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tracy(at)rotaryaviation.c
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 Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject: At long last, First Flight. |
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Today there was nothing left to do on the Mazda 20B powered RV-8 but flight test it.
For those of you not familiar with the rotary engine, The 20B is a 3 rotor version of the 13B which powered the Mazda RX-7. The 20B makes about 300 HP in normally aspirated form. (it was turbocharged in the Japanese car it came from (never sold in the US). I've been flying an RV-4 with the Mazda 13B two rotor engine for 15 years, 1850 hrs. TT.
Very hot day (93 F and high humidity) but ground tests of the cooling system had gone so well that I was confident of cooling in flight. Installed the radio and transponder in the panel (which for some reason I had neglected to do until this morning) and they both worked with no problems, which is always a surprise.
High speed taxi tests had already been completed and the P-factor was no worse than the RV-4, in fact I think it has less. This may be premature because I haven't done a full throttle takeoff yet. The RV-8 has 1.25 degrees right offset which I think helps a lot. The RV-4 has no offset. First flight was done without wheel pants or main gear intersection fairings.
Just to make sure there were no surprises, takeoff was done at the same fuel flow as the RV-4 at WOT. I didn't note the manifold pressure but the throttle quadrant was barely over 1/2 throttle. Ground run on the -8 feels more stable than the -4 with considerably more rudder authority (it's physically bigger so no surprise). The plane broke ground at about the same point as the -4 but it feels like it levitates off rather than rotates off. Probably due to the higher wing incidence on the ground than the -4 with the short gear legs but also due to the longer wing. I had extended both wings by about 18" so the wing loading and span loading are less than on the -4. It has about 13% more wing area than stock. This was actually the second time the -8 had air under the tires since it had floated off ground about a foot once before during a high speed taxi test.
Airspeed was increasing rapidly after lift off but the ASI was not matching the visual ques. Normally I expect to see 120 mph at the end of the runway (2700 ft) but ASI shows only 80. Too late to abort but the airplane is climbing & sounding very nice. I had been doing a lot of seat-of-the pants takeoff and simulated dead stick landings (in the -4) in anticipation of today's tests so I would feel comfortable in the event of partial or complete panel failure (Blue Mountain EFIS1 with only a standard ASI for backup). Climb to 1000 feet felt effortless even after throttling back to 8 GPH. I notice that I'm hunting for information and not absorbing much due to the very different instrument panel. Remembering that the EFIS1 has the primary ASI in a speed ribbon format, I hunt for it and see 0 MPH when I finally find it. The EM2 (an RWS engine monitor with backup ASI, VSI & Altitude) shows the same airspeed as the Van's steam gauge, now about 100 MPH. First squawk of the flight and this means I will do the first landing sans airspeed indicator. I can't seem to locate the GPS ground speed on the display either. Glad I did all that practice
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Larry Bowen
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 802
Location: NC, USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject: At long last, First Flight. |
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Congrats Tracy!
--
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 9:44 PM, Tracy Crook <tracy(at)rotaryaviation.com (tracy(at)rotaryaviation.com)> wrote:
[quote] Today there was nothing left to do on the Mazda 20B powered RV-8 but flight test it.
For those of you not familiar with the rotary engine, The 20B is a 3 rotor version of the 13B which powered the Mazda RX-7. The 20B makes about 300 HP in normally aspirated form. (it was turbocharged in the Japanese car it came from (never sold in the US). I've been flying an RV-4 with the Mazda 13B two rotor engine for 15 years, 1850 hrs. TT.
Very hot day (93 F and high humidity) but ground tests of the cooling system had gone so well that I was confident of cooling in flight. Installed the radio and transponder in the panel (which for some reason I had neglected to do until this morning) and they both worked with no problems, which is always a surprise.
High speed taxi tests had already been completed and the P-factor was no worse than the RV-4, in fact I think it has less. This may be premature because I haven't done a full throttle takeoff yet. The RV-8 has 1.25 degrees right offset which I think helps a lot. The RV-4 has no offset. First flight was done without wheel pants or main gear intersection fairings.
Just to make sure there were no surprises, takeoff was done at the same fuel flow as the RV-4 at WOT. I didn't note the manifold pressure but the throttle quadrant was barely over 1/2 throttle. Ground run on the -8 feels more stable than the -4 with considerably more rudder authority (it's physically bigger so no surprise). The plane broke ground at about the same point as the -4 but it feels like it levitates off rather than rotates off. Probably due to the higher wing incidence on the ground than the -4 with the short gear legs but also due to the longer wing. I had extended both wings by about 18" so the wing loading and span loading are less than on the -4. It has about 13% more wing area than stock. This was actually the second time the -8 had air under the tires since it had floated off ground about a foot once before during a high speed taxi test.
Airspeed was increasing rapidly after lift off but the ASI was not matching the visual ques. Normally I expect to see 120 mph at the end of the runway (2700 ft) but ASI shows only 80. Too late to abort but the airplane is climbing & sounding very nice. I had been doing a lot of seat-of-the pants takeoff and simulated dead stick landings (in the -4) in anticipation of today's tests so I would feel comfortable in the event of partial or complete panel failure (Blue Mountain EFIS1 with only a standard ASI for backup). Climb to 1000 feet felt effortless even after throttling back to 8 GPH. I notice that I'm hunting for information and not absorbing much due to the very different instrument panel. Remembering that the EFIS1 has the primary ASI in a speed ribbon format, I hunt for it and see 0 MPH when I finally find it. The EM2 (an RWS engine monitor with backup ASI, VSI & Altitude) shows the same airspeed as the Van's steam gauge, now about 100 MPH. First squawk of the flight and this means I will do the first landing sans airspeed indicator. I can't seem to locate the GPS ground speed on the display either. Glad I did all that practice
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Larry Bowen
RV-8 SOLD,
RV-7QB in progress... |
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khorton01(at)rogers.com
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:05 am Post subject: At long last, First Flight. |
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On 6-Sep-09, at 21:44 , Tracy Crook wrote:
| Quote: | Today there was nothing left to do on the Mazda 20B powered RV-8
but flight test it.
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A very hearty congratulations Tracy!! I've always had a soft spot for
the Mazda rotaries, and I really appreciate the pragmatic approach you
take to your development. Good luck.
Fly safe,
--
Kevin Horton
RV-8
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
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Charles Heathco
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 201
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:41 am Post subject: At long last, First Flight. |
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Congrats on first flight. Im curious about taking off with 1/2 thotle? Is this something common to the rotary? Re "hight temps" 200 deg on oil is not a problem with Lyc's, and seems car engine temps on coolant run that high or even higher? Charlie H
[quote] ---
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Ollie Washburn
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:20 am Post subject: At long last, First Flight. |
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Congratulations Tracy, been a long wait. Hope to see the plane at Loves b-que first Sat in Nov.
Ollie
[quote][b]
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Ollie RV6-A & Rans S7S
Central FL |
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tracy(at)rotaryaviation.c
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:11 am Post subject: At long last, First Flight. |
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Thanks Charlie.
The 'half throttle takeoff' was mainly a reaction to what happened in a previous test flight in my RV-4. I had changed the gear reduction drive to a higher ratio and installed a much longer prop turning the opposite direction. The higher ratio allowed the rotary to get further into its power band so I had significantly more power at takeoff ( running fixed pitch prop). Between the increased and opposite direction P factor, I almost crashed into the fence next to the runway on takeoff (cleared it by inches). I learned to feed throttle in gradually rather than firewalling it immediately as I had done in the past. That was with a 200 HP engine so I was a little paranoid with 300 HP on tap.
On the -8 I also fed throttle gradually but stopped when the fuel flow reached the same rate as the smaller engine at WOT in the -4 . Assuming all other things being equal, a big engine will burn about the same amount of fuel as a small one when making the same power. That was the goal on this first takeoff. I'll explore the extra 100 HP later.
On rotary engines it is important to measure oil temperature after the oil cooler just before it enters the engine because the rotors are 100% cooled by oil flow. It is mainly an O-ring in the oil control rings that get damaged by high oil temps. Not catastrophic but high oil consumption results and requires a complete teardown to replace the O-rings. Rotors have combustion chambers on three faces and they don't get a whole revolution just to cool off like a piston does. But on the other hand they are made of iron instead of aluminum. The oil temps are typically 40 degrees higher in the pan prior to going through the cooler. I'm guessing Lyc's oil temp is measured in the pan. On a 'perfect' rotary cooling system, we'd like to see 180 F on both oil and coolant.
Tracy Crook
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 7:41 AM, charlie heathco <cheathco(at)cox.net (cheathco(at)cox.net)> wrote:
[quote] Congrats on first flight. Im curious about taking off with 1/2 thotle? Is this something common to the rotary? Re "hight temps" 200 deg on oil is not a problem with Lyc's, and seems car engine temps on coolant run that high or even higher? Charlie H
[quote] ---
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crowbotham(at)hotmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:10 am Post subject: At long last, First Flight. |
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Hi Tracy C
Great to hear you both in the Air !
CONGRATULATIONS and WELL DONE !!!
Chuck & Dave Rowbotham
RV-8A sold
Dave's building RV-9A
Date: Sun C 6 Sep 2009 21:44:58 -0400
Subject: At long last C First Flight.
From: tracy(at)rotaryaviation.com
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Today there was nothing left to do on the Mazda 20B powered RV-8 but flight test it.
For those of you not familiar with the rotary engine C The 20B is a 3 rotor version of the 13B which powered the Mazda RX-7. The 20B makes about 300 HP in normally aspirated form. (it was turbocharged in the Japanese car it came from (never sold in the US). I've been flying an RV-4 with the Mazda 13B two rotor engine for 15 years C 1850 hrs. TT.
Very hot day (93 F and high humidity) but ground tests of the cooling system had gone so well that I was confident of cooling in flight. Installed the radio and transponder in the panel (which for some reason I had neglected to do until this morning) and they both worked with no problems C which is always a surprise.
High speed taxi tests had already been completed and the P-factor was no worse than the RV-4 C in fact I think it has less. This may be premature because I haven't done a full throttle takeoff yet. The RV-8 has 1.25 degrees right offset which I think helps a lot. The RV-4 has no offset. First flight was done without wheel pants or main gear intersection fairings.
Just to make sure there were no surprises C takeoff was done at the same fuel flow as the RV-4 at WOT. I didn't note the manifold pressure but the throttle quadrant was barely over 1/2 throttle. Ground run on the -8 feels more stable than the -4 with considerably more rudder authority (it's physically bigger so no surprise). The plane broke ground at about the same point as the -4 but it feels like it levitates off rather than rotates off. Probably due to the higher wing incidence on the ground than the -4 with the short gear legs but also due to the longer wing. I had extended both wings by about 18" so the wing loading and span loading are less than on the -4. It has about 13% more wing area than stock. This was actually the second time the -8 had air under the tires since it had floated off ground about a foot once before during a high speed taxi test.
Airspeed was increasing rapidly after lift off but the ASI was not matching the visual ques. Normally I expect to see 120 mph at the end of the runway (2700 ft) but ASI shows only 80. Too late to abort but the airplane is climbing & sounding very nice. I had been doing a lot of seat-of-the pants takeoff and simulated dead stick landings (in the -4) in anticipation of today's tests so I would feel comfortable in the event of partial or complete panel failure (Blue Mountain EFIS1 with only a standard ASI for backup). Climb to 1000 feet felt effortless even after throttling back to 8 GPH. I notice that I'm hunting for information and not absorbing much due to the very different instrument panel. Remembering that the EFIS1 has the primary ASI in a speed ribbon format C I hunt for it and see 0 MPH when I finally find it. The EM2 (an RWS engine monitor with backup ASI C VSI & Altitude) shows the same airspeed as the Van's steam gauge C now about 100 MPH. First squawk of the flight and this means I will do the first landing sans airspeed indicator. I can't seem to locate the GPS ground speed on the display either. Glad I did all that practice.
Time to settle in and start evaluating engine performance. I had taken off with the engine fairly warm so I was not surprised to see oil & water temps nearing 190 F after climbout. I continue collecting data hoping the temps will start coming down but it is soon apparent that they are stabilizing at about 200 on both oil and coolant. Very disappointing C since they had been well below this on the ground when at the same fuel flow I was currently flying at (I had backed it down to 5.75 gph by this time).
The plane itself is flying beautifully. The aileron trim is able to trim out a very slight left wing heavy tendency and the ship feels like it is gliding through the air effortlessly. Again C no surprise C the plane feels just like an RV (Magnificent!). At this speed (guessing about 135 mph) the roll response is only slightly slower than the -4. The ailerons were extended with the wing so the RV feel has been preserved. I've completed a wide circuit of the pattern and in position to make an approach so I throttle back and I can immediately tell that the glide ratio is significantly higher than the -4. The longer wing is having more effect than I thought it would even with the heavier engine. This -8 with a 20B ended up weighing about 70 pounds more than the average one equipped with an 0 - 360 and fixed pitch prop and about the same as one equipped with an IO - 360 with constant speed prop. Empty weight (but with oil) is 1150 lbs. All the attention to weight control has paid off. I throttle up for a go around and the FBW throttle responds well C no detectable throttle lag at all.
The higher than expected oil and water temps are distracting me from data gathering (Rats C I haven't had time to replace the EM2 with a data logging EM3 yet) so I make a few more circuits of the field and setup for an approach. I crank in more flaps early to kill off the airspeed and excess glide ratio and intentionally do not look at the ASI to avoid being confused. Wheel landing touchdown is perfect and now I glance at the ASI and see 40 MPH. Obviously wrong.
All in all C a great first flight. The RV-8 is going to be exactly the airplane I was hoping for. Still a lot of testing and tweaking to do.
Tracy Crook
Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. Try Bing now. [quote][b]
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stein(at)steinair.com
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:54 am Post subject: At long last, First Flight. |
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Congrats Tracy and well done. Keep us posted as to the progress and enjoy the bird!
Cheers,
Stein
do not archive
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rv8tor(at)lazy8.net
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:43 pm Post subject: At long last, First Flight. |
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Tracy, very nice!
I am looking forward to more results as you chase the bugs out. There is a lot of potential in your project.
John Huft
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 7:45 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: At long last, First Flight.
Today there was nothing left to do on the Mazda 20B powered RV-8 but flight test it.
For those of you not familiar with the rotary engine, The 20B is a 3 rotor version of the 13B which powered the Mazda RX-7. The 20B makes about 300 HP in normally aspirated form. (it was turbocharged in the Japanese car it came from (never sold in the US). I've been flying an RV-4 with the Mazda 13B two rotor engine for 15 years, 1850 hrs. TT.
Very hot day (93 F and high humidity) but ground tests of the cooling system had gone so well that I was confident of cooling in flight. Installed the radio and transponder in the panel (which for some reason I had neglected to do until this morning) and they both worked with no problems, which is always a surprise.
High speed taxi tests had already been completed and the P-factor was no worse than the RV-4, in fact I think it has less. This may be premature because I haven't done a full throttle takeoff yet. The RV-8 has 1.25 degrees right offset which I think helps a lot. The RV-4 has no offset. First flight was done without wheel pants or main gear intersection fairings.
Just to make sure there were no surprises, takeoff was done at the same fuel flow as the RV-4 at WOT. I didn't note the manifold pressure but the throttle quadrant was barely over 1/2 throttle. Ground run on the -8 feels more stable than the -4 with considerably more rudder authority (it's physically bigger so no surprise). The plane broke ground at about the same point as the -4 but it feels like it levitates off rather than rotates off. Probably due to the higher wing incidence on the ground than the -4 with the short gear legs but also due to the longer wing. I had extended both wings by about 18" so the wing loading and span loading are less than on the -4. It has about 13% more wing area than stock. This was actually the second time the -8 had air under the tires since it had floated off ground about a foot once before during a high speed taxi test.
Airspeed was increasing rapidly after lift off but the ASI was not matching the visual ques. Normally I expect to see 120 mph at the end of the runway (2700 ft) but ASI shows only 80. Too late to abort but the airplane is climbing & sounding very nice. I had been doing a lot of seat-of-the pants takeoff and simulated dead stick landings (in the -4) in anticipation of today's tests so I would feel comfortable in the event of partial or complete panel failure (Blue Mountain EFIS1 with only a standard ASI for backup). Climb to 1000 feet felt effortless even after throttling back to 8 GPH. I notice that I'm hunting for information and not absorbing much due to the very different instrument panel. Remembering that the EFIS1 has the primary ASI in a speed ribbon format, I hunt for it and see 0 MPH when I finally find it. The EM2 (an RWS engine monitor with backup ASI, VSI & Altitude) shows the same airspeed as the Van's steam gauge, now about 100 MPH. First squawk of the flight and this means I will do the first landing sans airspeed indicator. I can't seem to locate the GPS ground speed on the display either. Glad I did all that practice.
Time to settle in and start evaluating engine performance. I had taken off with the engine fairly warm so I was not surprised to see oil & water temps nearing 190 F after climbout. I continue collecting data hoping the temps will start coming down but it is soon apparent that they are stabilizing at about 200 on both oil and coolant. Very disappointing, since they had been well below this on the ground when at the same fuel flow I was currently flying at (I had backed it down to 5.75 gph by this time).
The plane itself is flying beautifully. The aileron trim is able to trim out a very slight left wing heavy tendency and the ship feels like it is gliding through the air effortlessly. Again, no surprise, the plane feels just like an RV (Magnificent!). At this speed (guessing about 135 mph) the roll response is only slightly slower than the -4. The ailerons were extended with the wing so the RV feel has been preserved. I've completed a wide circuit of the pattern and in position to make an approach so I throttle back and I can immediately tell that the glide ratio is significantly higher than the -4. The longer wing is having more effect than I thought it would even with the heavier engine. This -8 with a 20B ended up weighing about 70 pounds more than the average one equipped with an 0 - 360 and fixed pitch prop and about the same as one equipped with an IO - 360 with constant speed prop. Empty weight (but with oil) is 1150 lbs. All the attention to weight control has paid off. I throttle up for a go around and the FBW throttle responds well, no detectable throttle lag at all.
The higher than expected oil and water temps are distracting me from data gathering (Rats, I haven't had time to replace the EM2 with a data logging EM3 yet) so I make a few more circuits of the field and setup for an approach. I crank in more flaps early to kill off the airspeed and excess glide ratio and intentionally do not look at the ASI to avoid being confused. Wheel landing touchdown is perfect and now I glance at the ASI and see 40 MPH. Obviously wrong.
All in all, a great first flight. The RV-8 is going to be exactly the airplane I was hoping for. Still a lot of testing and tweaking to do.
Tracy Crook | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
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Charles Heathco
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 201
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:43 am Post subject: At long last, First Flight. |
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OK, Tracy, there is a guy in NC with a rotary in a 6, cant think of his name right now, maybe he will respond, Chas
[quote] ---
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Ed Anderson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 475
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:54 am Post subject: At long last, First Flight. |
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Thanks Chas,
Tracy and I have know each other since about 1995 – and I was delighted to see his third rotary engine type (a three rotor capable of 300 HP) powering his new
RV-8. His light weight rotary powered RV-4 was the winner of the Sun & Fun 100 air race back in 2003 or so, I expect the Rv-8 follows in its smaller brother’s footsteps.
Tracy’s RV-8 is truly an impressive bit of engineering with the equipment and changes he has made.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.flyrotary.com/
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm[url=http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html][/url]
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of charlie heathco
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 6:41 AM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: At long last, First Flight.
OK, Tracy, there is a guy in NC with a rotary in a 6, cant think of his name right now, maybe he will respond, Chas
[quote]
---
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_________________
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com |
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Charles Heathco
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 201
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:46 pm Post subject: At long last, First Flight. |
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Thanks Ed, sorry I couldnt think of your name. I remember yourr storyu about your long dead stick landing a few years ago. How many HP does your rotary have? Aslo Do you know how Tracy's engind stacks up against Mikes 540 in his super 8? Charlie Heathco
[quote] ---
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n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:19 am Post subject: At long last, First Flight. |
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Congrats to you Tracy. Experimental engines are ALOT of work.... Don't ask how I know either <G>.
As a side note here is a bizzare posting from some guy I have never met or even know...
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This posting that was on the internet was forwarded to me by several friends.......
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the "801"
“This is an accident waiting to happen. The motor mount is incorrectly designed with un triangulated bays and bent tubes in tension and compression. The firewall forward weight is at least 450 pounds aluminum block or no aluminum block. No mention is made of beefing up the fuselage to take the vastly increased bending loads during landing and high G turns not to mention the increased bending loads on the wing spars. Zenairs are not over designed to begin with having very thin skins.
"The fuel burn is better then expected though and I am presently confirming the JPI 450 for accuracy. Cruise (at) 11,000 msl is producing 5.9 0 -6.3 gallons an hour."
The numbers quoted above shows a lack of understanding about engine engineering in general. The fuel burn quoted at 6 gallons an hour or 37 pounds an hour means the engine is only generating 83 HP giving it the benefit of a BSFC number of .45. In the unlikely event the BSFC is as low as .40 the HP then would be 93 HP at the absolute maximum. Now you have a 450 pound firewall forward weight putting out 93 HP at cruise.
Something is seriously wrong.
"The numbers I am shooting for are one pound of engine weight for each horsepower and a small total engine profile that will fit in most airframes."
What he is saying here is he things he is going to get 350 to 400 HP with a 1.43:1 PSRU ratio. With a 2600 RPM prop that is 3700 engine RPM. No way is that going to happen.
This person is totally clueless.
I am really worried here. Probably one of the most dangerous airplanes I have seen in a very long time.
Paul Lamar”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know who this "person" is or what his qualifications, but..
I am compelled to answer his hatchet job on every topic.
My project is a one of a kind. I had no group, forum or any other source to go to during the design, and test flying of my experimental aircraft, so all the calculations, fabrications and installations are a one off and done to the best of my ability using past life experiences from fabricating stuff on race boats, cars and god only knows whatever I have modified in earlier years.
I built my plane, 3000 + hours of MY time. I didn't but a half built one, or a completed one to use a test bed for my powerplant. I have been flying for almost 30 years and owned several other planes.
My experimental plane has been flying for 5 years and 300 hours. Been flown in air from 97f to -37f. Has over 500 landing, been flown from JAC, 6430 msl to 18,000 feet, full throttle, !! over a couple of dozen times to test it for strength. Been flown in all other power settings to comfirm and quantify data. Tested to +3.5g's to - 2.5 g's. Flown to OSH and back... not trucked there as others seem to do to display their creations.
My responses..
1- When is this " accident" going to happen ??
2- The mount is designed by me using triangulation, just go to my web site and look at the pics.
3- There are NO bent tubes in my mount. there are intersecting angles but that happens on ALL mounts. At those intersections the area is beefed up internally. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean crap.
4- I know EXACTLY what it weighs. I don't guess like he seems to. And it is less then his "estimation"
5- Of course I beefed up the airframe as I built it. Just because I didn't state that on my website should not give him a pass at a free shot.
6- Zenith Aircraft seem to be an "issue" to him. Mine has twice the "suggested" HP and still has not broken in half.
7- The plane has so much power that at cruise I can throttle back to ALOT.. A 801 has alot of aerodynamic drag. I can run 90(at) 6.4 GPH or 110(at) 17 GPH. The plane hits a brick wall so why burn three times the fuel to go a little faster. If I wanted to go fast I would have built another type plane. You would think a guy like him could draw a simple conclusion.
8- I have probably built, raced and tested more engines hen he can dream about.
9- BSFC of .45 ??? Jeez. I would be embarrased to tune a motor that rich.
10- Nothing is " seriously wrong"............. I am seriously throttled back.
11- The motor is capable of 600 + Hp in different trim. ie, different redrive ratio, different intake design, etc. The motor will not gain any more weight by changing componants, so 350-400 Hp is a no brainer.. On MY plane I purposely stayed with 1.43-1 because it for sure doen not need any more power.
12- Where did he get the 3700 RPM # from ? I turn the motor alot higher then that on take off. Yeah, the prop is kinda noisy but nothing worse then what noise a seaplane makes with a large diameter prop.
13- """ Totally Clueless""" Ya wanna bet..
And in closing all I can add is
" I am really worried here. Probably one of the most dangerous airplanes I have seen in a very long time. "
Geez... Where was he 5 years and 300 hours ago ??????.
Ben Haas.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
____________________________________________________________
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tracy(at)rotaryaviation.c
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:25 am Post subject: At long last, First Flight. |
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Thanks! It's always interesting to hear these critiques by Mr. Lamar : )
I know what you mean about the misunderstanding concerning fuel burn at cruise. Part of it is the assumption that cruise is always done at 75% power. The planes we build are generally hotrods compared to a lot of GA planes and the flight envelop includes a much wider spread of useful throttle settings. I wonder what he would have said about my 300 HP engine burning 5.75 GPH : ) Of COURSE it wasn't making 75% of 300 HP at that time. Hell, when I'm just going up for an evening flight to watch the sun set I'm usually burning 3.8 GPH in my -4.
I often get questions like "Aren't you worried about exceeding Vne with that big engine?". It's like there is an assumption that the throttle MUST be at WOT. In truth, I will never be able to use all 300 HP the 20B is capable of. In level flight at SL I'm sure it will easily exceed Vne at WOT so can't use it there. I have a fixed pitch prop so I'll only see about 245 HP in climb at Vy due to rpm being lower. The main idea behind the 20B engine was to have around 125 HP left when up in class A airspace. That's where the longer wing earns its keep as well.
Don't sweat those words from such 'experts'. Keep on Experimenting!
Tracy Crook
On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 10:09 AM, n801bh(at)netzero.com (n801bh(at)netzero.com) <n801bh(at)netzero.com (n801bh(at)netzero.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Congrats to you Tracy. Experimental engines are ALOT of work.... Don't ask how I know either <G>.
As a side note here is a bizzare posting from some guy I have never met or even know...
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This posting that was on the internet was forwarded to me by several friends.......
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the "801"
“This is an accident waiting to happen. The motor mount is incorrectly designed with un triangulated bays and bent tubes in tension and compression. The firewall forward weight is at least 450 pounds aluminum block or no aluminum block. No mention is made of beefing up the fuselage to take the vastly increased bending loads during landing and high G turns not to mention the increased bending loads on the wing spars. Zenairs are not over designed to begin with having very thin skins.
"The fuel burn is better then expected though and I am presently confirming the JPI 450 for accuracy. Cruise (at) 11,000 msl is producing 5.9 0 -6.3 gallons an hour."
The numbers quoted above shows a lack of understanding about engine engineering in general. The fuel burn quoted at 6 gallons an hour or 37 pounds an hour means the engine is only generating 83 HP giving it the benefit of a BSFC number of .45. In the unlikely event the BSFC is as low as .40 the HP then would be 93 HP at the absolute maximum. Now you have a 450 pound firewall forward weight putting out 93 HP at cruise.
Something is seriously wrong.
"The numbers I am shooting for are one pound of engine weight for each horsepower and a small total engine profile that will fit in most airframes."
What he is saying here is he things he is going to get 350 to 400 HP with a 1.43:1 PSRU ratio. With a 2600 RPM prop that is 3700 engine RPM. No way is that going to happen.
This person is totally clueless.
I am really worried here. Probably one of the most dangerous airplanes I have seen in a very long time.
Paul Lamar”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know who this "person" is or what his qualifications, but..
I am compelled to answer his hatchet job on every topic.
My project is a one of a kind. I had no group, forum or any other source to go to during the design, and test flying of my experimental aircraft, so all the calculations, fabrications and installations are a one off and done to the best of my ability using past life experiences from fabricating stuff on race boats, cars and god only knows whatever I have modified in earlier years.
I built my plane, 3000 + hours of MY time. I didn't but a half built one, or a completed one to use a test bed for my powerplant. I have been flying for almost 30 years and owned several other planes.
My experimental plane has been flying for 5 years and 300 hours. Been flown in air from 97f to -37f. Has over 500 landing, been flown from JAC, 6430 msl to 18,000 feet, full throttle, !! over a couple of dozen times to test it for strength. Been flown in all other power settings to comfirm and quantify data. Tested to +3.5g's to - 2.5 g's. Flown to OSH and back... not trucked there as others seem to do to display their creations.
My responses..
1- When is this " accident" going to happen ??
2- The mount is designed by me using triangulation, just go to my web site and look at the pics.
3- There are NO bent tubes in my mount. there are intersecting angles but that happens on ALL mounts. At those intersections the area is beefed up internally. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean crap.
4- I know EXACTLY what it weighs. I don't guess like he seems to. And it is less then his "estimation"
5- Of course I beefed up the airframe as I built it. Just because I didn't state that on my website should not give him a pass at a free shot.
6- Zenith Aircraft seem to be an "issue" to him. Mine has twice the "suggested" HP and still has not broken in half.
7- The plane has so much power that at cruise I can throttle back to ALOT.. A 801 has alot of aerodynamic drag. I can run 90(at) 6.4 GPH or 110(at) 17 GPH. The plane hits a brick wall so why burn three times the fuel to go a little faster. If I wanted to go fast I would have built another type plane. You would think a guy like him could draw a simple conclusion.
8- I have probably built, raced and tested more engines hen he can dream about.
9- BSFC of .45 ??? Jeez. I would be embarrased to tune a motor that rich.
10- Nothing is " seriously wrong"............. I am seriously throttled back.
11- The motor is capable of 600 + Hp in different trim. ie, different redrive ratio, different intake design, etc. The motor will not gain any more weight by changing componants, so 350-400 Hp is a no brainer.. On MY plane I purposely stayed with 1.43-1 because it for sure doen not need any more power.
12- Where did he get the 3700 RPM # from ? I turn the motor alot higher then that on take off. Yeah, the prop is kinda noisy but nothing worse then what noise a seaplane makes with a large diameter prop.
13- """ Totally Clueless""" Ya wanna bet..
And in closing all I can add is
" I am really worried here. Probably one of the most dangerous airplanes I have seen in a very long time. "
Geez... Where was he 5 years and 300 hours ago ??????.
Ben Haas.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
____________________________________________________________
Top brands, low prices. Find the right air conditioner for you. Click Now!
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n801bh(at)netzero.com
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:25 pm Post subject: At long last, First Flight. |
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Thanks for the support Tracy. I did google his name a few days ago and found out about his Rotary board. I joined and have been reading the most "entertaining" comments he makes. To be fair I did email this to him first to give him a chance to respond,,, something he didn't give me, but unfortunately it appears my response was deleted so his readers could not view it. Wanna bet they will see it elsewhere ?? <GG> Oh yeah, it also appears I have been BANNED from his forum too. Yippee. !!!!
Tailwinds guys.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
--------
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halbenjamin(at)optonline.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:29 pm Post subject: At long last, First Flight. |
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Hi Tracey C
6nbsp;
Congratulations on the successful 6nbsp;first flight E Hope to see you with the new plane at Sun 6amp; Fun next year E Good luck with the rest of your test program E
6nbsp;
Hal Benjamin
RV4 - Long Island C NY
Finishing 6nbsp;the last 1 E2 million things
Do not archive
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