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Departure from controlled flight

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gengrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:02 am Post subject: Departure from controlled flight

For those who may not have understood the thread on departure from  

controlled flight a couple weeks back, the link takes you to a 4 min  

video about a departure in an F-16 at Edwards AFB.



http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusivevids/ExclusiveVideo_F16_OutOfControl_YawDeparture_201012-1.html



grumpy

N184JM



do not archive

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:12 am Post subject: Departure from controlled flight

Didn't the pilot have override the FCS using the MPO to induce the departure? I haven't looked at the link but I think I've seen it before. It is eye opening, especially pay attention to the increase in respiration as it evolves. Of course the only manual pitch override and flight control system we have is ourselves.



Rick S.

N246RS

---

gengrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:23 am Post subject: Departure from controlled flight

This was an intentional departure to check out new flight control  

software.



Some of our net have never heard of a departure, so this video really  

explains it well along with video from the ground tracking cameras.



grumpy

N184JM



do not archive



On Aug 17, 2009, at 9:12 AM, Rick Sked wrote:



[quote] 



 Didn't the pilot have override the FCS using the MPO to induce the  

 departure? I haven't looked at the link but I think I've seen it  

 before. It is eye opening, especially pay attention to the increase  

 in respiration as it evolves. Of course the only manual pitch  

 override and flight control system we have is ourselves.



 Rick S.

 N246RS

 ---

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:26 am Post subject: Departure from controlled flight

That's scary as #$(at)!...



Great video though....



--

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:10 am Post subject: Departure from controlled flight

Grumpy



 In regards to the previous threads on this subject, When you tested the 

'no-flaps' slip in your RV10 is this what you experienced? Indeed it's 

scary! I suspect that it likely didn't develop as far as the F16 video 

demonstrated. As a non-certified-non-qualified test pilot I'd like to 

take you up on your challenge to test this for myself, but I'm mindful 

of my lack of experience in 'unusual attitudes' and am leery of 

attempting for fear of getting myself in over my head. How much of a 

margin do you/we have before the bird actually departs? Did you 

experience the 'soft rudder' that Jason experienced? Or were you able to 

identify the 'approach to departure' before experiencing the soft rudder?



Thanks for illuminating this topic.



Deems Davis N519PJ

http://deemsrv10.com/



Miller John wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 For those who may not have understood the thread on departure from 

 controlled flight a couple weeks back, the link takes you to a 4 min 

 video about a departure in an F-16 at Edwards AFB.



 http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusivevids/ExclusiveVideo_F16_OutOfControl_YawDeparture_201012-1.html 

 grumpy

 N184JM



 do not archive

jkreidler

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Departure from controlled flight

Wow....  Grumpy, thanks for explaining what I had experienced, I sure am glad it didn't develop to the extent of this video.



I don't do well with things that happen that I don't understand, I kinda gota know.  2+2=4 why?  Anyway, thanks again for the help, sure is neat to have the sort of experience you have to draw on and ask questions.



Jason Kreidler

N44YH - Flying

4 Partner Build

Wayne Elsner, Kyle Hokel, Tony Kolar, Jason Kreidler

kearney

Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:14 am Post subject: Departure from controlled flight

Hi 



I missed the forward slip thread but went back to read it. Not being an

aerodynamic expert, I do have a few questions especially as I relate this to

my experience with a Cherokee which I do slip. The Cherokee has always

seemed docile in a slip but then again I have never tried it nose high.



Is the -10 forward slip issue related to slipping the -10 with a nose high

attitude thus causing one of the wings to stall suddenly?



Is the end result of the departure (what an understated term!) always spin? 



In my youth, I learned to spin Cherokees (in utility category). It was

something I like to do. Now the thought of a full spin is somewhat less

attractive. In any event, does transition training in -10s include recovery

from full spins?



Cheers



Les

#40643



PS: The Falcon video was very interesting. When I get my -10 finished and

flying subsonic at 30k, I will be sure to try that. 

--

jkreidler

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Departure from controlled flight

I would not describe the attitude of the -10 nose high when this happened to me.  I had the nose pointed down, albeit not too far, it was pointed down to maintain an 85 knot airspeed.  The lesson going forward is to not slip without flaps, the sub lesson is to keep the speed up when slipping (if necessary to slip without flaps), this will naturally point the nose further down.



It did not feel anything like the entry of a spin, entering a spin usually causes the airplane to roll, this was just an abrupt yaw.  The airplane remained relatively flat, maybe a 10 degree wing drop.



Spin training was not part of the transition training, neither were slips without flaps.



Thanks, Jason

rngurley

Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 18
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: Departure from controlled flight

This makes me want to install speed brakes in the wings so I do not have to

slip.



Dick



--

gengrumpy(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:09 pm Post subject: Departure from controlled flight

Deems,

I did not attempt to depart the RV 10, nor do I intend to depart it.

The RV is fairly sensitive to a departure or snap roll on you if you  

attempt to slip it with nose level or high and with no flaps.  The  

ugly snap into departure or spin happens if you have one aileron up  

coupled with stall of one wing first combined with opposite rudder.

What happens in level flight or nose high is the rudder loses any  

ability to maintain directional control because it is blanked out by  

the fuselage.

What I encourage all pilots to do is to get to know their aircraft  

through the seat of their pants, whether or not it is an RV, a Cessna  

or an F-15.  You need to understand what the airplane is telling you  

through your senses, regardless of what some indicator may be showing  

you.

The way to do this is to do simple traffic pattern stalls and carry  

them to a light buffet.  To break the approaching stall, merely  

release some back pressure and, if necessary, add some power.

I suggest that you practice these 3-4,000' AGL.  First in the flaps  

down configuration, then with no-flaps.

Do a straight ahead approach into the light buffet first, then do them  

turning both left and right with the nose level to slightly low.  Just  

remember to NOT cross control aileron and rudder.

By doing these, first off you'll really see how honest and forgiving  

the RV is.....it's as honest or more so than my old 182.

As you do these, make sure you take note of what you feel both in the  

stick and rudder, and through the seat of your pants.

Once you develop these physical cues, you'll be a much safer pilot in  

the traffic pattern the day you get in too close and high and try to  

salvage a botched pattern.

Since you are doing these at altitude, if you happen to go past the  

buffet and the airplane does something you didn't expect (like fall  

off on a wing), simply release the stick totally and take your feet  

off the rudder pedals.

The RV is so honest it will recover itself without you, but it will be  

nose low, not a big deal unless of course you happen to be in the  

final turn.....

grumpy

N184JM

On Aug 17, 2009, at 10:09 AM, Deems Davis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Grumpy

 In regards to the previous threads on this subject, When you tested  

 the 'no-flaps' slip in your RV10 is this what you experienced?  

 Indeed it's scary! I suspect that it likely didn't develop as far as  

 the F16 video demonstrated. As a non-certified-non-qualified test  

 pilot I'd like to take you up on your challenge to test this for  

 myself, but I'm mindful of my lack of experience in 'unusual  

 attitudes' and am leery of attempting for fear of getting myself in  

 over my head. How much of a margin do you/we have before the bird  

 actually departs? Did you experience the 'soft rudder' that Jason  

 experienced? Or were you able to identify the 'approach to  

 departure' before experiencing the soft rudder?

 Thanks for illuminating this topic.

 Deems Davis N519PJ

 http://deemsrv10.com/

 Miller John wrote:

> 

>

> For those who may not have understood the thread on departure from  

> controlled flight a couple weeks back, the link takes you to a 4  

> min video about a departure in an F-16 at Edwards AFB.

>

> http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusivevids/ExclusiveVideo_F16_OutOfControl_YawDeparture_201012-1.html

>

> grumpy

> N184JM

>

> do not archive

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:39 am Post subject: Departure from controlled flight

Strangely, I can't wait to do some slips in my '10... or maybe I just 

want to fly it.



I have zero experience in the '10 but I do like to slip aircraft.  

Probably because some of my initial training was in a Schweizer 2-22 

glider which had ineffective spoilers (yes, there is such a thing).  So 

what I'm saying below has nothing to do with the '10 and is just one 

pilot's observations.



While it's important to maintain airspeed, I found that slips generally 

required some back pressure to maintain speed and attitude.  I found 

this to be true in powered aircraft like my Maule and Cessnas as well as 

in gliders.  Conversly, I find myself naturally speeding up when I first 

do a slip in an unfamiliar aircraft.



When you really need to slip in order to steepen the approach and 

touchdown sooner, speeding up in a slip can create a problem when you 

come out of it with excess speed while trying to touch down.  

Furthermore, some aircraft's airspeed system is unreliable in a slip 

making attitude even more important.



I like to try out slips at altitude to get the attitude picture and 

stick feel when trimmed for normal approach. Then try them on approach 

to lock in the attitude picture. 



But all that's just because I like slips.  Like tailwheels, I'm not sure 

there are many real world  applications for approach steepening slips on 

aircraft with adequate flaps or brakes.



Anyway, thanks for flight reports.  I'm salivating.



Bill



jkreidler wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I would not describe the attitude of the -10 nose high when this happened to me.  I had the nose pointed down, albeit not too far, it was pointed down to maintain an 85 knot airspeed.  The lesson going forward is to not slip without flaps, the sub lesson is to keep the speed up when slipping (if necessary to slip without flaps), this will naturally point the nose further down.



 It did not feel anything like the entry of a spin, entering a spin usually causes the airplane to roll, this was just an abrupt yaw.  The airplane remained relatively flat, maybe a 10 degree wing drop.



 Spin training was not part of the transition training, neither were slips without flaps.



 Thanks, Jason





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 58241#258241

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Departure from controlled flight

"I'm not sure 

there are many real world applications for approach steepening slips on 

aircraft with adequate flaps or brakes."



Normally, maybe not. But what about abnormal? e.g., an in-flight fire takes out the electrical system (no flaps now), and there's a nice airport right below you. Sure be nice to slip as much as possible.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:35 am Post subject: Departure from controlled flight

No doubt!



I'm sitting here trying imagine the scenario... thinking Nomex would be 

good. 



I've had an electrical connection burn through and fill the (tiny) 

cockpit with smoke.  Very memorable.  Couldn't get on the ground fast 

enough.  Problem was all I had was flaps.  Very effective flaps but it 

was a glider!  Hard to describe the manuevering I did to get down.  Talk 

about some bad wiring.. and I did it.



Anyway,  the slip would be very useful in the scenario you describe, 

especially to lose altitude initially.    But it would be a sad thing to 

continue the slip through final approach and mishandle the plane enough 

to depart controlled flight  200' off the deck and spin in.  Being less 

than proficient in no-flaps slips combined with the panic of anything 

having to do with an airborne fire.



Interesting scenario.



Bill 'oil access door' Watson

40605



Bob Turner wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 "I'm not sure 

 there are many real world applications for approach steepening slips on 

 aircraft with adequate flaps or brakes."



 Normally, maybe not. But what about abnormal? e.g., an in-flight fire takes out the electrical system (no flaps now), and there's a nice airport right below you. Sure be nice to slip as much as possible.



 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 58554#258554

rbibb

Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 37

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:18 am Post subject: Departure from controlled flight

I just believe it is better to be familiar with how you aircraft handles in

all configurations based on having experiences and practiced them at safe

altitude rather than discovering them during the obvious stress-inducing

climate of an actual in-flight emergency.



I might not need a no-flap, slip to landing except only during an emergency;

then I will probably REALLY need it and it would be nice to have done one or

two beforehand....



Richard Bibb

972-771-2598

972-835-5979 mobile

 

 

--

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