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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:36 am Post subject: Brad Stump

Hey Guys:



Travis Brown shared this news report with me on the Brad Stump crash.



john h

mkIII





 	  Quote: 	
		   John here is a news report . I dont know if this is what you read or not.

 

 http://dpa.xtn.net/dynamic/News/Story/157498

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:22 am Post subject: Brad Stump

John- Thank you (and Travis) for this very informative report.  My heart goes out to the families.  I think this incident will provide valuable knowledge to all of the rest of us, both regarding operating outside the aircraft limitations and the proper deployment of a chute.  Please keep us posted on any further information.  Does anyone happen to know what model it was, and how equiped?  Also, I think the accident was in Tennessee- correct?

  

                                        Bill Sullivan

                                        Windsor Locks, Ct.

     

 [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:24 am Post subject: Re: Brad Stump

That is very good information John H., most of us know that the engine should be shut down before deploying the chute on a pusher type aircraft...  But reality is that in an emergency it would be very easy to get so panicked that one would just immediately pull the chute and forget to get the prop stopped first.  Hearing of an actual incident like this and knowing the result may prevent someone from making the same mistake.



As far as aerobatics, a Kolb is definitely not the plane for that type of flying.  I wonder how credible the witness is, if what he saw may have been out of control airplane trying to regain control, or if they really were doing aerobatics ?   If it was a non pilot witness, control problems could easily be mistaken for " Tricks ".    I would think interviewing people that he flew with would know if Brad was in the habit of flying his Kolb out of its flight envelope or not.    Its always sad to hear of things like this, but its very important to find out exactly what happened so that others can learn and not make the same mistakes.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:40 am Post subject: Brad Stump

You can go to this site and pull up the Preliminary  Accident Report which is listed under 10 Aug.

  

 Aircraft was a MKIIIx with a Hirth two  stroke.

  

 http://www.faa.gov/data_research/accident_incident/preliminary_data/

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 



 [quote]                             I think this incident will provide valuable knowledge to  Does          anyone happen to know what model it was, and how equiped?  Also, I          think the accident was in Tennessee- correct?

          

                                                         Bill Sullivan

                                                Windsor          Locks, Ct.

             

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 



	
[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Jean Bilodeau

Joined: 02 Jul 2009
Posts: 3

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Brad Stump

Does anyone know why there is no ignition kill switch in the parachute handle? It does not seem to be that difficult to install.

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Brad Stump

 	  Jean Bilodeau wrote: 	
		  Does anyone know why there is no ignition kill switch in the parachute handle? It does not seem to be that difficult to install. 	




I don't think I would want a Kill switch wired into the BRS handle.   The downside is that you now have created another way to induce an engine failure if the switch gets moved over time, or if the wire gets shorted, or any number of other things that could happen.  I also think if you were to pull the chute and rely on a Kill switch, the prop would not instantly stop, with relative wind, the prop would stop even slower than it would on the ground...  Would the prop stop before the chute got tangled in it, I have no idea.  



So we have something that there is a definite disadvantage and safety hazard when installed, and it may not even work as designed...  I have no desire to do this even though I could.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:21 pm Post subject: Brad Stump

M. Bilodeau

Remember the prop would need a few seconds to stop rotating, after  

you pull the handle/kill switch and before the chute was deployed.

You might very well NOT want to delay chute deployment, even by a few  

seconds.

Your idea has merit but I doubt many pilots would want to install it.



On Aug 12, 2009, at 5:51 PM, Jean Bilodeau wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <bilodeau.jean(at)sympatico.ca>



 Does anyone know why there is no ignition kill switch in the  

 parachute handle? It does not seem to be that difficult to install.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 57359#257359

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:49 pm Post subject: Brad Stump

In my case the prop usually stops first 

Then I utter the "aw s____ not again"



I suggest to new Kolb test pilots to do initial stall testing with  

sufficient recovery space.

-better yet, learn how to fly it first.

BB



On 12, Aug 2009, at 8:18 PM, russ kinne wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 M. Bilodeau

 Remember the prop would need a few seconds to stop rotating, after  

 you pull the handle/kill switch and before the chute was deployed.

 You might very well NOT want to delay chute deployment, even by a  

 few seconds.

 Your idea has merit but I doubt many pilots would want to install it.



 On Aug 12, 2009, at 5:51 PM, Jean Bilodeau wrote:



> 

> <bilodeau.jean(at)sympatico.ca>

>

> Does anyone know why there is no ignition kill switch in the  

> parachute handle? It does not seem to be that difficult to install.

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 57359#257359

>

>

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: Brad Stump

Hey Bob,

               Most accidents I've heard of in Kolbs , Aren't during normal Flying...

              Famous last words... "Watch This"



                Gotta Fly...

                                 Mike & "Jaz" the Flying Dog





 	  slyck(at)frontiernet.net wrote: 	
		  In my case the prop usually stops first 

Then I utter the "aw s____ not again"



I suggest to new Kolb test pilots to do initial stall testing with  

sufficient recovery space.

-better yet, learn how to fly it first.

BB



On 12, Aug 2009, at 8:18 PM, russ kinne wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 M. Bilodeau

 Remember the prop would need a few seconds to stop rotating, after  

 you pull the handle/kill switch and before the chute was deployed.

 You might very well NOT want to delay chute deployment, even by a  

 few seconds.

 Your idea has merit but I doubt many pilots would want to install it.



 On Aug 12, 2009, at 5:51 PM, Jean Bilodeau wrote:



> 

> <bilodeau>

>

> Does anyone know why there is no ignition kill switch in the  

> parachute handle? It does not seem to be that difficult to install.

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 57359#257359

>

>

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:25 pm Post subject: Brad Stump

The second link John provided seems to have a more credible witness than the person who said he was doing "tricks". From the description it sounds like he was doing hammer head stalls / Immelmann turns and allowed the aircraft to slide backwards during the last one. If that description is accurate it's not too difficult to account for the bridle line of the parachute getting wrapped around the propeller / gearbox. Too bad, such a tragic waste.

Rick Girard

do not archive



On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 7:44 PM, robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)>

  

 In my case the prop usually stops first 

 Then I utter the "aw s____ not again"

 

 I suggest to new Kolb test pilots to do initial stall testing with sufficient recovery space.

 -better yet, learn how to fly it first.

 BB



 

 On 12, Aug 2009, at 8:18 PM, russ kinne wrote:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: russ kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com (russ(at)rkiphoto.com)>

 

 M. Bilodeau

 Remember the prop would need a few seconds to stop rotating, after you pull the handle/kill switch and before the chute was deployed.

 You might very well NOT want to delay chute deployment, even by a few seconds.

 Your idea has merit but I doubt many pilots would want to install it.

 

 

 

 On Aug 12, 2009, at 5:51 PM, Jean Bilodeau wrote:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jean Bilodeau" <bilodeau.jean(at)sympatico.ca (bilodeau.jean(at)sympatico.ca)>

 

 Does anyone know why there is no ignition kill switch in the parachute handle? It does not seem to be that difficult to install.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257359#257359

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 	
 

 

 

 

 

 	
 

 

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 



[b]

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:39 pm Post subject: Brad Stump

Went back and read the report again. The entanglement is even easier to account for if he went inverted during the last "stunt".



Rick

do not archive





 



On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] The second link John provided seems to have a more credible witness than the person who said he was doing "tricks". From the description it sounds like he was doing hammer head stalls / Immelmann turns and allowed the aircraft to slide backwards during the last one. If that description is accurate it's not too difficult to account for the bridle line of the parachute getting wrapped around the propeller / gearbox.  Too bad, such a tragic waste.

Rick Girard

do not archive

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 7:44 PM, robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)>

   

 In my case the prop usually stops first 

 Then I utter the "aw s____ not again"

 

 I suggest to new Kolb test pilots to do initial stall testing with sufficient recovery space.

 -better yet, learn how to fly it first.

 BB



 

 On 12, Aug 2009, at 8:18 PM, russ kinne wrote:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: russ kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com (russ(at)rkiphoto.com)>

 

 M. Bilodeau

 Remember the prop would need a few seconds to stop rotating, after you pull the handle/kill switch and before the chute was deployed.

 You might very well NOT want to delay chute deployment, even by a few seconds.

 Your idea has merit but I doubt many pilots would want to install it.

 

 

 

 On Aug 12, 2009, at 5:51 PM, Jean Bilodeau wrote:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jean Bilodeau" <bilodeau.jean(at)sympatico.ca (bilodeau.jean(at)sympatico.ca)>

 

 Does anyone know why there is no ignition kill switch in the parachute handle? It does not seem to be that difficult to install.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257359#257359

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 	
 

 

 

 

 

 	
 

 

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 



	






 [b]

undoctor

Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:23 am Post subject: Brad Stump

[quote]



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Time: 06:25:25 PM PST USSubject: Re: Brad StumpFrom: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>      

      The second link John provided seems to have a more credible witness than the

      person who said he was doing "tricks". From the description it sounds like

      he was doing hammer head stalls / Immelmann turns and allowed the aircraft

      to slide backwards during the last one. If that description is accurate it's

      not too difficult to account for the bridle line of the parachute getting

      wrapped around the propeller / gearbox.Too bad, such a tragic waste.

      

      Rick Girard

      do not archive



******************************************************************************



Re: the question of non-pilots reporting on the activities of a plane overhead, 

while I was without a flyable Kolb, I spent some time and considerable money taking

flying lessons.  I flew out of Queen City Apt, just on the edge of ABE airspace.

We'd fly ten minutes or so south and do stalls, tight turns, figure 8's, sideslips, 

etc., for the most part over the Green Lane Reservoir, and over my sister's house.



One time we were together I told her of my practice area and she said, "There are 

always airplanes doing acrobatics over my house!  I assured her they weren't aerobatics,

which I'm certainly not qualified to do, but simple maneuvers, such as [b]practicing[/b]

parallel parking when learning to drive a car.



So, if there had been an incident and she spoke to a reporter, the newspaper, of course,

would have run with the claim that the pilot was doing "tricks" before the crash. That's

not the fault of the witness, but of the reporter, whose responsibility is to get and

report facts, which may be gleaned from eyewitness accounts, recognizing that they likely

aren't experts.  This lack of professionalism across the board is one reason why

the newspaper industry is doing a freefall with no chute. 



Dave Kulp

Bethlehem, PA

FireFly 11DMK

      

[b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Brad Stump

 	  undoctor wrote: 	
		  

That's not the fault of the witness, but of the reporter, whose responsibility is to get and

report facts, which may be gleaned from eyewitness accounts, recognizing that they likely

aren't experts.  



Dave Kulp

Bethlehem, PA

FireFly 11DMK

      

	




I totally agree with Dave, as I said before, you just can not rely on some non pilot's account that the plane was doing " Tricks ".  If Brad had a control problem, his recovery attempts would very well look like " Tricks ".  I did not see any knowledgeable witness describe any specific maneuvers in any of the reports I read.  If someone has more information on this accident please post a link to it.  When you read the word " Tricks ", that is obviously a statement from someone that has no clue as to what they are talking about, and should raise a big red flag even for even the slowest pilot here on the forum.  



I am not saying that Brad did not perform any aerobatic types of maneuvers outside the flight parameters of his Kolb, but I would not dare to make that judgment until I talked to the people at the airport that knew Brad, flew with him, and would know how conservative, or how crazy he was while flying his Kolb.  I think we owe Brad the consideration of not trashing his reputation by saying he was irresponsible until we have more evidence.



As far as the chute, going backwards would more likely keep it out of the prop on a pusher if the chute was mounted on top of the cage as they are in most MK III's.  I think the standard Kolb MK III chute installation would get tangled in the prop in level and controlled flight if it were pulled with the engine running.  This is something for us all to remember.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:42 am Post subject: Brad Stump

I read the description of the manuevers, and a thought occurred to me.  Is it possible for the elevator to get stuck in the up position in his model?  I think it was a Mark IIIx.  On my old Firestar, I put a hairpin cotter on the wingnut that holds the elevator.  It tangled with something, and got bent.  It was too long.  Is there anything front or rear that could do that?  What would you do if the elevator somehow did get stuck up?

  

                                                Bill Sullivan

                                                Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                                FS 447

 [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:16 am Post subject: Brad Stump

At 11:54 AM 8/13/2009, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I totally agree with Dave, as I said before, you just can not rely on some 

non pilot's account...


	


Not if they're talking to a non pilot reporter... but somewhere I read that 

in accident investigation, a pilot may be the worst witness... because 

their perception is influenced by that they think is happening.  Accident 

investigators say that a video camera, naturally, is the best witness.  An 

intelligent child is second best, because they describe what they see 

without trying to interpret it.  A non pilot adult is third, and a pilot is 

the worst.



-Dana



--

  If God took acid, would He see people?

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:49 am Post subject: Brad Stump

At 08:54 AM 8/13/09 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I totally agree with Dave, as I said before, you just can not rely on some 

non pilot's account that the plane was doing " Tricks ".  If Brad had a 
	


control problem, his recovery attempts would very well look like " Tricks ". 

 I did not see any knowledgeable witness describe any specific maneuvers in 

any of the reports I read.  If someone has more information on this accident 

please post a link to it.  When you read the word " Tricks ", that is 

obviously a statement from someone that has no clue as to what they are 

talking about, and should raise a big red flag even for even the slowest 

pilot here on the forum.  

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I am not saying that Brad did not perform any aerobatic types of maneuvers 

outside the flight parameters of his Kolb, but I would not dare to make that 
	


judgment until I talked to the people at the airport that knew Brad, flew 

with him, and would know how conservative, or how crazy he was while flying 

his Kolb.  I think we owe Brad the consideration of not trashing his 

reputation by saying he was irresponsible until we have more 

evidence.

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


Mike,



At least there was someone who saw what happened.  Even a non-pilot can 

observe what appears to be outside the normal operation for aircraft that 

they normally see pass over.  There is no need for further data gathering 

due to the fact that Brad Stump is no longer with us.



It is remarkable how many "good pilots" end up dead, even those with many 

hours.  Since the Kolb designs are very robust, it makes one wonder why one 

should fall out of the sky?  If there was no mechanical failure, the only 

cause for such a case is poor pilot risk management.  There have been 

several examples of this on the list which leads back to the fact that 

altitude is your friend if you want to fly slow or practice stalls, spins, 

etc, and speed is your friend if you are close to the ground.

Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:05 am Post subject: Brad Stump

"Classification:  UNCLASSIFIED  

 

  

Jean Bilodeau" asked: << Does anyone know why there is no ignition kill switch in the parachute handle?  It does not seem to be that difficult to install. >>  

   

Jean, and Kolb Friends –  

   

It seems to me that an ignition-kill switch built in to the BRS handle may not be of benefit, as it would take too long for the engine to spool-down.  The pyrotechnic would fire, the ‘chute comes out at 100 feet per second, yet the prop would still be spinning at nearly the same instantaneous rate as what it was when the handle was pulled.  

   

I believe the safe BRS fire sequence would be: 1) Recognize the emergency, 2) Kill the ignition, 3) Wait a second or two, then 4) Pull the BRS handle.  

   

Number three will be difficult to do, especially in an emergency.  But you want the engine to be stopped (or nearly so) before the BRS fires.  Otherwise, the ‘chute may end up getting tangled in the spinning prop, as Brad’s did.  

   

On my Mark-3, I have bright, red spots painted on my instrument panel directly above the two ignition toggle switches to aid in visualizing which direction to flip those switches to “OFF,” if the unthinkable situation ever happens.  

   

As John H has recommended several times on this List, it’s good practice to sit in the pilot’s seat of your Kolb and “dry run” this sequence of procedures on the ground before each flight.  That way it will come automatically if/when the REAL emergency should happen.  

   

My thoughts and prayers go out to Brad’s family.  

   

Dennis Kirby  

Mark-III, 912ul, “Magic Bike”  

Cedar Crest, NM  

   

   

      

Classification:  UNCLASSIFIED   

 

  [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:22 pm Post subject: Brad Stump

but somewhere I read that

in accident investigation, a pilot may be the worst witness.>>



During the war I saw an Albemarle pile in. It was a twin engine medium 

bomber that wasn`t up to the job and it was downgraded to Horsa glider 

tugging.



I saw the tug and glider climb out of a local field reach about1500/2000ft 

and the glider got out of position, pulled the tugs tail to the side. This 

was enough to stall the tugs inside wing and it spun straight in.



The glider landed nearby and all the men rushed out but there was nothing 

that could be done as the plane exploded in flames on hitting the ground.



Eventually an RAF investigation Officer visited me at my home. I was the 

only one who had noticed that the tug pilot had ditched the tow rope. This 

was crucial as it meant that the tug pilot realised what was happening 

before the glider pilot.



I was not a pilot at that time but like all kids during the war I was 

interested in planes. Sort of bears out the comment that a schoolboy 

observer might be the best witness.



Pat

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:19 pm Post subject: Brad Stump

Here is the NTSB Preliminary Accident Report on the Brad Stump Kolb MKIIIx 

accident.



http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 090809X12151&key=1



john h

mkIII - Resting in the hanger with a lot of good hours on it.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Brad Stump

Even though the report is short, it has some very good information in it.  From the description of the non pilot witness, maneuver sounds to me like a hammerhead stall.  The fact that this was done three times and that the plane leveled out each time means that it was intentional.  The flip over backwards and subsequent spin could very well happen in a badly executed hammerhead stall.  



John H, have you ever spun the MK III ?  How many turns and what is it like ?  I have seen Possums videos of spins in his Firestar, but the MK III being much heavier may be totally different in a spin.  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

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