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Need advice on insturments

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clydemacquarrie(at)eastli
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:11 am Post subject: Need advice on insturments

I am in the process of finishing a Mark 111 Classic  which will have a new 582 Rotax installed in it. Questions?  Should the  Tachometer be mechanical driven or electronic?  Coolant, Manifolds,  Cylinder Heads, gauges for all three? And finally a good air speed indicator  model.  I will be buying from Aircraft Spruce in Canada in order to save on  excise taxes and shipping.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.    clydemacquarrie(at)eastlink.ca (clydemacquarrie(at)eastlink.ca)

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Need advice on insturments

Electronic instruments are very much Superior to old mechanical gages.  With old style gages, its easy to miss something going out of limits as you fly and enjoy the view outside, its just human...  With an electronic EIS, you have a flashing red light whenever something starts to get out of limits, you cant miss the big red light flashing in your face even if your attention is not at the panel.   A very good and inexpensive engine package is Grand Rapids EIS.  Fully programmable, reliable, and tells you everything you would ever want to know and then some !  Best of all, it does the engine monitoring for you so your attention can be more on your flying and the amazing outside view, which is the best part of flying a Kolb !  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:40 am Post subject: Need advice on insturments

What is the best reasonably priced unit that you can see in bright  

sunlight.?  I hate little dim numbers.

My boiler gauges are visible at all times.

BB



On 9, Aug 2009, at 1:29 PM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Electronic instruments are very much Superior to old mechanical  

 gages.  With old style gages, its easy to miss something going out  

 of limits as you fly and enjoy the view outside, its just human...   

 With an electronic EIS, you have a flashing red light whenever  

 something starts to get out of limits, you cant miss the big red  

 light flashing in your face even if your attention is not at the  

 panel.   A very good and inexpensive engine package is Grand Rapids  

 EIS.  Fully programmable, reliable, and tells you everything you  

 would ever want to know and then some !  Best of all, it does the  

 engine monitoring for you so your attention can be more on your  

 flying and the amazing outside view, which is the best part of  

 flying a Kolb !



 Mike



 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast  

 as you could have !!!



 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 56795#256795

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:38 am Post subject: Re: Need advice on insturments

The Grand Rapids  EIS has an LCD display, it is visible in direct sunlight as well as any gage.  The numbers are large on the EIS, much larger than the tiny numbers on an old style gage.  It is also back lit for evening / night should you ever need that.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Need advice on insturments

 	  JetPilot wrote: 	
		  The Grand Rapids  EIS has an LCD display, it is visible in direct sunlight as well as any gage.  The numbers are large on the EIS, much larger than the tiny numbers on an old style gage.  It is also back lit for evening / night should you ever need that.



Mike 	




I second the GR EIS recommendation. It's a little pricey but in the final analysis the best way to go to really monitor the motor. My FSII had one and I have one in my current plane and they both give really good service. 



Most also have some rudimentary flight instruments like an altimeter, OAT and etc. I use the alt. in mine as my main altimeter and it works fine...



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:18 pm Post subject: Need advice on insturments

 	  Quote: 	
		   Electronic instruments are very much Superior to old mechanical gages. 

 With old style gages, its easy to miss something



 Mike


	




I've been getting pretty good mileage out of my analog gauges, my engines 

and airplane too.



Hope I didn't waste my money on those expensive VDO Marine engine 

instruments, at 25.00 a whack.



I can do a quick cross check of my entire instrument panel before you can 

react to the flashing red light, then punch the button to pull up the 

correct page to see why the EIS or engine in malfunctioning.  



Usually, by the time we discover a problem, through EIS or analog gauges, it 

is too late, ...or there is a malfunction in one of the senders and/or the 

instrument.  None of these systems are precise, but folks will chase their 

tails to get the two needles or indicators to match, retuning fuel systems, 

changing spark plugs, etc.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: Need advice on insturments

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  

I've been getting pretty good mileage out of my analog gauges, my engines 

and airplane too.



Hope I didn't waste my money on those expensive VDO Marine engine 

instruments, at 25.00 a whack.



I can do a quick cross check of my entire instrument panel before you can 

react to the flashing red light, then punch the button to pull up the 

correct page to see why the EIS or engine in malfunctioning.  



Usually, by the time we discover a problem, through EIS or analog gauges, it 

is too late, ...or there is a malfunction in one of the senders and/or the 

instrument.  None of these systems are precise, but folks will chase their 

tails to get the two needles or indicators to match, retuning fuel systems, 

changing spark plugs, etc.



john h

mkIII 	




The EIS automagically puts the offending indicator up on the panel for you and even brings it up blinking. No need to search any menus.



the first time the EIS did this for me in my FSII I was immediately sold on it. I instantly knew what the problem was (low voltage in my case) and was able to start making decisions on what to do right away. The one in my current plane does the same thing (again low voltage when my Ducrappy voltage regulator burnt itself out).



Another nicety is the temperature compensation for the EGT/CHT probes. I.e. they don't start reading hot when the weather gets cold, you always get a consistent reading.



Don't get me wrong, I"m a steam gauge dude from way back who was brought up on the old westach gauges and I still love em.  I just like the EIS more nowadays...



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Need advice on insturments

The other feature of the electronic gages is that they are fully programmable.  I set the gages to alert me in the case that any parameter gets out of normal, even though its still in limits of the engine.   I know where my oil temperature runs, if it even starts to get hot, I am alerted before it is anywhere near the limit...  Same with water, voltage, EGT, anything that gets away from what the ES typically sees alerts me before it is a problem.



We had a guy here at our club just burn up his Rotax 912, he had old steam gages and lost the water out and did not notice it over temping until the engine started to lose power, by then it was much to late.  Had he had an EIS with the red light flashing as soon at the temp started to go up, he would have saved almost 20,000 dollars.   The 500 bucks for the Gand Rapid EIS system complete with sensors is well worth the price, and not that much more than the old steam gages in the end.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:10 pm Post subject: Need advice on insturments

> We had a guy here at our club just burn up his Rotax 912, he had old 

steam gages and lost the water out and did not notice it over temping until 

the engine started to lose power, by then it was much to late.  Had he had 

an EIS with the red light flashing as soon at the temp started to go up, he 

would have saved almost 20,000 dollars.   The 500 bucks for the Gand Rapid 

EIS system complete with sensors is well worth the price, and not that much 

more than the old steam gages in the end.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Mike


	


Mike/Gang:



If the pilot had a good cross check of his instruments, he could have 

prevented burning up the engine.  Undoubtedly, he didn't.



The 912 series engines are primarily oil cooled with help from water for the 

heads and air for the cylinders.  If coolant is lost in flight, a reduction 

in power will keep the temps low enough to make a good forced landing at a 

safe area.  My mkIII will maintain altitude at 3,000 rpm.  At that power 

setting the 912ULS is generating very little heat.  A 912UL even less.



Reminds me, I have a couple radiator hose elbows that need replacement. 

They are starting to get swelled look.



john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:40 am Post subject: Re: Need advice on insturments

Before I had an airplane with an EIS I thought steam gages were the only way to go. 



Our Allegro had a Czech made electronic engine monitor that had small characters, was difficult to read in some lighting situations, and was programable only when connected to a Widows PC. I don't own a Gates PC.  Its only virtue was that it fit into a standard round instrument hole.



Once I had an airplane with an EIS I was hooked. I agree that the EIS from Grand Rapids is probably the most reliable, easiest to read in all lighting conditions, and least expensive electronic engine monitoring system available. I've had three airplanes with an EIS installed and I consider the warning alert one of its most valuable features.



I still like analog gages for airspeed and altimeter. My slingshot has only one round analog gage which is the airspeed indicator. My EIS has altimeter and VSI. There is room for only one more small gage so I may put an altimeter in that space.



In the single seat and tandem seat Kolbs as well as the Xtra, the instrument panel space is so limited, if you want complete engine function monitoring, an electronic instrument is almost essential.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:51 am Post subject: Re: Need advice on insturments

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  

Mike/Gang:



If the pilot had a good cross check of his instruments, he could have 

prevented burning up the engine.  Undoubtedly, he didn't.



The 912 series engines are primarily oil cooled with help from water for the 

heads and air for the cylinders.  If coolant is lost in flight, a reduction 

in power will keep the temps low enough to make a good forced landing at a 

safe area.  My mkIII will maintain altitude at 3,000 rpm.  At that power 

setting the 912ULS is generating very little heat.  A 912UL even less.



Reminds me, I have a couple radiator hose elbows that need replacement. 

They are starting to get swelled look.



john h 	




Always wondered about this, if you lose the coolant you've automatically just spent 20k? 

I guess if you shut down quick enough before anything goes into the red you're ok, but if you continue on even at reduced power you just hit TBO?



I know the 912 is designed to be able to keep running at reduced power after losing coolant (had to for the certificated versions to get their certificates I'm told), but I'm curious if the engine is reusable afterwards?



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

flykolb(at)pa.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:11 am Post subject: Need advice on insturments

This is a very important question to know.  A Mark-III with 912 lost its

coolant and the pilot thought he had to land immediately.  So he put down in

a less than desirable place and did a fair amount of damage to his aircraft.



Later - too late - he learned that if he had reduced power, he could have

continue to run without coolant to a better landing spot ... actually he

could have flown home to his airport.



So because he didn't know this one important fact, he had an expensive

repair to do.  But the damage didn't end there.  To get his airplane home he

borrowed someone's new pickup truck and trailer.  On the way home he hit

some ice and sideswiped something (forget what it was) and tore up the side

of the truck and trailer.



One of those terrible horrible no good days.



Dennis



--

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Need advice on insturments

 	  flykolb(at)pa.net wrote: 	
		  This is a very important question to know.  A Mark-III with 912 lost its

coolant and the pilot thought he had to land immediately.  So he put down in

a less than desirable place and did a fair amount of damage to his aircraft.



Later - too late - he learned that if he had reduced power, he could have

continue to run without coolant to a better landing spot ... actually he

could have flown home to his airport.



So because he didn't know this one important fact, he had an expensive

repair to do.  But the damage didn't end there.  To get his airplane home he

borrowed someone's new pickup truck and trailer.  On the way home he hit

some ice and sideswiped something (forget what it was) and tore up the side

of the truck and trailer.



One of those terrible horrible no good days.



Dennis



-- 	




I've always just been curious - how long can you run w/o coolant at what power setting and when did you spend 20 large in that period?



On my plane I bet I could stay airborne just above a stall at 3500 rpm especially with the powerfin fitted to it. Oh well, hopefully I'll never have to test that scenario.



But yeah this is another nice thing about the 912 vs a 2-stroke. Pretty much if you lose the cooling system on a 2-stroke, you're done soon as the CHT gets to about 410F and you're landing right now. 



My CFI always taught "skin, tin, ticket" - save your skin first, then try to save the plane, then try to save your ticket. Tin is generally replaceable (well as long as you're rich enough) but of course you are not. He always used to say that once the fan stops turning to generally think of it as, well, the insurance co. owns the plane at that point so #1 priority is your skin.



He's had more favorable experience with the organized crime of insurance than I have so I might try a little harder to save the plane. But the rear end still comes first and you know I'll run that motor to destruction if it saves that particular part of my anatomy .



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

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