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gmosh(at)charter.net
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 Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:39 am Post subject: wet pump vs. dry |
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Has anyone switched from wet vacuum pumps to the dry variety. A rebuild of my recently failed wet pump was quoted at $800.00. Relatively speaking, a brand new dry pump looks to be a bargain (at) $500.00
My vac unit for the left engine is mounted on the bottom end of a "T" which also drives the hydraulic pump. I'm considering swapping the wet pump off the right engine -which is mounted directly to the accessory case - and replace that pump with the dry unit. By mounting the dry pump on the right engine it would attach to the back of the engine in the conventional manner.
Comments? Recommendations...My Commander is a straight 560 with GO-480B engines
Gary
[quote][b]
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yourtcfg(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:54 pm Post subject: wet pump vs. dry |
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Stay with the wet pump. They are much more reliable and last much longer. Also, there is no approved replacement for your application. On another note, what propellers do you have?? I have a pair of "MV" propellers that I believe will fit your airplane. No AD inspection. They are like new and have about 200hr since O/H with new hubs, clamps and bearings. jb
--
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moe-rosspistons(at)hotmai
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:21 am Post subject: wet pump vs. dry |
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Gary,
Please stay with the wet pump. The dry pumps have a very high failure rate, whereas the wet pumps seem to last almost indefinitely. With the dry pumps you should never turn the prop backward (which sometimes happens when shutting the engine down) whereas, with the wet pumps it makes no difference.
Regards,
Moe Mills
N680RR
680Fp
Proud Holder of The Golden Pedal Award
From: Gary Moshluk (gmosh(at)charter.net)
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 11:38 AM
To: Commander Chat (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: wet pump vs. dry
Has anyone switched from wet vacuum pumps to the dry variety. A rebuild of my recently failed wet pump was quoted at $800.00. Relatively speaking, a brand new dry pump looks to be a bargain (at) $500.00
My vac unit for the left engine is mounted on the bottom end of a "T" which also drives the hydraulic pump. I'm considering swapping the wet pump off the right engine -which is mounted directly to the accessory case - and replace that pump with the dry unit. By mounting the dry pump on the right engine it would attach to the back of the engine in the conventional manner.
Comments? Recommendations...My Commander is a straight 560 with GO-480B engines
Gary
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.c
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:14 pm Post subject: wet pump vs. dry |
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Garry,
I can only echo Moe’s recommendation 110%, stay as far away from carbon vane dry pumps as you can, not only a high propensity to failure, but they “fail hard”, seemingly at random, no gradual loss of vacuum.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe-rosspistons
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 10:20 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: wet pump vs. dry
Gary,
Please stay with the wet pump. The dry pumps have a very high failure rate, whereas the wet pumps seem to last almost indefinitely. With the dry pumps you should never turn the prop backward (which sometimes happens when shutting the engine down) whereas, with the wet pumps it makes no difference.
Regards,
Moe Mills
N680RR
680Fp
Proud Holder of The Golden Pedal Award
From: Gary Moshluk (gmosh(at)charter.net)
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 11:38 AM
To: Commander Chat (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: wet pump vs. dry
Has anyone switched from wet vacuum pumps to the dry variety. A rebuild of my recently failed wet pump was quoted at $800.00. Relatively speaking, a brand new dry pump looks to be a bargain (at) $500.00
My vac unit for the left engine is mounted on the bottom end of a "T" which also drives the hydraulic pump. I'm considering swapping the wet pump off the right engine -which is mounted directly to the accessory case - and replace that pump with the dry unit. By mounting the dry pump on the right engine it would attach to the back of the engine in the conventional manner.
Comments? Recommendations...My Commander is a straight 560 with GO-480B engines
Gary
| Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c |
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[quote][b]
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:54 pm Post subject: wet pump vs. dry |
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Good Evening Bill,
Interesting conversation concerning vacuum pumps. Personally, I like the dry pumps. They are lighter cheaper, and do not throw oil all over the belly or nacelle as the case may be.
Properly set up wet pumps with a good oil separator can run reasonably clean, but most are rather dirty. The dry pumps can be monitored and, if changed when they start to throw carbon, can have quite high reliability numbers. When mounted on a twin, the reliability is excellent. If you need a pneumatic system to operate boots, that is another story, but I really like being all electric!
On my own airplane, I have eliminated all of the pneumatic instruments and gone all electric. Vacuum instruments are, very truthfully, World War One technology. They were bordering on antiquity by WWII.
I do not have any knowledge about certification problems with Commanders, but, for most aircraft, going all electric is easy.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
LL22
In a message dated 8/18/2009 10:14:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au writes:
| Quote: |
Garry,
I can only echo Moe’s recommendation 110%, stay as far away from carbon vane dry pumps as you can, not only a high propensity to failure, but they “fail hard”, seemingly at random, no gradual loss of vacuum.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe-rosspistons
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 10:20 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: wet pump vs. dry
Gary,
Please stay with the wet pump. The dry pumps have a very high failure rate, whereas the wet pumps seem to last almost indefinitely. With the dry pumps you should never turn the prop backward (which sometimes happens when shutting the engine down) whereas, with the wet pumps it makes no difference.
Regards,
Moe Mills
N680RR
680Fp
Proud Holder of The Golden Pedal Award
From: Gary Moshluk (gmosh(at)charter.net)
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 11:38 AM
To: Commander Chat (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Commander-List: wet pump vs. dry
Has anyone switched from wet vacuum pumps to the dry variety. A rebuild of my recently failed wet pump was quoted at $800.00. Relatively speaking, a brand new dry pump looks to be a bargain (at) $500.00
My vac unit for the left engine is mounted on the bottom end of a "T" which also drivesthe hydraulic pump. I'm considering swapping the wet pumpoff the right engine -which is mounted directly to the accessory case - and replace that pump with the dry unit. By mounting the dry pump on the right engine it would attach to the back of the engine in the conventional manner.
Comments? Recommendations...My Commander is a straight 560 with GO-480B engines
Gary
| Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c |
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[quote][b]
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wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.c
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:53 pm Post subject: wet pump vs. dry |
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Hello, Bob,
I certainly agree about dirty bellies (free corrosion proofing) and if it was a one very careful owner/operator, maybe, but our stats. are pretty conclusive. At least with any Commander, not too much of a problem getting at the underside of the engine cowls. I have oil/air separators, and the modified breathers, because of the Cleveland brakes.
As for your other comments, more than a grain of truth, and on my 500A, I have done serious surgery on the instruments, so that I have a split between electric and vacuum instruments.
The main AI is 115/400 from a large inverter, with a standby inverter just big enough to run the AI only, there is a 2.5 inch standby AI on 28v dc from a hot battery bus (only a cb, not through the electrical master) and a 28v DC turn and slip, off a main bus. The CDI is a Collins PN 101, also running the RMI and the A/P heading. On the right side, the vacuum AI is connected to the Century 111, so I’m not normally looking at the same attitude indication as the auto-pilot, and there is a vacuum DG for anybody flying from the right seat --- which has full panel except for the bat and ball.
Bottom line, I have to lose both alternators, both vacuum pumps and run the batteries (Hawker Power Cells) flat to not have at least one AI.
I am really looking forward to getting the old girl back in the air.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
PS: I am hoping to be able to mount the main inverter, a big sod, weights about 28 lbs., far enough back that I can fly two up without ballast in the baggage locker, they all go better if you can keep close to the aft CG. I am also looking at a field mod to use auto HID lights for the landing lights, then I can have real flamethrowers, without temperature/overheating worries ------ you never know what wildlife – two or four legs --- you are likely to find, some of the place I go.
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 1:47 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: wet pump vs. dry
Good Evening Bill,
Interesting conversation concerning vacuum pumps. Personally, I like the dry pumps. They are lighter cheaper, and do not throw oil all over the belly or nacelle as the case may be.
Properly set up wet pumps with a good oil separator can run reasonably clean, but most are rather dirty. The dry pumps can be monitored and, if changed when they start to throw carbon, can have quite high reliability numbers. When mounted on a twin, the reliability is excellent. If you need a pneumatic system to operate boots, that is another story, but I really like being all electric!
On my own airplane, I have eliminated all of the pneumatic instruments and gone all electric. Vacuum instruments are, very truthfully, World War One technology. They were bordering on antiquity by WWII.
I do not have any knowledge about certification problems with Commanders, but, for most aircraft, going all electric is easy.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
LL22
In a message dated 8/18/2009 10:14:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au writes:
| Quote: |
Garry,
I can only echo Moe’s recommendation 110%, stay as far away from carbon vane dry pumps as you can, not only a high propensity to failure, but they “fail hard”, seemingly at random, no gradual loss of vacuum.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe-rosspistons
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 10:20 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: wet pump vs. dry
Gary,
Please stay with the wet pump. The dry pumps have a very high failure rate, whereas the wet pumps seem to last almost indefinitely. With the dry pumps you should never turn the prop backward (which sometimes happens when shutting the engine down) whereas, with the wet pumps it makes no difference.
Regards,
Moe Mills
N680RR
680Fp
Proud Holder of The Golden Pedal Award
From: Gary Moshluk (gmosh(at)charter.net)
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 11:38 AM
To: Commander Chat (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: wet pump vs. dry
Has anyone switched from wet vacuum pumps to the dry variety. A rebuild of my recently failed wet pump was quoted at $800.00. Relatively speaking, a brand new dry pump looks to be a bargain (at) $500.00
My vac unit for the left engine is mounted on the bottom end of a "T" which also drives the hydraulic pump. I'm considering swapping the wet pump off the right engine -which is mounted directly to the accessory case - and replace that pump with the dry unit. By mounting the dry pump on the right engine it would attach to the back of the engine in the conventional manner.
Comments? Recommendations...My Commander is a straight 560 with GO-480B engines
Gary
| Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution |
0
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| | - The Matronics Commander-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
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John Vormbaum
Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:17 pm Post subject: wet pump vs. dry |
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A very interesting conversation. I would love to go all electric, although I have boots on my 500B. They're shot, and I need new ones. I will get them, as I consider them valuable emergency equipment. I don't have much problem with oil on the nacelles etc. and would keep my wet pumps anyway since they rarely (and almost never catastrophically) fail.
Actually, though, what this tells me is that I REALLY need to meet Old Bob & Bill Hamilton sometime soon and really keep my ears open. At 41, I will certainly be finished flying before I learn all the things that you two have forgotten already. It would be quite a treat to listen to the two of you having a conversation. Any chance you can make it to Reno, CA USA for the Commander fly-in? I'll have cold beer waiting! Ilinois is close enough....Bill, you're in Australia, right? Perhaps Russell or Richard can pack you with them when they come?
Cheers,
/John
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Hamilton
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 9:53 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: wet pump vs. dry
Hello, Bob,
I certainly agree about dirty bellies (free corrosion proofing) and if it was a one very careful owner/operator, maybe, but our stats. are pretty conclusive. At least with any Commander, not too much of a problem getting at the underside of the engine cowls. I have oil/air separators, and the modified breathers, because of the Cleveland brakes.
As for your other comments, more than a grain of truth, and on my 500A, I have done serious surgery on the instruments, so that I have a split between electric and vacuum instruments.
The main AI is 115/400 from a large inverter, with a standby inverter just big enough to run the AI only, there is a 2.5 inch standby AI on 28v dc from a hot battery bus (only a cb, not through the electrical master) and a 28v DC turn and slip, off a main bus. The CDI is a Collins PN 101, also running the RMI and the A/P heading. On the right side, the vacuum AI is connected to the Century 111, so I’m not normally looking at the same attitude indication as the auto-pilot, and there is a vacuum DG for anybody flying from the right seat --- which has full panel except for the bat and ball.
Bottom line, I have to lose both alternators, both vacuum pumps and run the batteries (Hawker Power Cells) flat to not have at least one AI.
I am really looking forward to getting the old girl back in the air.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
PS: I am hoping to be able to mount the main inverter, a big sod, weights about 28 lbs., far enough back that I can fly two up without ballast in the baggage locker, they all go better if you can keep close to the aft CG. I am also looking at a field mod to use auto HID lights for the landing lights, then I can have real flamethrowers, without temperature/overheating worries ------ you never know what wildlife – two or four legs --- you are likely to find, some of the place I go.
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 1:47 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: wet pump vs. dry
Good Evening Bill,
Interesting conversation concerning vacuum pumps. Personally, I like the dry pumps. They are lighter cheaper, and do not throw oil all over the belly or nacelle as the case may be.
Properly set up wet pumps with a good oil separator can run reasonably clean, but most are rather dirty. The dry pumps can be monitored and, if changed when they start to throw carbon, can have quite high reliability numbers. When mounted on a twin, the reliability is excellent. If you need a pneumatic system to operate boots, that is another story, but I really like being all electric!
On my own airplane, I have eliminated all of the pneumatic instruments and gone all electric. Vacuum instruments are, very truthfully, World War One technology. They were bordering on antiquity by WWII.
I do not have any knowledge about certification problems with Commanders, but, for most aircraft, going all electric is easy.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
LL22
In a message dated 8/18/2009 10:14:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au writes:
| Quote: |
Garry,
I can only echo Moe’s recommendation 110%, stay as far away from carbon vane dry pumps as you can, not only a high propensity to failure, but they “fail hard”, seemingly at random, no gradual loss of vacuum.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe-rosspistons
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 10:20 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: wet pump vs. dry
Gary,
Please stay with the wet pump. The dry pumps have a very high failure rate, whereas the wet pumps seem to last almost indefinitely. With the dry pumps you should never turn the prop backward (which sometimes happens when shutting the engine down) whereas, with the wet pumps it makes no difference.
Regards,
Moe Mills
N680RR
680Fp
Proud Holder of The Golden Pedal Award
From: Gary Moshluk (gmosh(at)charter.net)
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 11:38 AM
To: Commander Chat (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: wet pump vs. dry
Has anyone switched from wet vacuum pumps to the dry variety. A rebuild of my recently failed wet pump was quoted at $800.00. Relatively speaking, a brand new dry pump looks to be a bargain (at) $500.00
My vac unit for the left engine is mounted on the bottom end of a "T" which also drives the hydraulic pump. I'm considering swapping the wet pump off the right engine -which is mounted directly to the accessory case - and replace that pump with the dry unit. By mounting the dry pump on the right engine it would attach to the back of the engine in the conventional manner.
Comments? Recommendations...My Commander is a straight 560 with GO-480B engines
Gary
| Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution |
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:22 am Post subject: wet pump vs. dry |
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Good Morning John,
Thank you for the very kind words.
I have tried to fit a Commander meeting into my schedule. So far, other commitments have kept me away. Haven't flown a Commander for over forty years, but I really enjoyed the early ones.
Being a Beech dealer in the sixties and seventies cut into my Commander flying, but the memories have always held tight to my heart.
Thanks again and I am sure you will have a blast.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 8/19/2009 12:17:59 A.M. Central Daylight Time, john(at)vormbaum.com writes:
| Quote: | A very interesting conversation. I would love to go all electric, although I have boots on my 500B. They're shot, and I need new ones. I will get them, as I consider them valuable emergency equipment. I don't have much problem with oil on the nacelles etc. and would keep my wet pumps anyway since they rarely (and almost never catastrophically) fail.
Actually, though, what this tells me is that I REALLY need to meet Old Bob & Bill Hamilton sometime soon and really keep my ears open. At 41, I will certainly be finished flying before I learn all the things that you two have forgotten already. It would be quite a treat to listen to the two of you having a conversation. Any chance you can make it to Reno, CA USA for the Commander fly-in? I'll have cold beer waiting! Ilinois is close enough....Bill, you're in Australia, right? Perhaps Russell or Richard can pack you with them when they come?
Cheers,
/John
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Hamilton
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 9:53 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: wet pump vs. dry
Hello, Bob,
I certainly agree about dirty bellies (free corrosion proofing) and if it was a one very careful owner/operator, maybe, but our stats. are pretty conclusive. At least with any Commander, not too much of a problem getting at the underside of the engine cowls. I have oil/air separators, and the modified breathers, because of the Cleveland brakes.
As for your other comments, more than a grain of truth, and on my 500A, I have done serious surgery on the instruments, so that I have a split between electric and vacuum instruments.
The main AI is 115/400 from a large inverter, with a standby inverter just big enough to run the AI only, there is a 2.5 inch standby AI on 28v dc from a hot battery bus (only a cb, not through the electrical master) and a 28v DC turn and slip, off a main bus. The CDI is a Collins PN 101, also running the RMI and the A/P heading. On the right side, the vacuum AI is connected to the Century 111, so I’m not normally looking at the same attitude indication as the auto-pilot, and there is a vacuum DG for anybody flying from the right seat --- which has full panel except for the bat and ball.
Bottom line, I have to lose both alternators, both vacuum pumps and run the batteries (Hawker Power Cells) flat to not have at least one AI.
I am really looking forward to getting the old girl back in the air.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
PS: I am hoping to be able to mount the main inverter, a big sod, weights about 28 lbs., far enough back that I can fly two up without ballast in the baggage locker, they all go better if you can keep close to the aft CG. I am also looking at a field mod to use auto HID lights for the landing lights, then I can have real flamethrowers, without temperature/overheating worries ------ you never know what wildlife – two or four legs --- you are likely to find, some of the place I go.
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 1:47 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: wet pump vs. dry
Good Evening Bill,
Interesting conversation concerning vacuum pumps. Personally, I like the dry pumps. They are lighter cheaper, and do not throw oil all over the belly or nacelle as the case may be.
Properly set up wet pumps with a good oil separator can run reasonably clean, but most are rather dirty. The dry pumps can be monitored and, if changed when they start to throw carbon, can have quite high reliability numbers. When mounted on a twin, the reliability is excellent. If you need a pneumatic system to operate boots, that is another story, but I really like being all electric!
On my own airplane, I have eliminated all of the pneumatic instruments and gone all electric. Vacuum instruments are, very truthfully, World War One technology. They were bordering on antiquity by WWII.
I do not have any knowledge about certification problems with Commanders, but, for most aircraft, going all electric is easy.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
LL22
In a message dated 8/18/2009 10:14:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au writes:
| Quote: |
Garry,
I can only echo Moe’s recommendation 110%, stay as far away from carbon vane dry pumps as you can, not only a high propensity to failure, but they “fail hard”, seemingly at random, no gradual loss of vacuum.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe-rosspistons
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 10:20 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: wet pump vs. dry
Gary,
Please stay with the wet pump. The dry pumps have a very high failure rate, whereas the wet pumps seem to last almost indefinitely. With the dry pumps you should never turn the prop backward (which sometimes happens when shutting the engine down) whereas, with the wet pumps it makes no difference.
Regards,
Moe Mills
N680RR
680Fp
Proud Holder of The Golden Pedal Award
From: Gary Moshluk (gmosh(at)charter.net)
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 11:38 AM
To: Commander Chat (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: wet pump vs. dry
Has anyone switched from wet vacuum pumps to the dry variety. A rebuild of my recently failed wet pump was quoted at $800.00. Relatively speaking, a brand new dry pump looks to be a bargain (at) $500.00
My vac unit for the left engine is mounted on the bottom end of a "T" which also drives the hydraulic pump. I'm considering swapping the wet pump off the right engine -which is mounted directly to the accessory case - and replace that pump with the dry unit. By mounting the dry pump on the right engine it would attach to the back of the engine in the conventional manner.
Comments? Recommendations...My Commander is a straight 560 with GO-480B engines
Gary
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:54 am Post subject: wet pump vs. dry |
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Good Morning John,
Another thought!
Where are you located?
You might consider flying your Commander to the Beech Party held each fall at Tullahoma, Tennessee. This year it is between the seventh and the eleventh of October. It is the yearly gathering of the flock for the Beechcraft Heritage Museum. One of the prime movers of our group flys a Turbo Commander so you would not be all alone!
Love to see you there.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 8/19/2009 12:17:59 A.M. Central Daylight Time, john(at)vormbaum.com writes:
| Quote: | A very interesting conversation. I would love to go all electric, although I have boots on my 500B. They're shot, and I need new ones. I will get them, as I consider them valuable emergency equipment. I don't have much problem with oil on the nacelles etc. and would keep my wet pumps anyway since they rarely (and almost never catastrophically) fail.
Actually, though, what this tells me is that I REALLY need to meet Old Bob & Bill Hamilton sometime soon and really keep my ears open. At 41, I will certainly be finished flying before I learn all the things that you two have forgotten already. It would be quite a treat to listen to the two of you having a conversation. Any chance you can make it to Reno, CA USA for the Commander fly-in? I'll have cold beer waiting! Ilinois is close enough....Bill, you're in Australia, right? Perhaps Russell or Richard can pack you with them when they come?
Cheers,
/John
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Hamilton
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 9:53 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: wet pump vs. dry
Hello, Bob,
I certainly agree about dirty bellies (free corrosion proofing) and if it was a one very careful owner/operator, maybe, but our stats. are pretty conclusive. At least with any Commander, not too much of a problem getting at the underside of the engine cowls. I have oil/air separators, and the modified breathers, because of the Cleveland brakes.
As for your other comments, more than a grain of truth, and on my 500A, I have done serious surgery on the instruments, so that I have a split between electric and vacuum instruments.
The main AI is 115/400 from a large inverter, with a standby inverter just big enough to run the AI only, there is a 2.5 inch standby AI on 28v dc from a hot battery bus (only a cb, not through the electrical master) and a 28v DC turn and slip, off a main bus. The CDI is a Collins PN 101, also running the RMI and the A/P heading. On the right side, the vacuum AI is connected to the Century 111, so I’m not normally looking at the same attitude indication as the auto-pilot, and there is a vacuum DG for anybody flying from the right seat --- which has full panel except for the bat and ball.
Bottom line, I have to lose both alternators, both vacuum pumps and run the batteries (Hawker Power Cells) flat to not have at least one AI.
I am really looking forward to getting the old girl back in the air.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
PS: I am hoping to be able to mount the main inverter, a big sod, weights about 28 lbs., far enough back that I can fly two up without ballast in the baggage locker, they all go better if you can keep close to the aft CG. I am also looking at a field mod to use auto HID lights for the landing lights, then I can have real flamethrowers, without temperature/overheating worries ------ you never know what wildlife – two or four legs --- you are likely to find, some of the place I go.
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 1:47 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: wet pump vs. dry
Good Evening Bill,
Interesting conversation concerning vacuum pumps. Personally, I like the dry pumps. They are lighter cheaper, and do not throw oil all over the belly or nacelle as the case may be.
Properly set up wet pumps with a good oil separator can run reasonably clean, but most are rather dirty. The dry pumps can be monitored and, if changed when they start to throw carbon, can have quite high reliability numbers. When mounted on a twin, the reliability is excellent. If you need a pneumatic system to operate boots, that is another story, but I really like being all electric!
On my own airplane, I have eliminated all of the pneumatic instruments and gone all electric. Vacuum instruments are, very truthfully, World War One technology. They were bordering on antiquity by WWII.
I do not have any knowledge about certification problems with Commanders, but, for most aircraft, going all electric is easy.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
LL22
In a message dated 8/18/2009 10:14:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au writes:
| Quote: |
Garry,
I can only echo Moe’s recommendation 110%, stay as far away from carbon vane dry pumps as you can, not only a high propensity to failure, but they “fail hard”, seemingly at random, no gradual loss of vacuum.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe-rosspistons
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 10:20 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: wet pump vs. dry
Gary,
Please stay with the wet pump. The dry pumps have a very high failure rate, whereas the wet pumps seem to last almost indefinitely. With the dry pumps you should never turn the prop backward (which sometimes happens when shutting the engine down) whereas, with the wet pumps it makes no difference.
Regards,
Moe Mills
N680RR
680Fp
Proud Holder of The Golden Pedal Award
From: Gary Moshluk (gmosh(at)charter.net)
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 11:38 AM
To: Commander Chat (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: wet pump vs. dry
Has anyone switched from wet vacuum pumps to the dry variety. A rebuild of my recently failed wet pump was quoted at $800.00. Relatively speaking, a brand new dry pump looks to be a bargain (at) $500.00
My vac unit for the left engine is mounted on the bottom end of a "T" which also drives the hydraulic pump. I'm considering swapping the wet pump off the right engine -which is mounted directly to the accessory case - and replace that pump with the dry unit. By mounting the dry pump on the right engine it would attach to the back of the engine in the conventional manner.
Comments? Recommendations...My Commander is a straight 560 with GO-480B engines
Gary
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