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Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

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Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:29 pm Post subject: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

At 06:07 AM 3/17/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I think it is possible that I set myself up for some of that darting 

with a tailwheel that would over-control and redirect me instantly 

when I finally set the tailwheel down (more dual proved I was not as 

religious about planting that tailwheel as I should have been).


	


I doubt it. I've been running bone tight springs from the start with 

no problem, and I'm certainly no tailwheel phenomenon. I'd like to 

see some pictures of your tailwheel setup.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting

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Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:32 pm Post subject: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

I agree.  My tailwheel has always been tight and I have had not problems.

The problem was probably toe-in on your main gear.



Randy



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Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

Jeffrey Dill

Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Pleasant view, TN

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:24 am Post subject: Re: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

Sorry, am replying to messages from last spring which escaped my attention. Guy asked for a picture of my tailwheel setup and I have tried to attach one taken yesterday. I attached a tie-wrap from chain to spring on the right side to show the amount of stretch that is required to hook it up. The J-3 I flew for my 709 (ride with the FAA) had a significant amount of slack from rudder horn to tailwheel, I think I sent a picture of that last winter. The stark difference is what prompted me to take a closer look. I bought some chain to loosen, but adding a link to each side produces such slack as to risk, or practically assure,  spring detachment. I placed an order for compression springs from Spruce, which will hopefully eliminate that possibility. Now, having belatedly read your notes, I might go back to the tension I had and consider the sizable domain of reasons for the sudden darting I was experiencing.

*I have read to keep tire pressure at 9 PSI, I was running about 15 due to problems keeping the bead sealed. Why so soft?

*The training subsequent to my wreck revealed a significant negative transfer from 30 years of nosewheel flying. I was moving the stick forward immediately after touchdown, and believe me, it was unconscious, but never never never did it cause me to dart or change direction at all in the J-3, Supercruiser,  or converted 172. Those all went where I asked them to.

* I was holding the airplane off the ground until such slow speed as to be unable to meter the descent for soft touchdown. On the occasions where I got close to the proverbial "landing in a stall", I touched tailwheel first and forced the mains into dropping from their location, still maybe a foot from the ground. Add a little bit of bank to that situation and you can see how I might get thrown to the opposite bank in the ensuing bounce, now with less than stall airpseed. Having scarcely any control authority, I would have to ride it out at the mercy of what seemed random physics. I did this in the J-3 as well, until I realized that touching down at stall is B.S... go for the soft touch while you can, and then plant the tailwheel ASAP, in that order.

* Since I had obtained the airplane used and never actually measured the main gear tow, I don't know if that was a factor. Now both main gear are new from a model 4. I lined them up as carefully as I could. I was seeking a degree of tow out, but wound up with less than that because of tooling limitations.

*I was taught to stay off of the brakes. I think that, with a little practice on a day that things were going well, I could have learned to use them in a pinch without making things worse. As it was, the only trick in my bag was the go-around, and when you are heading for the grass, that runway is short even for a Kitfox.

I have not flown my model 2 since I wrecked it, but it is close to ready and I would like to before winter. Naturally I am apprehensive about it. Every pilot I flew with in remedial training told me to get rid of the Kitfox; most said to get a certified airplane. So, I bought a second Kitfox and will build the Classic 4 in due time. I figure that if you guys can do it, so can I. I have flown my share of challenging aircraft and, like the rest, it is just a matter of understanding the unique concerns and strategies to deal with them. I will say reservedly that I have found no eagerness among tailwheel CFIs to actually get into my airplane to help me figure this out. So, it will be baby steps with wide runways or grass strips and light winds.

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Jeff Dill
Model 2

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

On a tail wheel, you have to be ready on the brakes.  If she starts to get away from you, at that critical transition from having enough air over the rudder to make it effective, and the tail wheel still inches off the ground, (or in your case light due to the down elevator) your only option is to get on the brakes!  I was running tight chains on mine with compression springs, but with the chains tight, I could not get the tail wheel to unlock and swivel for tight turns into parking.  I had to loosen them up and it made it a little more forgiving on the landings.



Landings, I always practice and perform full stall tail wheel first on the numbers (or before depending on the runway I am on).  I fly into and out of some very short strips and what we will do in a pinch, is what we practice as the norm.  Some one way strips I go into leave NO room for error.  you miss judge one foot of altitude and your eating trees at the end or river bank at the beginning.  On landing, the elevator controls airspeed, the power controls decent rate PERIOD.  If you want to drag it in slow, keep the power on and ride both elevator and power to keep speed and altitude under control.   If you are falling out of the sky and bouncing hard, it is because you are flaring to high and hold it off at to high an altitude. 



The J3, PA 12 etc. that you flew were easier on you because of the longer moment on the tail.  There is no real foot work required to keep a 12 or J3 or 18 heading down the runway unless you have a nasty crosswind, but believe me, if any of the above start swinging on you, the ONLY way you will get them back is with good brakes.  Been there, done that and have the Tee shirt (and scuffed wing tips).  



Without using brakes, how do you land short?  I can consistently drag mine in and be stopped and turned around in under 75'.  The second the mains are on the ground I am STANDING on the mushy stock Matco brakes.  I am going to do the pedal mods for better braking when I take mine off floats and go back to wheels so I can lock them up at touch down if need be.



Just my .02... and that wont get you a starbucks even if you kick in another $3.00

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Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

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Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

The left wheel on my Classic 4 was seriously toed in.  I could see it without the straight edges/clalk lines on the floor.  I attempted the six foot cheater on the axle method to straighten but stopped because I figured that was going to break something.  I ground looped good enough to collapse that left gear early on in my tail wheel experience.



I purchased a brand new left gear and figured it would fix the toe in problem.  Wrong, it was toed in just like the first one.  I took the axle out and bent it with a sledge hammer and a vise.  The axles are soft and bend pretty easy.  My wheel alignment is straight ahead now and is much easier to handle now.



On the stock steering springs on the tail wheel.  The builders manual says to pinch the ends with pliers so the chains can't come off.  I didn't do that at first because the chains were snug.  A friend saw that before the first flight and told me to pinch them closed or I would eventually have one come off.  He wasn't a kitfox guy either.



Here's a link to a diagram and short video about tail wheel set up.  Its not a kitfox wheel but the information is good I think.



http://www.akbushwheel.com/TailwheelTechnicalInfo.html



I only had 300 hours of nose wheel only time when I started the tail wheel transition.  I had the same problems as you Jeffrey.  Practice practice practice the techniques an old instructor with an old airplane told me to use and after 75 hours now I can do the full stall landing without bouncing and the plane tracks straight ahead...most of the time.

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Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Jeffrey Dill

Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Pleasant view, TN

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:44 am Post subject: Re: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

Leonard, 

I gave your reply the weekend to digest. I was heartened by the first sentence which implied that touching down with my tailwheel "inches off the ground" was OK to a pro such as yourself. I want that to be ok, because in that regime, that AOA, I am confident that I can control the descent rate for a soft touch.  Then later you take that away by saying you always practice tailwheel first landings. I get it that you might be able to control descent rate with power, although the 3 point attitude strikes me as too slow to do all the way down final, or with the least bit of gust. I have gotten leery about what another pilot calls a full stall anyway, usually a moot point, except in this discussion. just because pulling more on the stick does not result in more lift does not indicate a full stall in my mind.  I think I have flown this airplane at a pitch much higher than 3 point (at altitude with lots of power), the buffet is heavy and the drag high. At those pitches, if you think of a typical lift curve, the lift actually decreases with additional AOA, but, there is still some lift available beyond max lift before the thing lets go. In that situation, you cannot control descent rate with pitch, only power, because more AOA produces less lift (and lots more drag).  I guess now I have to attach a lift curve. Anyway, you get to a point where parsing this out with words creates diminishing returns, and you just have to get into the airplane and learn from experience what works and what does not. I doubt if most pilots have thought about this as much as I have, or in the same way. Words cannot do justice to all the considerations. The object of the game is to take baby steps within your own boundaries and expand the boundaries over time, which is what I thought I was attempting to do the day I wrecked it. But I would have admitted to you then that I did not have faith in the random physics that I felt I had to ride out, with ineffective flight controls, as my mains bounced like basketballs. Either with power, or a lower AOA, you must go for the soft touch.

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Jeff Dill
Model 2

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:13 am Post subject: Re: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

The tail wheel hits first, because the main gear is not tall enough.  To really drag it in slow the nose has to get way up there.  The only way you can get that AOA on the wing and the most short field out of the plane is to drag it in and touch the tail wheel first.  I have drug mine in and had the tail wheel on the ground when the mains were still a foot or so off the ground.  It all depends on what you are comfortable doing.



While charts and graphs are cool, and will simulate theoretical numbers, I live in the real world.  The operating book and brochures for my plane dont come close in terms of climb etc.  



At the end of the day, no amount of charts, or graphs will teach you how to fly your plane.  The first thing I do and tell people is to get lots of altitude, then slow the plane down and see how slow you can fly it and be comfortable driving it around the sky nose high and with lots of power.  This will give you an idea of how I am landing when I really need to get in short.

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