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Jimmy Young

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 182
Location: Missouri City, TX

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:20 am Post subject: Wing U-joint

Dear Kolb gang,

I've got a question about my rear wing U-joint connection. If the U-joint has some play in it, is the correct fix to simply tighten the castle nut that's inside the joint enough to take out the play? I've got one that is nice & firm with no play, and the other has maybe 3/16" of slop in it. I believe it's been that way since I've owned the plane, but just noticed it this week when I grabbed the leading edge near the root rib and shook the wing a bit. There is a bit of space between the back of the U-joint and the square tube it is mounted to which is causing the play, so I'm assuming tightening that nut down some solves the problem, just want some confirmation please.



By the way, the HKS is running great, got about 22 hrs on it now, plenty of power.



Thanks,



Jimmy Y

FS II, 355 hrs AF, 22 hrs on HKS

_________________
Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:28 am Post subject: Re: Wing U-joint

JP is a Moron

Last edited by planecrazzzy on Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Wing U-joint

Jimmy,



The joint should not have any play in it, but it should not be tight either.  If the castle nut is tightened to much, it will put undue stress or even break something  when you twist the wing.  The assembly needs to rotate freely under the castle nut, with the minimum play possible.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:32 am Post subject: Wing U-joint

Hi Jimmy,

    My u joints were the same, I simply snugged  it them down until they had no slop, but would still move. Of course while you  are there, be sure to check every thing and make sure that it meets the safety  requirements.  My plane was built by someone else as well, and I think he  just didn't get it tightened as tight as he should have or there was a burr or  something on it. 

  

 It looks as though you are taking advantage of the new  engine to make up for lost time. Good for you!  I just turned 500 hours on  my 94 Firestar this morning.

 Larry C

 [quote]   ---

_________________
do not archive

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:33 am Post subject: Wing U-joint

At 09:20 AM 8/27/09 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I've got a question about my rear wing U-joint connection. If the U-joint 

has some play in it, is the correct fix to simply tighten the castle nut 
	


that's inside the joint enough to take out the play? I've got one that is 

nice & firm with no play, and the other has maybe 3/16" of slop in it. I 

believe it's been that way since I've owned the plane, but just noticed it 

this week when I grabbed the leading edge near the root rib and shook the 

wing a bit. There is a bit of space between the back of the U-joint and the 

square tube it is mounted to which is causing the play, so I'm assuming 

tightening that nut down some solves the problem, just want some 

confirmation please.

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


Jimmy,



I removed all play from the U-joints by drilling out the holes and bushing 

them to get good bearing surfaces for the pins/bolts.  To take the slop out 

of the hole for the cage swivel bolt, I shimmed the bolt to fit the hole and 

then used a couple of greased "O"rings as compression springs and a washer, 

so that I could tighten the nut and put the whole joint in compression.  

With this scheme one does not have to loosen the nut to fold the wings in 

order to get rid of all slop in the joint.  How it was done can be seen at:



http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly128.html



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:20 am Post subject: Wing U-joint

Jimmy



Yes tighten the nut down enough to take the slop out. The problem may be 

that the next hole in the castle nut may be too tight to allow the joint to 

rotate for folding. Find some thin washers. Use the thin washer/s between 

the nut and U-joint to get the U-joint snug but loose enough to rotate.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:17 am Post subject: Wing U-joint

Hi Jim,



My Firestar has very loose hinge joints, If i tighten the nut up more  

one more cotter key hole it makes the assy too tight and I can't fold  

the wings without tearing something up. I've thought about  making

some brass shims.as I fold every time I fly. All that slack can't be  

good for the bolt or fitting. Glad you brought it to mind I'll have to  

move fixing it to the top of my To Do List . If I didn't have to fold  

I would just tighten

the nut, shimming as necessary.

Glad to hear your HKS is doing good. Mine has over 80 almost trouble  

free hrs.



Frank Goodnight

Firestar2

HKS

Brownsville, TX

On Aug 27, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Jimmy Young wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Dear Kolb gang,

 I've got a question about my rear wing U-joint connection. If the U- 

 joint has some play in it, is the correct fix to simply tighten the  

 castle nut that's inside the joint enough to take out the play? I've  

 got one that is nice & firm with no play, and the other has maybe  

 3/16" of slop in it. I believe it's been that way since I've owned  

 the plane, but just noticed it this week when I grabbed the leading  

 edge near the root rib and shook the wing a bit. There is a bit of  

 space between the back of the U-joint and the square tube it is  

 mounted to which is causing the play, so I'm assuming tightening  

 that nut down some solves the problem, just want some confirmation  

 please.



 By the way, the HKS is running great, got about 22 hrs on it now,  

 plenty of power.



 Thanks,



 Jimmy Y

 FS II, 355 hrs AF, 22 hrs on HKS



 --------

 Jimmy Young

 FS II, HKS 700

 N7043P





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 59960#259960

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:23 am Post subject: Wing U-joint

> Yes tighten the nut down enough to take the slop out. The problem may be

 	  Quote: 	
		   that the next hole in the castle nut may be too tight to allow the joint 

 to rotate for folding. Find some thin washers. Use the thin washer/s 

 between the nut and U-joint to get the U-joint snug but loose enough to 

 rotate.



 Rick Neilsen


	




Jimmy Y/Gang:



You can get AN washers the normal thickness, 1/16" and thin ones, 1/32". 

That will help get the slop out.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:24 pm Post subject: Wing U-joint

Frank



   Pull the nut and grind its back side in a trial and error manner 

til you get the desired result...Herb

At 02:16 PM 8/27/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi Jim,



My Firestar has very loose hinge joints, If i tighten the nut up more

one more cotter key hole it makes the assy too tight and I can't fold

the wings without tearing something up. I've thought about  making

some brass shims.as I fold every time I fly. All that slack can't be

good for the bolt or fitting. Glad you brought it to mind I'll have to

move fixing it to the top of my To Do List . If I didn't have to fold

I would just tighten

the nut, shimming as necessary.

Glad to hear your HKS is doing good. Mine has over 80 almost trouble

free hrs.



Frank Goodnight

Firestar2

HKS

Brownsville, TX

On Aug 27, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Jimmy Young wrote:



>

>

>Dear Kolb gang,

>I've got a question about my rear wing U-joint connection. If the 

>U- joint has some play in it, is the correct fix to simply tighten the

>castle nut that's inside the joint enough to take out the play? I've

>got one that is nice & firm with no play, and the other has maybe

>3/16" of slop in it. I believe it's been that way since I've owned

>the plane, but just noticed it this week when I grabbed the leading

>edge near the root rib and shook the wing a bit. There is a bit of

>space between the back of the U-joint and the square tube it is

>mounted to which is causing the play, so I'm assuming tightening

>that nut down some solves the problem, just want some confirmation

>please.

>

>By the way, the HKS is running great, got about 22 hrs on it now,

>plenty of power.

>

>Thanks,

>

>Jimmy Y

>FS II, 355 hrs AF, 22 hrs on HKS

>

>--------

>Jimmy Young

>FS II, HKS 700

>N7043P

>

>

>Read this topic online here:

>

>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 59960#259960

>

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

08/27/09 08:11:00

frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:36 pm Post subject: Wing U-joint

Hi Herb,



I think thats a better idea than making shims , easier anyway . Thanks  

for your input.



Frank Goodnight

On Aug 27, 2009, at 3:24 PM, Herb wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Frank



  Pull the nut and grind its back side in a trial and error manner  

 til you get the desired result...Herb

 At 02:16 PM 8/27/2009, you wrote:

> 

> >

>

> Hi Jim,

>

> My Firestar has very loose hinge joints, If i tighten the nut up more

> one more cotter key hole it makes the assy too tight and I can't fold

> the wings without tearing something up. I've thought about  making

> some brass shims.as I fold every time I fly. All that slack can't be

> good for the bolt or fitting. Glad you brought it to mind I'll have  

> to

> move fixing it to the top of my To Do List . If I didn't have to fold

> I would just tighten

> the nut, shimming as necessary.

> Glad to hear your HKS is doing good. Mine has over 80 almost trouble

> free hrs.

>

> Frank Goodnight

> Firestar2

> HKS

> Brownsville, TX

> On Aug 27, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Jimmy Young wrote:

>

>> 

>>

>> Dear Kolb gang,

>>

>>

>> I've got a question about my rear wing U-joint connection. If the  

>> U- joint has some play in it, is the correct fix to simply tighten  

>> the

>> castle nut that's inside the joint enough to take out the play? I've

>> got one that is nice & firm with no play, and the other has maybe

>> 3/16" of slop in it. I believe it's been that way since I've owned

>> the plane, but just noticed it this week when I grabbed the leading

>> edge near the root rib and shook the wing a bit. There is a bit of

>> space between the back of the U-joint and the square tube it is

>> mounted to which is causing the play, so I'm assuming tightening

>> that nut down some solves the problem, just want some confirmation

>> please.

>>

>> By the way, the HKS is running great, got about 22 hrs on it now,

>> plenty of power.

>>

>> Thanks,

>>

>> Jimmy Y

>> FS II, 355 hrs AF, 22 hrs on HKS

>>

>> --------

>> Jimmy Young

>> FS II, HKS 700

>> N7043P

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Read this topic online here:

>>

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 59960#259960

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> 08/27/09 08:11:00

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:03 pm Post subject: Wing U-joint

>   Pull the nut and grind its back side in a trial and error manner

 	  Quote: 	
		   til you get the desired result...Herb


	




Might work for Herb, but not for me.



Like I mentioned earlier today, there are thick, 1/16" washers and thin, 

1/32" washers, AN type available to do the job.



I'll use washers the get the correct fit, before grinding off the protective 

cad plating on the nut.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:14 pm Post subject: Wing U-joint

Guys, Just a suggestion but before "fixing" anything I like to know why it broke. I agree with John, grinding is a bad idea. You remove the plating and your likelihood of getting the surface normal to the threads is slim at best. 



Rick Girard

do not archive



On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 3:56 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

  

 



 >   Pull the nut and grind its back side in a trial and error manner

  	  Quote: 	
		   til you get the desired result...Herb

 	
 

 



 Might work for Herb, but not for me.

 

 Like I mentioned earlier today, there are thick, 1/16" washers and thin, 1/32" washers, AN type available to do the job.

 

 I'll use washers the get the correct fit, before grinding off the protective cad plating on the nut.

 

 john h

 mkIII



 

 

 

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 



[b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:49 pm Post subject: Wing U-joint

That is the best remedy.  I have an aluminum spacer in one of my  

joints to adjust sweep in that wing to match the other.

I smear never-seize on the whole mess and have zero wear so far.

BB



On 27, Aug 2009, at 4:24 PM, Herb wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Frank



   Pull the nut and grind its back side in a trial and error manner  

 til you get the desired result...Herb

 At 02:16 PM 8/27/2009, you wrote:

> 

> <frank.goodnight(at)att.net>

>

> Hi Jim,

>

> My Firestar has very loose hinge joints, If i tighten the nut up more

> one more cotter key hole it makes the assy too tight and I can't fold

> the wings without tearing something up. I've thought about  making

> some brass shims.as I fold every time I fly. All that slack can't be

> good for the bolt or fitting. Glad you brought it to mind I'll  

> have to

> move fixing it to the top of my To Do List . If I didn't have to fold

> I would just tighten

> the nut, shimming as necessary.

> Glad to hear your HKS is doing good. Mine has over 80 almost trouble

> free hrs.

>

> Frank Goodnight

> Firestar2

> HKS

> Brownsville, TX

> On Aug 27, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Jimmy Young wrote:

>

>> 

>>

>> Dear Kolb gang,

>>

>>

>> I've got a question about my rear wing U-joint connection. If the  

>> U- joint has some play in it, is the correct fix to simply  

>> tighten the

>> castle nut that's inside the joint enough to take out the play? I've

>> got one that is nice & firm with no play, and the other has maybe

>> 3/16" of slop in it. I believe it's been that way since I've owned

>> the plane, but just noticed it this week when I grabbed the leading

>> edge near the root rib and shook the wing a bit. There is a bit of

>> space between the back of the U-joint and the square tube it is

>> mounted to which is causing the play, so I'm assuming tightening

>> that nut down some solves the problem, just want some confirmation

>> please.

>>

>> By the way, the HKS is running great, got about 22 hrs on it now,

>> plenty of power.

>>

>> Thanks,

>>

>> Jimmy Y

>> FS II, 355 hrs AF, 22 hrs on HKS

>>

>> --------

>> Jimmy Young

>> FS II, HKS 700

>> N7043P

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Read this topic online here:

>>

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 59960#259960

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> 08/27/09 08:11:00

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:50 pm Post subject: Wing U-joint

At 09:20 AM 8/27/09 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I've got a question about my rear wing U-joint connection. If the U-joint 

has some play in it, is the correct fix to simply tighten the castle nut 
	


that's inside the joint enough to take out the play? I've got one that is 

nice & firm with no play, and the other has maybe 3/16" of slop in it. I 

believe it's been that way since I've owned the plane, but just noticed it 

this week when I grabbed the leading edge near the root rib and shook the 

wing a bit. There is a bit of space between the back of the U-joint and the 

square tube it is mounted to which is causing the play, so I'm assuming 

tightening that nut down some solves the problem, just want some 

confirmation please.

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


Jimmy,



I removed all play from the U-joints by drilling out the holes and bushing 

them to get good bearing surfaces for the pins/bolts.  To take the slop out 

of the hole for the cage swivel bolt, I shimmed the bolt to fit the hole and 

then used a couple of greased "O"rings as compression springs and a washer, 

so that I could tighten the nut and put the whole joint in compression.  

With this scheme one does not have to loosen the nut to fold the wings in 

order to get rid of all slop in the joint.  How it was done can be seen at:



http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly128.html



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Wing U-joint

JP is a Moron

Last edited by planecrazzzy on Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:22 am; edited 1 time in total

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:11 pm Post subject: Wing U-joint

I was mindful , when I suggested that the bolt could  ground , that 

the washer could also be ground...belt sander works well... that 

said...I also know that the cadmium plating on the drag spar attach 

bolt ,u joint assy, likely has been diminished by melting when the 

bolt was welded to the square tube cross member...  Likely some lube 

is in order... 

   Welding a cadmium plated anything is hazardous...It melts at about 

600 deg. F..  just about as bad as Berillum if inhaled... Herb

At 03:56 PM 8/27/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 >   Pull the nut and grind its back side in a trial and error manner

>til you get the desired result...Herb

Might work for Herb, but not for me.

Like I mentioned earlier today, there are thick, 1/16" washers and 

thin, 1/32" washers, AN type available to do the job.

I'll use washers the get the correct fit, before grinding off the 

protective cad plating on the nut.

john h

mkIII

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

08/27/09 08:11:00

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:48 pm Post subject: Wing U-joint

In a message dated 8/27/2009 12:22:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  jdy100(at)comcast.net writes:

   	  Quote: 	
		     I've got a question about my rear wing U-joint connection. If the    U-joint has some play in it, is the correct fix to simply tighten the castle    nut that's inside the joint enough to take out the play? I've got one that is    nice & firm with no play, and the other has maybe 3/16" of slop in it. I    believe it's been that way since I've owned the plane, but just noticed it    this week when I grabbed the leading edge near the root rib and shook the wing    a bit. There is a bit of space between the back of the U-joint and the square    tube it is mounted to which is causing the play, so I'm assuming tightening    that nut down some solves the problem, just want some confirmation    please.

   Jimmy,

    

   Here is my experience with the U-joints:

    

   On my plans & instructions, it called for the castle    nut to be tightened up just enough to allow the fitting to rotate    when folding the wings, then install a cotter pin.  But as others have    mentioned, the cotter hole does not always line up, so I had to back    off on the nut some, which allowed some slight slop, although not    enough to cause any harm.  A buddy of mine had an idea to use a self    locking nut, instead of the castle nut and cotter pin, and we both installed    those type nuts on our FireStars.  We fold/unfold our wings every time we    fly and the self locking nut does not loosen.

    

   On one of my U-joints, the large hole which fits onto the bolt end    was supplied predrilled, slightly oversize, and that allowed a    slight amount of slop, but again it was not enough to be a problem.     The instructions also say to lube it annually.

    

   Someone mentioned grinding off the back side of the nut, or to    use different thickness washers to get a better fit so the cotter pin    will fit into the hole with the nut at the tightness desired.

    

   I have used both of these ideas to remove play from the    control fittings.  Sometimes I could not get the desired tightness even    when changing washers.  That's when I used the grinding of the nut    method.  However, rather than grinding and getting the nut    crooked, I place the nut on a flat file and slide it back and forth,    removing some metal, but keeping it flat.  It's true that it does    remove the cadium plating, but then I grease it well and so far no    rust.  It doesn't take much metal removal to make the holes line    up.  That's how I did it.

    

   Bill    Varnes

1994 Original Kolb FireStar

   500+    hours

Audubon NJ

	


 

  [quote][b]

Jimmy Young

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 182
Location: Missouri City, TX

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:54 am Post subject: Re: Wing U-joint

After pulling my wing, I found my U-joint castle nut was simply not tight enough. I locked it down, firm but still movable, put a new cotter pin in it, and all is good with both wings equally solid. Of course I had to go fly it.  The only thing hard was pulling and re-installing the wing by myself without tearing anything up, but I've learned how to use carpet and barrels as cheap labor. I'm certain the slop has been in there since I got the plane 2 years ago, as I've never messed with either U-joint before other than pulling wings. 



It was a great evening to fly, fairly light winds and only upper 80's due to some earlier T-storm activity. I took one pic, NW of Galveston and well-south of Houston.

Thanks for all the tips and advice -



Jimmy Y

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_________________
Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:50 am Post subject: Wing U-joint

At 11:32 PM 8/27/2009, WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.com wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  In a message dated 8/27/2009 12:22:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jdy100(at)comcast.net writes:    I have used both of these ideas to remove play from the control fittings.  Sometimes I could not get the desired tightness even when changing washers.  That's when I used the grinding of the nut method... 	
 

 I'd be more inclined to grind the washer rather than the nut, which could leave a sharp edge to rub on the bolt.  Or make a new washer out of shim stock.



 -Dana

 

 --

  We wonder why the dogs always drink out of our toilets, but look at it from their point of view: why do humans keep peeing into their water bowls?    [quote][b]

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:52 am Post subject: Wing U-joint

Jimmy, Don't you just love it when a fix is simple and straight forward. Glad it worked out so well.



Rick Girard

do not archive



On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 5:54 AM, Jimmy Young <jdy100(at)comcast.net (jdy100(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jimmy Young" <jdy100(at)comcast.net (jdy100(at)comcast.net)>

  

 After pulling my wing, I found my U-joint castle nut was simply not tight enough. I locked it down, firm but still movable, put a new cotter pin in it, and all is good with both wings equally solid. Of course I had to go fly it.  The only thing hard was pulling and re-installing the wing by myself without tearing anything up, but I've learned how to use carpet and barrels as cheap labor. I'm certain the slop has been in there since I got the plane 2 years ago, as I've never messed with either U-joint before other than pulling wings.

  

 It was a great evening to fly, fairly light winds and only upper 80's due to some earlier T-storm activity. I took one pic, NW of Galveston and well-south of Houston.

 

 

 Thanks for all the tips and advice -

 

 Jimmy Y

 

 --------

 Jimmy Young

 FS II, HKS 700

 N7043P

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260164#260164

 

 

 

 

 Attachments:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn0484_136.jpg

 

 

 

 

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 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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