things. And now we don't make so much anymore. Maybe we can sell information about how to ruin an economy by surrendering it to bankers and financiers.    

MHO.  

    

   

    

Rick Girard  

    

do not archive    

On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Terry Watson <terry(at)tcwatson.com (terry(at)tcwatson.com)> wrote:    

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com (terry(at)tcwatson.com)>  

  

I will confess to a strong possibility of prejudice based on my own

 experience growing up on a farm, but I don't understand the use of the word

 "orthogonal" in this context. I understand and agree that growing up poor is

 a strong motivation to do things for ones self. I did run across an

 interesting book that I think is on the very subject Bob was talking about.

 I downloaded and read the free sample on my Kindle and will probably buy and

 read the book. As an aside, I have discovered the book reviews on Amazon.com

 to be a fascinating source of discovery. It's a little like wandering

 through a library and sampling books, but all from your own computer and

 with in many cases dozens of thoughtful reviews of the book. This particular

 book is SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by Matthew B. Crawford. I think Bob in

 particular would find it pertinent to his ideas. The link to the book is:

 http://tinyurl.com/nrybq5

 

 Terry      



 

 --

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:37 pm Post subject: Check this out

A  concrete example of the impact of lost skills is building of nuclear power  plants.  At one point, there were 40-50 new plants, on paper, to be  built over the next 15 years---which was laughable;  impossible.

  

 TVA  recently was refurbishing one plant and finishing building another (started 20+  years ago), and they nearly exhausted the supply of qualified welders,  electricians, pipe fitters, engineers and designers....in the whole  country.  

  

 This  feel good phrase about our becoming an 'information economy' is voodoo of the  first order.  It's not that information doesn't exist, or that it doesn't  have value, it's just that to truly create, rather than just add value,  manufacturing or extraction industries are needed.  Manufacturing is well  understood, with Boeing being an example.  While mining and fishing are  considered extraction industries, so is farming, and lumber growing.   

  

 Wall  Street, the ultimate information merchant, is broke and we are relying on what  little manufacturing and extraction industries we have left to haul us out of  the hole.  

 

Chuck Jensen 

 

  [quote]   --

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject: Check this out

It happened sometime during my generation (born 1935).  Up until and during WWII, it was â€œhonorableâ€ to be in the trades, working with your hands.  Sometime after WWII, and before the â€œinformation ageâ€, in my world, it became imperative to go to college and earn a degree so that one didnâ€™t have to work with ones hands.  Somehow, using brainpower instead of muscle power became â€œnobleâ€. There are those among us that choose to use both.  We are the â€œtinkerersâ€.  We are driven to learn, experiment and to create.  But we are the dinosaurs, a dying breed.  Beyond the time when it was a given that a college education was all that was necessary to succeed, along came the computer. Todayâ€™s youth (and some ancients) think that you can do anything if you can conquer the computer.  Never mind what makes it work.  You only need to master the keyboard, the display and a host of programming tricks.  This mentality leads one to believe that â€œstuffâ€ happens without human intervention, except through the computerâ€™s omnipotent power. Thus the decline in people that really make â€œstuffâ€ happen - the carpenters, millwrights, farmers, machinist, plumbers, mechanics - all those that work with their hands.  Of course, they are still out there, doing the everyday jobs that must be done, but their numbers are rapidly declining; â€˜cause itâ€™s just not E2coolâ€ to work with your hands these days.  By all means, allow and encourage the kids to master the computer.  Just donâ€™t let it get in the way of learning about and doing things manually, creating and above all - â€œTINKERINGâ€. 

 

 Jay Bannister

   Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com 

  [quote][b]

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:19 am Post subject: Check this out

Paid for houses and no debt..What a concept..and one I reached about 7 years ago..biggest relief of my life was to make that final mortgage payment!



Frank

2 airplanes, one house and numerous skills applied to the benefit of others



Do not archive 



--

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:41 pm Post subject: Check this out

Attaboy Frank,

The most powerful stroke one can make is to become debt free. Lee and I 

worked 3 jobs and ran a business for 15 years. I had no holidays off worked

all the shutdowns with contractors attended night school and designed 

material handling facilities during the day. We were debt free in 1978 

and stayed that way.

It's the shortest distance to care free living and our blessed 

retirement of 5 years now. Thinking what might be worth building next.



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

do not archive

Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:

[quote] 



 Paid for houses and no debt..What a concept..and one I reached about 7 years ago..biggest relief of my life was to make that final mortgage payment!



 Frank

 2 airplanes, one house and numerous skills applied to the benefit of others



 Do not archive 



 --

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:53 pm Post subject: Check this out

Terry Watson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I will confess to a strong possibility of prejudice based on my own

 experience growing up on a farm, but I don't understand the use of the word

 "orthogonal" in this context. 

Orthogonal.  The phenomena don't lie along the same line, although they 
	


do cross.  Being on a farm doesn't really drive inventiveness or the 

tinkerer spirit;  however, being on a farm often means that you need 

more than you have.



I wouldn't buy my son a car when he turned 16.  I could have, but I 

wouldn't.  Made him go buy what he could afford with money he earned 

himself.  Turned out to be a clunker (go figure).  He drove it a year 

before burning the clutch out and then letting it sit for several months 

while he slowly figured out that he could fix it or walk.  My son is 

probably the only one in his graduating class that can pull an engine to 

replace a clutch.



The boy still couldn't slop a hog, but he is much closer than before to 

the attitude that would get his feet muddy.



[quote] I understand and agree that growing up poor is

 a strong motivation to do things for ones self. I did run across an

 interesting book that I think is on the very subject Bob was talking about.

 I downloaded and read the free sample on my Kindle and will probably buy and

 read the book. As an aside, I have discovered the book reviews on Amazon.com

 to be a fascinating source of discovery. It's a little like wandering

 through a library and sampling books, but all from your own computer and

 with in many cases dozens of thoughtful reviews of the book. This particular

 book is SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by Matthew B. Crawford. I think Bob in

 particular would find it pertinent to his ideas. The link to the book is:

 http://tinyurl.com/nrybq5



 Terry

 --

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:54 pm Post subject: Check this out

S. Ramirez wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 What this says, Rick, is that once our business experts and leaders 

 realize that a great country cannot be great without manufacturing, 

 they will attempt to restart manufacturing, but we won’t have 

 qualified machinists and other similar craftsman/tradesmen to do it. 

 We will have to import this technology and expertise, thus creating a 

 whole new problem. It’s too bad that our present leaders were and are 

 trained in MBA schools to maximize this quarter’s bottom line and not 

 tomorrow’s.



 Simon Ramirez



 Copyright 2009




	


Well, for the most part, those craftsmen were imported the first time.

-- 

Ernest Christley, President

Ernest(at)TechnicalTakedown.com



TechnicalTakedown, LLC

www.TechnicalTakedown.com

101 Steep Bank Dr.

Cary, NC  27518

(919) 741-9397

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject: Check this out

What this says, Rick, is that once our business experts and leaders 

realize that a great country cannot be great without manufacturing, 

they will attempt to restart manufacturing, but we won't have 

qualified machinists and other similar craftsman/tradesmen to do it. 

We will have to import this technology and expertise, thus creating a 

whole new problem. It's too bad that our present leaders were and are 

trained in MBA schools to maximize this quarter's bottom line and not 

tomorrow's.



   Well, for the most part, those craftsmen were imported the first time.



        Yes . . . but so were the consumers, entrepreneurs, science,

        manufacturing resources and individuals with creativity. It

        was communication (letters, books, news, ships) with the

        outside world that provided conduits of both information

        and willing/capable souls who perceived an opportunity.

        Wherein opportunity meant freedom of interference in the

        conduct of free-market bargains and protection of liberty.



        The older I get, the more I've come to realize that

        the most important ideas were embodied in the schools

        courses for which I had the least interest - history.

        This is largely because my teachers idea of useful

        historical knowledge consisted of remembering what

        people did what to whom and when. I understand now that

        the history of ideas is critical to success. It is

        insufficient to school the student in the specialties,

        hand them a room full of tools and expect a spontaneous

        flow of value-added activity.



        Folks like Kelly Johnson, Chas. Kettering, David

        Packard, John Fluke, et. als. were not just sharp

        dudes with an idea. They knew the history of their

        sphere of ideas. It's gong to be a much more difficult

        than to simply import warm bodies with the technical

        skills. Unless we re-create the environment under

        which our mentors germinated, grew and prospered, it

        won't matter how many techno-wiennies, or stone masons

      we import.



        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

mjpereira68(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:19 pm Post subject: Check this out

On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 5:07 PM, S. Ramirez<simon(at)synchdes.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   What this says, Rick, is that once our business experts and leaders realize

 that a great country cannot be great without manufacturing, they will

 attempt to restart manufacturing, but we won’t have qualified machinists and

 other similar craftsman/tradesmen to do it.  We will have to import this

 technology and expertise, thus creating a whole new problem.  It’s too bad

 that our present leaders were and are trained in MBA schools to maximize

 this quarter’s bottom line and not tomorrow’s.


	


How about instead of smacking around Joe CEO that we modify our

country's business environment ? You know, like reducing corporate

taxation since our country has the highest corporate tax rate in the

western world. Or maybe reining in the insane environmental

regulations that allow non-involved 3rd parties to sue to prevent the

building of any kind of industrial infrastructure (like nuke plants or

oil refineries for example) for years to decades.



Complain about corporate stupidity and bean counters all you want,

but,  reality is that any company that behaves differently will be put

out of business by it's more efficiently operating competitors (or be

put out of business by a nationalized company that no longer needs to

heed efficiency at all; I still can't believe I have to say that in

the United States).



If you want different results we need to change the underlying

fundamentals that are driving the corporate behaviors we all

(including me) find annoying.



Sorry for the political content. I do think being mechanically

competent is important.

But, with all the insanity going on in the US today I can't let

certain kinds of rhetoric pass uncommented. And, now that Obama

himself is telling me to shut up lest my neighbors report me,  I'm

super pissed on top of it (I don't mean pissed or even annoyed at

Simon, my opinion just differs from his and Simon, as far as I know,

isn't trying to oppress me *smirks*).



c'ya,

Sorry,

Michael



[quote]

 Simon Ramirez



 Copyright 2009



 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com

 [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard

 Girard

 Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 5:34 PM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Check this out



 When my son was in his high school in the suburbs of Seattle, Washington was

 busy getting rid of all it's shop classes. When we complained, the school

 principal replied that all kids would be educated to go to college and if

 they wanted to get into trades they could go to an industrial arts school

 afterward. This was when all the "experts" said we were going to be an

 "information economy". Funny thing though, no one could ever answer my

 question as to what that information would be? The latest "star"? The latest

 trivia? We certainly wouldn't have any information about making things. And

 now we don't make so much anymore. Maybe we can sell information about how

 to ruin an economy by surrendering it to bankers and financiers.



 MHO.



 Rick Girard



 do not archive



 On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Terry Watson <terry(at)tcwatson.com> wrote:



 



 I will confess to a strong possibility of prejudice based on my own



 experience growing up on a farm, but I don't understand the use of the word

 "orthogonal" in this context. I understand and agree that growing up poor is

 a strong motivation to do things for ones self. I did run across an

 interesting book that I think is on the very subject Bob was talking about.

 I downloaded and read the free sample on my Kindle and will probably buy and

 read the book. As an aside, I have discovered the book reviews on Amazon.com

 to be a fascinating source of discovery. It's a little like wandering

 through a library and sampling books, but all from your own computer and

 with in many cases dozens of thoughtful reviews of the book. This particular

 book is SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by Matthew B. Crawford. I think Bob in

 particular would find it pertinent to his ideas. The link to the book is:

 http://tinyurl.com/nrybq5



 Terry



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