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Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic
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messydeer

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Bellingham, WA

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:44 am Post subject: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

Hello 



I'm posting my latest draft of my wiring schematic for a Jabiru 3300. There's no way I could have done this without the info provided by Bob and the members of this list. Very, very thankful for you guys!



Notes about the schematic



I may not go with a starter engaged light. I understand monitoring the system voltage would show a big drain if this were engaged. Not being a pilot and never having started an airplane engine leaves me at a bit of a disadvantage. 



I plan to get something like the Enigma. The basic unit would be able to monitor system voltage, but would alarm only for undervoltage. The alarm level is customizable. For me, I see little value putting in an ammeter shunt and getting an add-on IOX needed for this. Just more weight and expense.



I may not have an alternator disconnect light, either. So I would be notified of an OV situation by the CB being tripped and a bit later by the low voltage alarm in the EIS. 



Two aux power 'Powerelet' sockets. They are rated at 15A. I thought getting these higher capacity sockets might help speed recharging a dead battery.



Alternator disconnect relay placed in the AC output. If the regulator were to short out, the 25A inline fuse would burn up before the regulator sucked my battery empty, wouldn't it?



I got the starter 'security' ideas from the list archives. Forget who, exactly.  The two mag switches would both have to be lifted into the momentary on positions while the starter button is pushed. There would also need to be a plug inserted into a microphone jack to complete the starter switch circuit. 



I've posted other questions directly on the schematic. Lemme know how this all looks, when you have time!

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Dan

messydeer

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Bellingham, WA

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

Corrections and Additions



I corrected the mag wiring. Had 1-3 switches and called them 1-5. They're now 2-5 and I hope I have the switch,  mag P-lead and shield shown correctly.



Had shown the 'push start' which isn't needed, although I called it optional here. 



Swapped the strobe with the nav/pos light switch positions so the strobe can be turned off and the nav/pos left on.



Think those were the main things. Hopefully the fonts come out better. Having problem with software

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Dan

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:27 am Post subject: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

At 08:54 PM 8/20/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Corrections and Additions



I corrected the mag wiring. Had 1-3 switches and called them 1-5. 

They're now 2-5 and I hope I have the switch,  mag P-lead and shield 

shown correctly.



Had shown the 'push start' which isn't needed, although I called it 

optional here.



Swapped the strobe with the nav/pos light switch positions so the 

strobe can be turned off and the nav/pos left on.



Think those were the main things. Hopefully the fonts come out 

better. Having problem with software 


	


     My Adobe Acrobat application said there were errors

     in the .pdf file . . . but it seems to open okay.



     4AWG fat wires are probably unnecessary on this size

     system, 6AWG would do if your battery isn't behind the

     seat.



     8AWG alternator feeder is unnecessary, 13A alternator

     would wire up nicely with 12AWG.



     You show a tach signal off the AC widings of the altenrator.

     This will not be useful with the alternator disconnect relay

     open.



     The alternator OFF indicator lamp shown is not applicable

     to this architecture.



     If you have the recommended low volts warning light, then

     the alternator OFF warning lamp is somewhat redundant.



     You've already discovered the error in depiction of

     ignition/start switches. Recommend you deep-six the

     push button and the "secret started disable". In

     situations where you're required to present a "dead

     airplane" (like on static display at airshows) they'll

     want you to disconnect the battery.



     15A always hot feeders from batteries are frowned upon

     in the TC aircraft world.  Suggest you install a battery

     bus fuse block, feed each power socket from it's own

     5A or 7A fuse on 20AWG wire. The switch is redundant

     as simply pulling the plug out a tad disconnects the

     accessory.



     Don't understand the "stuff" that looks like an ammeter

     shunt connection in the (-) lead of the battery. I appears

     you may have taken a clue from the 'Connection about battery

     (-) current monitoring shunts. That's an aberration that

     needs to be removed . . . in fact will be at the next

     revision.



     25A in-line fuse to main bus is unnecessary but

     doesn't hurt . . . only adds complexity and more

     potential failure points.



     The 5A alternator breaker needs to mount right beside

     the DC power master switch. This is why the EXTENED

     BUS is protected with a fusible link right at the

     fuseblock terminal.



     Have you done a load-analysis to show that you have

     the snort necessary for night flight?



     Starter engaged light wire can be 22AWG.

     Bob . . .

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1921
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

Dan,

The 15 amp inline fuse connected to the battery is too small or else the 8awg wire is too big unless you are concerned about voltage drop over a long distance.



I question the purpose of the two wires connected to the ends of the cable that goes between the negative battery terminal and ground.  Are the wires measuring the voltage drop and thus the current through the battery?



Is the optional "Starter Engaged LED" to warn of a starter contactor that does not open the circuit after starting?



Isn't the B&C 505-1 an over-voltage module?  There is already an OVM connected to the master switch.  A second one is not needed.  Also, it appears to be wired wrong, being essentially in parallel with the alternator relay.  If the two wires from the 505-1 are open, it has no affect on the circuit.  If the two wires are shorted, the alternator relay no longer has control of the alternator.  The 5amp circuit breaker, bottom half of the master switch, and OVM would then have no control either.



The magneto shield should NOT be connected to the hot terminal of the mag switches.  Something bad will happen.



There are several single-point failure items in series with the electronic ignition, anyone of which can disable the ignition.  The battery contactor, 25amp inline fuse, 7amp fuse, mic key switch, or any of the associated wire terminals can open up and cause the engine to quit.  I suggest that one of the magnetos get its power directly from the battery or an essential bus.



The 3amp tach-signal inline fuse should not blow regardless of alternator voltage provided that the EIS input has a high impedance.



All of the inline fuses should be ATC or ATO type and not glass fuses.  See:

http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Data_Sheets/FHA.pdf

Digikey has a selection of fuse holders rated between 3 and 30 amps:

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/dksearch/dksus.dll?pname&site=us;lang=en&wt.mc_id=Dxn_US_T091_Catlink;name=283-2357-ND



Nice drawing.  What program did you use?

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

messydeer

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Bellingham, WA

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

 	  Quote: 	
		  4AWG fat wires are probably unnecessary on this size 

system, 6AWG would do if your battery isn't behind the 

seat. 	




That would be nice. I'll have to check, but I think I might have been following the crowd...you know, like how the ants do it? The term "emergence theory" comes to mind.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Recommend you deep-six the 

push button and the "secret started disable". 	




I was just trying to come up with an easy, keyless, dependable, and secure ignition system. From what you and others are showing me, "keyless" and "secure" may be the only two of the original four attributes left standing. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  15A always hot feeders from batteries are frowned upon 	




I didn't want to go with the weight and expense of a traditional ground power system confined to the engine compartment. I knew I'd prolly want a couple cigarette type sockets for small draw electrogizmos, too. Seems like there was a 12A recharger (Shumacher?) mentioned and the Powerlet  sockets and their plugs are rated 15A. So I put all of that together and came up with my aux power system.



The ONLY time I would ever want 15A would be for a recharge. So maybe instead I should look at separating things a bit. Seems like I'd heard of putting this type of socket FWF, accessed  through an oil door or something. Then I could downsize the aux power lines to 20awg, like you suggested.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Don't understand the "stuff" that looks like an ammeter 

shunt connection in the (-) lead of the battery. I appears 

you may have taken a clue from the 'Connection about battery 

(-) current monitoring shunts. 	




Bingo! That's where I got it from. I doubt I'd use one anyway, since I could get the system voltage without one.



 	  Quote: 	
		  25A in-line fuse to main bus is unnecessary 	




I thought it was more or less a rule to place fuses in all wires small enough to have a fuse and longer than a few inches.



 	  Quote: 	
		  The 5A alternator breaker needs to mount right beside 

the DC power master switch. This is why the EXTENED 

BUS is protected with a fusible link right at the 

fuseblock terminal. 	




Are you talking about the main bus to crowbar circuit? Z16 goes main bus-22awg fuselink-18awg wire-5A fuse-22awg wire-switch-red wire-crowbar-black wire-ground.



In my drawing, I put in 22awg in place of the 18awg. But I don't understand why both a fuselink AND a fuse are used. Also could use some help with why the wires change from 22-18-22. I'm guessing the red and black wires come with the OVM, so I don't need to figure that out.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Have you done a load-analysis to show that you have 

the snort necessary for night flight? 	




You mean enough juice for night flight? I'd have 10-12A, as I recall, going with a 15A Jab alternator. Speaking of which, is there a conversion ratio between US and AUS, similar to the dollars? They call it a 20A alternator, but I can only get 13A out of 200W that they site.



But I will prolly never do night flight in this bird, but would like to size the system as if I were to.



Thanks for all the info, including the few things I didn't ask follow ups on!

_________________
Dan

messydeer

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Bellingham, WA

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

Last post of mine was to reply to Bob, this is to Joe (as if you couldn't have figured that out by the following):



Hey, Joe!

 	  Quote: 	
		  The 15 amp inline fuse 	




Yeah, that was sized only on the 15A sockets and 12A recharger I had planned for that.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I question the purpose of the two wires connected to the ends of the cable that goes between the negative battery terminal and ground. Are the wires measuring the voltage drop and thus the current through the battery? 	




That was the idea. See above post. No longer planning on it, regardless of how it would best be wired. But it would have been for a shunt connected to an MGL Enigma IOX.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

Is the optional "Starter Engaged LED" to warn of a starter contactor that does not open the circuit after starting? 	




Yes.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Isn't the B&C 505-1 an over-voltage module? 	




It is their OVM kit. the crowbar connected to the master switch is part of that kit. Only one crowbar.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Also, it appears to be wired wrong 	




I had tried to just copy it. I'm running a bit late now, so I'll look at it later, thanks 



 	  Quote: 	
		  The magneto shield should NOT be connected to the hot terminal of the mag switches 	




I'll look at that, too. I'd thought I'd figured out how the shields are wired. It would be nice to get that straight. I don't want bad things to happen 



 	  Quote: 	
		  There are several single-point failure items in series with the electronic ignition, anyone of which can disable the ignition. The battery contactor, 25amp inline fuse, 7amp fuse, mic key switch, or any of the associated wire terminals can open up and cause the engine to quit. I suggest that one of the magnetos get its power directly from the battery or an essential bus. 	




I don't have electronic ignition. At least I don't think I do. 'dual transistorized magnetos' is what I've seen. I thought that everything electrical went TU, I'd still have spark and with a gravity fed fuel system, I could fly until the tank emptied.



But...I'm getting the distinct feeling that regardless of the gender of the iginition system, the design I've put forth is a bit complicated. Or I should just seek counsel from an electronic attorney?



I've ordered ATO fuses from either Digikey, Waytek, or B&C. Can't remember which, but they are ATO.



And thanks for the drawing compliment. I've spent hours resurrecting a small fraction of the small skills I had years ago with Adobe Illustrator. It's version 10, copyright 2002, I think, which was about the last time I used it. Would have saved me several hours if i had realized it converted the dwg files into ai vectors. I used the pdf files, which were for some reason all rasterized to Nova Scotia and back.

_________________
Dan

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:26 pm Post subject: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

At 04:22 PM 8/21/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 > Recommend you deep-six the

 > push button and the "secret started disable".



I was just trying to come up with an easy, keyless, dependable, and 

secure ignition system. From what you and others are showing me, 

"keyless" and "secure" may be the only two of the original four 

attributes left standing.


	


    Secure from what? Airplane theft and even accidents

    due to inadvertent starter engagement is very rare.

    You already have a very non-traditional starter-engage

    protocol that requires two switches to be raised from

    the mid-ON position. Just don't label the upper excursions

    START . . . that can be YOUR secret. The casual thief

    or dingy-brained switch-flipper isn't going to figure

    it out.



 	  Quote: 	
		   > 15A always hot feeders from batteries are frowned upon



I didn't want to go with the weight and expense of a traditional 

ground power system confined to the engine compartment. I knew I'd 

probably want a couple cigarette type sockets for small draw 

electrogizmos, too. Seems like there was a 12A recharger 

(Shumacher?) mentioned and the Powerlet  sockets and their plugs are 

rated 15A. So I put all of that together and came up with my aux power system.



The ONLY time I would ever want 15A would be for a recharge. So 

maybe instead I should look at separating things a bit. Seems like 

I'd heard of putting this type of socket FWF, accessed  through an 

oil door or something. Then I could downsize the aux power lines to 

20awg, like you suggested.


	


    Get a Schumacher 1562 series charger/maintainer. 2A

    output. WELL within the limits of your 5 or 7 amp

    battery bus feeders to a cigar lighter socket.



 	  Quote: 	
		   > Don't understand the "stuff" that looks like an ammeter

 > shunt connection in the (-) lead of the battery. I appears

 > you may have taken a clue from the 'Connection about battery

 > (-) current monitoring shunts.



Bingo! That's where I got it from. I doubt I'd use one anyway, since 

I could get the system voltage without one.


	


   Okay, if you HAVE an ammeter input to your engine

   instrumentation system, recommend you use it to monitor

   alternator LOAD. You only have 13.5A to play with

   and things add up quickly. Particular attention needs

   to be paid to the interval right after takeoff when the

   alternator is huffing to get the battery recharged . . .

   you need ALL the excess capacity you can put your hands

   on and knowing when it's all used up is a very useful

   bit of flight management knowledge.



 	  Quote: 	
		   > 25A in-line fuse to main bus is unnecessary



I thought it was more or less a rule to place fuses in all wires 

small enough to have a fuse and longer than a few inches.


	


   Not for power distribution feeders of

   fat wires.



 	  Quote: 	
		   > The 5A alternator breaker needs to mount right beside

 > the DC power master switch. This is why the EXTENED

 > BUS is protected with a fusible link right at the

 > fuseblock terminal.



Are you talking about the main bus to crowbar circuit? Z16 goes main 

bus-22awg fuselink-18awg wire-5A fuse-22awg wire-switch-red 

wire-crowbar-black wire-ground.


	


   Yes . . . 5A breaker is a circuit protection

   remotely mounted from the main bus which is self

   contained within the fuseblock. Hence, the feeder

   that extends your bus to the 5A breaker next to the

   DC PWR MASTER switch needs ROBUST protection like

   a fusible link or MANL current limiter.

 	  Quote: 	
		  In my drawing, I put in 22awg in place of the 18awg. But I don't 

understand why both a fuselink AND a fuse are used. Also could use 

some help with why the wires change from 22-18-22. I'm guessing the 

red and black wires come with the OVM, so I don't need to figure that out.


	


   Yes, see:



http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Products/9003_B&C/OVM-14_C.jpg



   depending on the revision level, the RED wire may

   be some other color but black is always ground

   and the other color is (+).



   Where did you see a fusible link and a fuse? I show

   a fusible link and a BREAKER. The upstream fusible

   link needs to be 10x more robust than the breaker

   so that a nuisance trip opens the breaker (which

   you can reach) and not the fusible link (which

   you cannot reach . . . and couldn't do anything

   about it if you could).

 	  Quote: 	
		   > Have you done a load-analysis to show that you have

 > the snort necessary for night flight?

You mean enough juice for night flight? I'd have 10-12A, as I 

recall, going with a 15A Jab alternator. Speaking of which, is there 

a conversion ratio between US and AUS, similar to the dollars? They 

call it a 20A alternator, but I can only get 13A out of 200W that they cite.



But I will prolly never do night flight in this bird, but would like 

to size the system as if I were to.



Thanks for all the info, including the few things I didn't ask follow ups on!


	


    Okay, traditional nav lights are the biggest ENERGY hoggs

    on an airplane (6+ amps for duration of flight). If you're

    planning on LED nav lights, it's another matter. But in

    any case, make yourself a chart of loads (and proof it during

    your flight testing) to establish a protocol of what electro-

    whizzies can be turned on and still leave something extra

    for recharging a battery.



    On same topic, Joe offers:

 	  Quote: 	
		  There are several single-point failure items in series with the 

electronic ignition, anyone of which can disable the ignition.  The 

battery contactor, 25amp inline fuse, 7amp fuse, mic key switch, or 

any of the associated wire terminals can open up and cause the 

engine to quit.  I suggest that one of the magnetos get its power 

directly from the battery or an essential bus.


	


    I believe the ignition systems on this engine are similar

    to those found on Rotax and even some lawn mowers. They

    are self-powered by means of magnets on the flywheel but

    utilize some electronics for control and timing features.

    They do not get power from the ship's electrical system

    and are treated much the same as a traditional magneto:

    Switch closed - engine doesn't run. Switch open - engine runs.

 	  Quote: 	
		  The 3amp tach-signal inline fuse should not blow regardless of 

alternator voltage provided that the EIS input has a high impedance.


	


    I doubt that his engine instrumentation (unless specifically

    designed for this engine) uses the alternator waveform frequency

    to deduce engine RPM. But if it does, you need to treat the

    AC signal to the tach as if it were attached to a significant

    energy source . . . that can burn wires. Any fuse in the 1 to 3

    amp range would be fine. Some tachs might work fine with a 1000

    ohm, 2W resistor in series with the tach signal lead. This too

    would current limit the fault on the tach signal wire.

The magneto shield should NOT be connected to the hot terminal of the 

mag switches.  Something bad will happen.



    It's a common convention to use the p-lead shield (grounded

    at the engine end) to provide a magneto-killing ground at

    the panel end when the magneto is switched off. Further,

    the p-lead shields should get to ground ONLY at the engine

    end to avoid crafting a ground-loop . . .



    Bob . . .

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1921
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

Dan,

The reason that I assumed (incorrectly) that you have electronic ignition is because the schematic shows a 7amp fuse supplying power to the mag switches.  You need to replace the mag switches with double pole switches, one pole for the start circuit and one pole for grounding out the magneto.  Move the hot wire to the second pole (for the start circuit) and then nothing bad will happen.

   Another option that would simplify things is to separate the start circuit from the magneto switches like Z-20.  You could go directly from the 7amp fuse to the start push button without any other switches.  Or you can keep the key switch in the circuit, either your mic plug or a real key switch or even a hidden switch.  The Department of Homeland Security is concerned about a stolen Sonex being flown into a skyscraper.    One advantage to keeping the mags and starter separate is that you can crank the engine with the mags off if desired for testing or maintenance.

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

messydeer

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Bellingham, WA

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

 	  Quote: 	
		  Okay, if you HAVE an ammeter input to your engine 

instrumentation system, recommend you use it to monitor 

alternator LOAD. 	




I'm planning on getting an Enigma. As I understand it, the stand alone instrument will give the system voltage without an additional shunt. So I assume voltage would be measured on either side of it's own load, or somehow reference the measurement to ground. Not clear on that. 



If I want to measure current elsewhere, I need to get a separate shunt, or as they suggest, use the part of the system itself as a shunt. With any luck, I'll upload a their diagram of this.



So now I can monitor current wherever I place this shunt. Well, not quite. I have to buy their Input Output eXtender (IOX), a decent sized piece of hardware that the shunt wires plug into. There are several other fancy things that can be done with this IOX, but for me, there wouldn't be much else to use it for. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  The upstream fusible 

link needs to be 10x more robust than the breaker 

so that a nuisance trip opens the breaker 	




Oh! I'd thought the fuselink was LESS robust than the breaker. Makes sense now 



And I meant earlier to say breaker but put fuse instead. Fuselink and breaker, fuselink and breaker. Okay, think I got it.



 	  Quote: 	
		  It's a common convention to use the p-lead shield (grounded 

at the engine end) to provide a magneto-killing ground at 

the panel end when the magneto is switched off. Further, 

the p-lead shields should get to ground ONLY at the engine 

end to avoid crafting a ground-loop . . . 	




Is this what you see in my diagrams? I took the Z diagram and extended both the p_lead and the shield to show them hooked up at both ends. In the second diagram, I added the ground triangle to show that the dots connected to the little hoops went to ground.



I've learned alot, Bob, thanks. Lots more to go!

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Dan

messydeer

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Bellingham, WA

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

Joe:



 	  Quote: 	
		  You need to replace the mag switches with double pole switches, one pole for the start circuit and one pole for grounding out the magneto. 	




Isn't that what I show in the 2nd diagram, i.e. my diagram from my second post in this thread?



 	  Quote: 	
		  One advantage to keeping the mags and starter separate is that you can crank the engine with the mags off if desired for testing or maintenance 	




Actually, I've been trying to come up with a way to use two switches that would allow just this. It is an adaptation of what Bob described in Note 2 of the Z chapter. It was pointed out to me that my adaptation doesn't allow for dual mags at starting. I didn't think that was an issue, but maybe it is?

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Dan

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1921
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:43 am Post subject: Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

Dan,

  You are right.  You do have two pole switches.  I was looking at the wrong (original) schematic that you posted and not the updated one.  I was wondering why no one else commented on the hot wire going to the magneto shield.  Looking at the updated schematic with a file size of 324.58 KB, the starting circuit and mag switch circuit look fine.  I see nothing unsafe.

 	  Quote: 	
		  It was pointed out to me that my adaptation doesn't allow for dual mags at starting. 	
Unless I am missing something, both mags will be on when the switches are in the start position. 	  Quote: 	
		  As I understand it, the stand alone instrument will give the system voltage without an additional shunt. So I assume voltage would be measured on either side of it's own load, 	
I'm not sure what you mean by that.  But the EFIS should provide the voltage readout without connecting any wires other than those that power up the EFIS.  The IOEX seems like extra weight and expense just to measure current.  I read the calibration procedure at http://www.mglavionics.com/IOEX.pdf.   The most useful location for a current sensor is in the alternator output.  The shunt could be in series with the alternator output between the 10000 microfarad capacitor and the 25amp fuse on your schematic.  The easy calibration method would be to use a shunt of known resistance.  Using the aircraft wire in lieu of a shunt will save weight and expense but will make calibrating more difficult because they want the unit calibrated with the engine off.  You would have to temporarily remove that #8awg wire from the capacitor and connect it to a battery and measure the current with a portable meter and enter that information into the EFIS.  Actually 8awg is much too big as Bob said.  If you intend to use that wire as a shunt, it needs to be small enough (or long enough) to have a voltage drop from end to end.  Perhaps 16awg would work.  Regardless of the type of shunt used, the signal wires going back to the IOEX need to be protected with fuses or fuselinks.  The positive signal wire should be connected to the end of the shunt closest to the capacitor.

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:49 am Post subject: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

If I want to measure current elsewhere, I need to get a separate 

shunt, or as they suggest, use the part of the system itself as a 

shunt. With any luck, I'll upload a their diagram of this.



   Where do they suggest this? I've poked around in

   their downloads and was unable to find an install

   manual for their i/o extender.



So now I can monitor current wherever I place this shunt. Well, not 

quite. I have to buy their Input Output eXtender (IOX), a decent 

sized piece of hardware that the shunt wires plug into. There are 

several other fancy things that can be done with this IOX, but for 

me, there wouldn't be much else to use it for.



   Then leave it off. It's a lot of money to spend

   for so little useful data.



   If you can accurately know the system voltage, then

   it's easy to deduce whether or not the alternator

   is keeping up, is over-burdened, or broke.

        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

messydeer

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Bellingham, WA

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

Bob and Joe:



Joe gave the link, I think. Here's what I read, starting on page 3: 

 	  Quote: 	
		  Current monitoring

The I/O Extender provides a bi-directional current monitoring system. This is intended to

measure the charge and discharge currents to and from the aircraft battery.

Current is measured indirectly by measuring the small voltage drop created by current flowing

through a suitable shunt resistor. Typical shunt resistors are in the range of 0.010 ohm (10

milli-ohm) to 30 milli ohm. However, the current measuring system has been designed to

accept any shunt. In particular, you can usually use the +12V supply cable from the battery +

terminal to the power distribution system as a suitable shunt. Connect the I/O Extender shunt

terminals using two wires (these can be thin wires) to each side of the cable connecting the

battery + terminal to the current distribution system.

In this scheme, large, temporary current users such as electrical starter motors should NOT

be routed through the shunt. These should be wired directly to the battery via their starter

solenoids using adequately dimensioned cable.

Calibrating the shunt (known current):

The I/O Extender needs to know the resistance of the shunt in order to correctly calculate the

current flowing through it.

Our suggested method involves using a cheap digital or analog multimeter (they tend to have

a 10A DC range). Wire this meter in series with the shunt and switch some electrical users on

so you have a reasonable current flow (for example 2 – 4 A). Do not run the engine or have

any charging active for this calibration.

Using the connected EFIS, activate the current calibration and enter the amount of current

your meter is reporting.

Calibrating the shunt (known resistance):

If you are using a shunt with a known resistance, use the provided functions in the EFIS

system to set the shunt resistance value. This method does not require the use of a current

meter for calibration although we would recommend that you verify the current reported using

a current meter to ensure that your shunt resistance is correct.

Calibrating the “zero current” point.

This is a calibration that has happened at the factory but you can perform it yourself if

needed. The idea is to ensure that the I/O Extender returns a “0” current flow if no current is

flowing through the shunt.

For this, disconnect one of the wires to the shunt and connect it to the other side of the shunt.

Both wires will not be connected to the same side of the shunt (it does not matter which side).

Once this has been done, perform the “set current zero” calibration function in your EFIS

system.

Polarity of the shunt wires:

For correct operation the shunt wires should be connected so that Shunt + terminal connects

to the battery + terminal and Shunt – connects to the load.

This will ensure that charge current with be reflected as positive current reading while

discharge current will be reflected as negative reading.

About current measurement:

All current calibration should be done using DC current.

The I/O Extender system measures “average” current. This is NOT “RMS”. Many meters

cannot accurately measure A/C or pulsating currents. They can only give a good reading if

they are measuring a sine-wave (such as mains power).

Current through a typical aircraft shunt is best described as “pulsed A/C”. The charging

system provides short but powerful current bursts to the battery while the time between the

bursts the battery supplies current to the load. The battery is effectively changing between

charge and discharge all the time very rapidly.

The I/O Extender averages current measurements in both directions and returns the

averaged result of this. This shows the net charge or discharge current.

A normal battery, when fully charged, will show a small residual charging current (assuming

the charger is not overcharging the battery). This charging current is required to maintain the

battery charge as it is supplying current all the time (between the pulsed charge current). The

battery, depending on its chemistry has a charge efficiency of around 80% so it needs a

constant charge under these conditions. 	




 	  Quote: 	
		  Unless I am missing something, both mags will be on when the switches are in the start position. 	




The file "note 2 starter mods 3.pdf" diagram 3 shows the upper switch closing the starter circuit, but the switches mag circuit is grounded by the red jumper. It may be confusing because I also label both switches as 'left mag'. 



So I've played around with the mag wiring and replaced the lower single pole switch with another 2-5 double pole switch. Please see how the new wiring looks in the attachment here.



I hope I have it setup so the left mag would be used as the main start switch with both mags hot. The right switch would crank but not start, if the left switch is left off. The engine could also be started by the right switch when the left mag is 'on'. I don't intend for this config to ever be used, as it would then only have one mag firing.

Note 2 both mags start mod.pdf

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_________________
Dan

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1921
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

Dan,

In addition to the 4 combinations that you have in http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=17457

there are 4 more:

Left switch down and right one centered

Left switch centered and right one up

Left switch centered and right one down

Left switch up and right one down

Would there ever be a situation where one would want to start the engine on the right mag without using the left switch?

There could be a safety issue if someone unfamiliar with your plane turned on a mag switch and the engine cranked unexpectedly.

You have put a lot of thought into this and did a good job.  It is complicated and would be hard for me to remember what switch position does what.  Of course I suffer from CRS syndrome.     If it were my plane, I would use two single-pole, single-throw switches for the magnetos, and a momentary push button in series with a security switch to start the engine.  But to each his own.

  Getting back to the The I/O Extender.  	  Quote: 	
		  . . . . .provides a bi-directional current monitoring system. This is intended to measure the charge and discharge currents to and from the aircraft battery. 	


Measuring the current in or out of the battery is not very useful information because the battery does not supply energy to the aircraft under normal operations, the alternator does.  Most homebuilders measure the output of the alternator, not the charging current of the battery.  Even though MGL suggests installing a shunt in the battery circuit, their ammeter will work just fine with the shunt installed in the alternator output wire.

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

messydeer

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Bellingham, WA

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

Hey, Joe 



My objective is to explore the possibility of eliminating the push start button by integrating it's function into two 2-5 switches. I am indeed concerned about the intuitiveness (not sure if that's a word, but let's go with it) of the start sequence. 



There are two separate switches, each capable of starting the engine. In a 3 switch system, where there is a push starter switch, the mag switches are flipped into the 'on' position and the starter button is pushed. The same thing here, mag switches are flipped into the 'on' position. The only thing that differs is there is no start button. Instead lift the left switch into the momentary 'start' position, which to me sounds very similar to starting my car which also has a momentary 'start' feature. If I forget and start with the right mag, no worries, it will start.



And if there is an in-flight need to restart and it doesn't start by the windmilling prop, holding either start switch up in the start/crank position would work. 



To summarize, when starting, flip both mag switches on. Lift either one of them to the momentary 'start/crank' position and release when it's started.   Mag check by flipping one off, return it to on, then repeat with the other mag. Flipping both switches down to the 'off' position will kill the engine.



To me, this sounds fairly simple. But I am a bit subjective, since it is my idea. And, I'm not a pilot, have never started an airplane engine. This is why I'm posting. Gives me some perspective on things by people who are much more intimate with airplanes.



Regarding your list of combinations, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Yes, there are several possible switch combinations. There are also several combinations of a 3 switch start system that are seldom or never used:



1. left mag on, right mag off, start button not engaged

2. left mag on, right mag off, start button engaged

3. left mag off, right mag off, start button engaged

etc.



My point is there are several useless switch positions in either a two- or three-switch starting system. If I feel overburdened by either one of these systems, I could get a single switch that will eventually start if I keep turning it clockwise, and will eventually kill the engine if I turn it counterclockwise.  Man, so now I'll have to get an old fashioned watch with a dial  And then I'll have to make sure its hands only move clockwise.

_________________
Dan

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1921
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:26 am Post subject: Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

Ok Dan, You convinced  me that your start circuit is simple enough to operate, even for someone with CRS.  The cost of switches is probably about the same whether one uses 2 expensive DP3T switches or 3 inexpensive SPST switches.  Using 2 switches saves panel space if that is an issue.  I do not know if there are any regulations requiring switch functions to be labeled.  Good job figuring out the wiring of switches to accomplish your goal.

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

klehman(at)albedo.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:42 am Post subject: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

Starting will work well.



But if one likes to do checks by feel (such as at night or when looking 

for traffic) it complicates things as confirming a switch is up might 

activate the starter.



In daytime, the position of some switches is not obvious by looking 

which is further complicated by the human tendancy to see what they 

expect to see. A separate starter switch has some advantages.



Ken



user9253 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Ok Dan, You convinced  me that your start circuit is simple enough to operate, even for someone with CRS.  The cost of switches is probably about the same whether one uses 2 expensive DP3T switches or 3 inexpensive SPST switches.  Using 2 switches saves panel space if that is an issue.  I do not know if there are any regulations requiring switch functions to be labeled.  Good job figuring out the wiring of switches to accomplish your goal.

 Joe

 

 --------

 Joe Gores

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1921
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

Ken,

I agree that a separate starter switch (perhaps in series with mag switches) is safer.  Whether on the ground or in the air, inadvertent operation of the starter is not desired.  But it could be done by a new owner or a mechanic or even a kid.

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

messydeer

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Bellingham, WA

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

Thanks for the help, guys 



I've uploaded an updated version of the schematic, hopefully with all the changes made. Most or all of them can be seen in a blue font.



It won't be for several weeks before I'll need to finalize the starting wiring, so I'll have the chance to get more feedback about the 2- versus 3-switch starting circuit. As drawn, I still have the 2-switch version.



I may decide to stay with the Powerlet sockets for the cabin aux power, but since they wouldn't be used for more than a few amps, I could get a more standard cigarette socket. This one 



http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=AS212-ND



has a locking mechanism. Looks like you'd just twist it when you slide the plug in. They also sell the locking plug. Digikey told me the socket accepts any cigarette plug, but it's not clear to me if they all would lock.



For the batter charger connection that I'd mount FWF and access through a cowl opening, I found a few kinds that seem like they'd work.



The first one below is has an SAE on one end and Anderson powerpole on the other. Never heard of Anderson before, but sounds like they are popular in the RC arena:

http://www.powerwerx.com/adapter-extension-cables/bullet-connector-to-powerpole.html  



Another one used by RC are Deans Ultra Plugs: http://www.wsdeans.com/products/plugs/ultra_plug.html



I would think any of these connectors would have no problem carrying 10-15 amps from a charger.

Dan's Z16M mod 2 for Jabiru 3300 Sonex.pdf

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Dan

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1921
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic

Dan,

Just a suggestion, put the cabin lights and instrument lights on separate fuses so everything does not go dark at once.

Here is the installation manual for the MGL RDAC VD if you do not have it:

http://www.mglavionics.com/RDAC_VD_installation.pdf

Quoting from the manual concerning the tach signal input:

 	  Quote: 	
		  After you have connected the rev counter terminal to the signal source you

need to set the number of pulses per 10 revolutions in the Calibration Menu.

The calibration itself depends on your engine type and what kind of signal you

are using. Typical sources are:

Magneto coils (suitable signal at the kill switch).

Primary (low voltage) side of ignition coil, at contact breaker or electronic

ignition module.

RPM counter output of electronic ignition systems (for example Bosh

Motronic).

RPM pickup devices such as hall-effect sensors on flywheels etc.

Typical calibration settings are 10 or 20 for most engines. Other pulse counts

per 10 revolutions are also possible for some engines.

Please note: On some of the Stratomaster instruments pulse counts are

entered as pulses per ten revolutions, on others it is pulses per single

revolution with a decimal point (i.e. 1.0).

The rev counter input on the RDAC can be used with signals from about 5Vpp

to as much as 100Vpp. A noise filter is included that results in the input

ignoring any noise signals as long as this is below the detection threshold of

about 2.5Vpp. The input impedance of the rev counter input is approximately

REV counter wire from ignition system

10Kohm. You can use series resistors as well as load resistors for

applications that have unusual signals. 	
Although the manual lists the magneto kill switch as a possible tach signal source, any fault in the signal wire would short out the magneto.  Who knows what affect the 10K ohm impedance of the RDAC VD would have on the ignition system?  Since the dynamo is integrated with the flywheel and generates AC voltage, it should provide the RPM signal.  It is worth a try.

Bob said:  	  Quote: 	
		  You show a tach signal off the AC widings of the altenrator.

This will not be useful with the alternator disconnect relay

open. 	
Bob, I do not understand this, since the tach signal wire is connected to the alternator side of the disconnect relay.  Doesn't the alternator continue to generator voltage whether there is a load on it or not?  Or does the regulator open the grounded alternator lead?

Joe

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Joe Gores

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