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Jimmy Young
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 182
Location: Missouri City, TX
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 Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:08 pm Post subject: New tailwires installed |
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Kolbers,
I installed all new tailwires after I found my cracked tang recently. The tangs are 12 GA single-hole stainless with a "never-kink" bushing and the cable is 3/32 stainless. I got the supplies from Air-Tech in New Orleans.
The thicker tangs should hopefully never be a problem. I'm not sure what the thickness is on the 4 hole tangs, but these are about 50% thicker. I have never done any cable rigging before, and used a "split-bolt" to hold the cables after I tightened them up prior to swedging the nico-press connectors. I did have the turnbuckles on before, but now I don't. I'll have to keep an eye on them to watch for any stretching or loosening of the cables, as I'm not sure if they tend to stretch over time.
We had a much needed rain out today here in the Houston area, so it was a good day to do maintenance. Also changed my break-in oil on the HKS, and may get to fly some tomorrow weather permitting.
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Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700 |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:22 pm Post subject: New tailwires installed |
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I'm not sure if they tend to stretch over time.
>
Jimmy Y/Gang:
I have observed from my own use, the cables will get settled in initially
and may loosen a bit. However, after you start compiling flight hours, the
cables will loosen because of the small bearing area between the thimble and
the tang.
john h
mkIII
Rock House, Oregon
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:12 am Post subject: New tailwires installed |
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Jimmy, I thought long and hard about whether to post this to the forum or to contact you directly. I decided to go to the forum because I believe this is a safety related issue.I believe you need to redo your cables.
Here's why: This is from FAA publication 43.13 1B "Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices - Aircraft Inspection and Repair", Chapter 7. Aircraft hardware, control cables, and turnbuckles, Page 33:
c. Thimble-Eye Splice. Before undertaking a thimble-eye splice, initially position the cable so the end will extend slightly beyond the sleeve, as the sleeve will elongate somewhat when it is compressed. If the cable end is inside the sleeve, the splice may not hold the full strength of the cable. It is desirable that the oval sleeve be placed in close proximity to the thimble points, so that when compressed, the sleeve will contact the thimble [b][i]as shown in figure 7-14. The sharp ends of the thimble may be cut off before being used; however, make certain the thimble is firmly secured in the cable loop after the splice has been completed. When using a sleeve requiring three compressions, make the center compression first, the compression next to the thimble second, and the one farthest from the thimble last.[/i][/b]
(Note: Bolding and italicizing done by me for emphasis)
Compare figure 7-14 with the second photo from your post. When you installed the Never Kinks you failed to reclose the end of the thimbles. This has provided a place for the end of the thimble to wear the cable strands and it is almost completely uninspectable. There is also a danger that the cable can flex and come off the thimble entirely so that the cable will ride directly on the hole in the tang.
Never Kinks: I would not use them. They were created originally for the generation of hang gliders (circa 1976 / 77) with pop open setup that pulled all the cables taught when the frame was fully extended. If the cable was twisted on the tang the thimble would get kinked, hence the name. This is not a concern on the tail of the Kolb because you must connect the lower wires at the base of the vertical stabilizer. If a thimble is twisted it becomes immediately obvious as it is impossible to assemble the tail until the twist is removed. The problem is, like the open thimble they create an uninspectable area in the cable assembly in the area John H. warns about, the contact area of the thimble and the tang.
Rick Girard
On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 8:08 PM, Jimmy Young <jdy100(at)comcast.net (jdy100(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jimmy Young" <jdy100(at)comcast.net (jdy100(at)comcast.net)>
Kolbers,
I installed all new tailwires after I found my cracked tang recently. The tangs are 12 GA single-hole stainless with a "never-kink" bushing and the cable is 3/32 stainless. I got the supplies from Air-Tech in New Orleans.
The thicker tangs should hopefully never be a problem. I'm not sure what the thickness is on the 4 hole tangs, but these are about 50% thicker. I have never done any cable rigging before, and used a "split-bolt" to hold the cables after I tightened them up prior to swedging the nico-press connectors. I did have the turnbuckles on before, but now I don't. I'll have to keep an eye on them to watch for any stretching or loosening of the cables, as I'm not sure if they tend to stretch over time.
We had a much needed rain out today here in the Houston area, so it was a good day to do maintenance. Also changed my break-in oil on the HKS, and may get to fly some tomorrow weather permitting.
--------
Jimmy Young
FS II, HKS 700
N7043P
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262735#262735
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn0501_391.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn0505_107.jpg
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arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
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="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:49 am Post subject: New tailwires installed |
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Rick, quite right. As an A&P I should have caught that too. _I didn't look close at the second pic.It won't fail today or tomorrow but it will wear faster with the nico not snug to the thimble.
If and when I redo my tail cables I want to create tangs that don't have a sharp wear edge on them.
BB
On 13, Sep 2009, at 7:11 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
[quote]Jimmy, I thought long and hard about whether to post this to the forum or to contact you directly. I decided to go to the forum because I believe this is a safety related issue.I believe you need to redo your cables.
Here's why: This is from FAA publication 43.13 1B "Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices - Aircraft Inspection and Repair", Chapter 7. Aircraft hardware, control cables, and turnbuckles, Page 33:
c. Thimble-Eye Splice. Before undertaking a thimble-eye splice, initially position the cable so the end will extend slightly beyond the sleeve, as the sleeve will elongate somewhat when it is compressed. If the cable end is inside the sleeve, the splice may not hold the full strength of the cable. It is desirable that the oval sleeve be placed in close proximity to the thimble points, so that when compressed, the sleeve will contact the thimble [b][i]as shown in figure 7-14. The sharp ends of the thimble may be cut off before being used; however, make certain the thimble is firmly secured in the cable loop after the splice has been completed. When using a sleeve requiring three compressions, make the center compression first, the compression next to the thimble second, and the one farthest from the thimble last.[/i][/b]
(Note: Bolding and italicizing done by me for emphasis)
Compare figure 7-14 with the second photo from your post. When you installed the Never Kinks you failed to reclose the end of the thimbles. This has provided a place for the end of the thimble to wear the cable strands and it is almost completely uninspectable. There is also a danger that the cable can flex and come off the thimble entirely so that the cable will ride directly on the hole in the tang.
Never Kinks: I would not use them. They were created originally for the generation of hang gliders (circa 1976 / 77) with pop open setup that pulled all the cables taught when the frame was fully extended. If the cable was twisted on the tang the thimble would get kinked, hence the name. This is not a concern on the tail of the Kolb because you must connect the lower wires at the base of the vertical stabilizer. If a thimble is twisted it becomes immediately obvious as it is impossible to assemble the tail until the twist is removed. The problem is, like the open thimble they create an uninspectable area in the cable assembly in the area John H. warns about, the contact area of the thimble and the tang.
Rick Girard
On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 8:08 PM, Jimmy Young <jdy100(at)comcast.net (jdy100(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jimmy Young" <jdy100(at)comcast.net (jdy100(at)comcast.net)>
Kolbers,
I installed all new tailwires after I found my cracked tang recently. The tangs are 12 GA single-hole stainless with a "never-kink" bushing and the cable is 3/32 stainless. I got the supplies from Air-Tech in New Orleans.
The thicker tangs should hopefully never be a problem. I'm not sure what the thickness is on the 4 hole tangs, but these are about 50% thicker. I have never done any cable rigging before, and used a "split-bolt" to hold the cables after I tightened them up prior to swedging the nico-press connectors. I did have the turnbuckles on before, but now I don't. I'll have to keep an eye on them to watch for any stretching or loosening of the cables, as I'm not sure if they tend to stretch over time.
We had a much needed rain out today here in the Houston area, so it was a good day to do maintenance. Also changed my break-in oil on the HKS, and may get to fly some tomorrow weather permitting.
--------
Jimmy Young
FS II, HKS 700
N7043P
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262735#262735
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn0501_391.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn0505_107.jpg
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arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
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http://forums.matronics.com
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le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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<AC 43.13 1b figure 7-14.jpg>
[b]
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zeprep251(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:53 am Post subject: New tailwires installed |
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Good catch Rick,
Looks like the Never Kinks hold the thimbles open at the tips,so its difficult to get the tips together at the sleeves.
G.Aman
--
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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:04 am Post subject: New tailwires installed |
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Bob, Years ago I used a sailboat tang on a glider I rewired. The tang had a piece of tube swaged into one hole like a grommet so the contact surface between tang and thimble was a broader area than just to edges of a hole.
Rick Girard
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 7:48 AM, robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:
[quote] Rick, quite right. As an A&P I should have caught that too. _I didn't look close at the second pic.It won't fail today or tomorrow but it will wear faster with the nico not snug to the thimble.
If and when I redo my tail cables I want to create tangs that don't have a sharp wear edge on them.
BB
On 13, Sep 2009, at 7:11 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
| Quote: | Jimmy, I thought long and hard about whether to post this to the forum or to contact you directly. I decided to go to the forum because I believe this is a safety related issue. I believe you need to redo your cables.
Here's why: This is from FAA publication 43.13 1B "Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices - Aircraft Inspection and Repair", Chapter 7. Aircraft hardware, control cables, and turnbuckles, Page 33:
c. Thimble-Eye Splice. Before undertaking a thimble-eye splice, initially position the cable so the end will extend slightly beyond the sleeve, as the sleeve will elongate somewhat when it is compressed. If the cable end is inside the sleeve, the splice may not hold the full strength of the cable. It is desirable that the oval sleeve be placed in close proximity to the thimble points, so that when compressed, the sleeve will contact the thimble [b][i]as shown in figure 7-14. The sharp ends of the thimble may be cut off before being used; however, make certain the thimble is firmly secured in the cable loop after the splice has been completed. When using a sleeve requiring three compressions, make the center compression first, the compression next to the thimble second, and the one farthest from the thimble last.[/i][/b]
(Note: Bolding and italicizing done by me for emphasis)
Compare figure 7-14 with the second photo from your post. When you installed the Never Kinks you failed to reclose the end of the thimbles. This has provided a place for the end of the thimble to wear the cable strands and it is almost completely uninspectable. There is also a danger that the cable can flex and come off the thimble entirely so that the cable will ride directly on the hole in the tang.
Never Kinks: I would not use them. They were created originally for the generation of hang gliders (circa 1976 / 77) with pop open setup that pulled all the cables taught when the frame was fully extended. If the cable was twisted on the tang the thimble would get kinked, hence the name. This is not a concern on the tail of the Kolb because you must connect the lower wires at the base of the vertical stabilizer. If a thimble is twisted it becomes immediately obvious as it is impossible to assemble the tail until the twist is removed. The problem is, like the open thimble they create an uninspectable area in the cable assembly in the area John H. warns about, the contact area of the thimble and the tang.
Rick Girard
On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 8:08 PM, Jimmy Young <jdy100(at)comcast.net (jdy100(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jimmy Young" <jdy100(at)comcast.net (jdy100(at)comcast.net)>
Kolbers,
I installed all new tailwires after I found my cracked tang recently. The tangs are 12 GA single-hole stainless with a "never-kink" bushing and the cable is 3/32 stainless. I got the supplies from Air-Tech in New Orleans.
The thicker tangs should hopefully never be a problem. I'm not sure what the thickness is on the 4 hole tangs, but these are about 50% thicker. I have never done any cable rigging before, and used a "split-bolt" to hold the cables after I tightened them up prior to swedging the nico-press connectors. I did have the turnbuckles on before, but now I don't. I'll have to keep an eye on them to watch for any stretching or loosening of the cables, as I'm not sure if they tend to stretch over time.
We had a much needed rain out today here in the Houston area, so it was a good day to do maintenance. Also changed my break-in oil on the HKS, and may get to fly some tomorrow weather permitting.
--------
Jimmy Young
FS II, HKS 700
N7043P
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262735#262735
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn0501_391.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn0505_107.jpg
===========
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
http://forums.matronics.com
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le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
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<AC 43.13 1b figure 7-14.jpg>
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| Quote: |
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:12 am Post subject: New tailwires installed |
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Two, two edges. I really need to get a better proof reader.
Rick
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 8:03 AM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Bob, Years ago I used a sailboat tang on a glider I rewired. The tang had a piece of tube swaged into one hole like a grommet so the contact surface between tang and thimble was a broader area than just to edges of a hole.
Rick Girard
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 7:48 AM, robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Rick, quite right. As an A&P I should have caught that too. _I didn't look close at the second pic.It won't fail today or tomorrow but it will wear faster with the nico not snug to the thimble.
If and when I redo my tail cables I want to create tangs that don't have a sharp wear edge on them.
BB
On 13, Sep 2009, at 7:11 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
| Quote: | Jimmy, I thought long and hard about whether to post this to the forum or to contact you directly. I decided to go to the forum because I believe this is a safety related issue. I believe you need to redo your cables.
Here's why: This is from FAA publication 43.13 1B "Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices - Aircraft Inspection and Repair", Chapter 7. Aircraft hardware, control cables, and turnbuckles, Page 33:
c. Thimble-Eye Splice. Before undertaking a thimble-eye splice, initially position the cable so the end will extend slightly beyond the sleeve, as the sleeve will elongate somewhat when it is compressed. If the cable end is inside the sleeve, the splice may not hold the full strength of the cable. It is desirable that the oval sleeve be placed in close proximity to the thimble points, so that when compressed, the sleeve will contact the thimble [b][i]as shown in figure 7-14. The sharp ends of the thimble may be cut off before being used; however, make certain the thimble is firmly secured in the cable loop after the splice has been completed. When using a sleeve requiring three compressions, make the center compression first, the compression next to the thimble second, and the one farthest from the thimble last.[/i][/b]
(Note: Bolding and italicizing done by me for emphasis)
Compare figure 7-14 with the second photo from your post. When you installed the Never Kinks you failed to reclose the end of the thimbles. This has provided a place for the end of the thimble to wear the cable strands and it is almost completely uninspectable. There is also a danger that the cable can flex and come off the thimble entirely so that the cable will ride directly on the hole in the tang.
Never Kinks: I would not use them. They were created originally for the generation of hang gliders (circa 1976 / 77) with pop open setup that pulled all the cables taught when the frame was fully extended. If the cable was twisted on the tang the thimble would get kinked, hence the name. This is not a concern on the tail of the Kolb because you must connect the lower wires at the base of the vertical stabilizer. If a thimble is twisted it becomes immediately obvious as it is impossible to assemble the tail until the twist is removed. The problem is, like the open thimble they create an uninspectable area in the cable assembly in the area John H. warns about, the contact area of the thimble and the tang.
Rick Girard
On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 8:08 PM, Jimmy Young <jdy100(at)comcast.net (jdy100(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jimmy Young" <jdy100(at)comcast.net (jdy100(at)comcast.net)>
Kolbers,
I installed all new tailwires after I found my cracked tang recently. The tangs are 12 GA single-hole stainless with a "never-kink" bushing and the cable is 3/32 stainless. I got the supplies from Air-Tech in New Orleans.
The thicker tangs should hopefully never be a problem. I'm not sure what the thickness is on the 4 hole tangs, but these are about 50% thicker. I have never done any cable rigging before, and used a "split-bolt" to hold the cables after I tightened them up prior to swedging the nico-press connectors. I did have the turnbuckles on before, but now I don't. I'll have to keep an eye on them to watch for any stretching or loosening of the cables, as I'm not sure if they tend to stretch over time.
We had a much needed rain out today here in the Houston area, so it was a good day to do maintenance. Also changed my break-in oil on the HKS, and may get to fly some tomorrow weather permitting.
--------
Jimmy Young
FS II, HKS 700
N7043P
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262735#262735
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn0501_391.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn0505_107.jpg
===========
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
http://forums.matronics.com
===========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
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<AC 43.13 1b figure 7-14.jpg>
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get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: New tailwires installed |
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Good Morning Gang:
It is the concensus of the Rock House Flying Club, me and Larry C, that we would fly with Jimmy Y's tail wires.
Not to be contrary, I agree his terminals don't agree entirely with the AC. However, I don't think they are going anywhere any time soon. In fact, I think where will be reduced if the Never Kink reduces vibration on the thimble and tang.
I missed Jimmy's photos initially. The main thing I would have done differently would be to make the bends as close to the bolt and washer as possible to reduce side bending forces. I like the cable to pull as straight from the point of attachment as possible.
Again, my own personal opinion and worth what you all paid for it.
john h
mkIII
Rock House, Oregon, Flying Club (among other things) 
[quote]
Jimmy, I thought long and hard about whether to post this to the forum or to contact you directly. I decided to go to the forum because I believe this is a safety related issue. I believe you need to redo your cables.
Rick Girard
[b]
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:51 am Post subject: New tailwires installed |
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Hey Gang:
Shoulda proofed my previous. "where" should have been "wear".
john h
mkIII
[quote] any time soon. In fact, I think where will be reduced if the
[b]
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:27 am Post subject: New tailwires installed |
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No problem C John. We'll let this one slide C but watch it! (just kidding....weekend humor)
BTW C I concur that although the cable end isn't constructed exactly as it should have been C in my opinion I wouldn't go to the trouble of chucking them out and starting over just yet.
Rick is right C they weren't built like they should have been C but I think I'd just keep a close eye on them C and leave them alone.
Just my opinon C too.
Mike Welch
From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New tailwires installed
Date: Sun C 13 Sep 2009 07:50:57 -0600
Hey Gang:
Shoulda proofed my previous. "where" should have been "wear".
john h
mkIII
Ready for Fall shows? Use Bing to find helpful ratings and reviews on digital tv's. Click here. [quote][b]
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neilsenrm(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:18 pm Post subject: New tailwires installed |
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I installed never kinks on my VW powered MKIIIc years ago on my tail wires. I also painted the tail wires with a liquid plastic used for dipping tool handles into it.
The never kinks tend to hold the thimbles in place on the tangs so I doubt that they would cause any ware but when I get back to mid Michigan I will inspect them. I currently have almost 290 hours with the never kinks installed.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
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Jimmy Young
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 182
Location: Missouri City, TX
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: New tailwires installed |
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Kolb gang,
I appreciate all the input on this little project.
I had a friend, Bill Terrell, look at the cables today. He's been around a while, 83 years I believe. He has built quite a few planes in his life, most recently a Murphy Maverick that he completed in '05. He pretty much said it ain't perfect, but it will work fine. That's good enough for me.
I like the Never-Kinks. They are not keeping the thimble from closing as someone mentioned. The thimble isn't closed because the nicopress slipped that little amount while I was crimping. One thing they will do is help the thimble keep it's shape so it can't fold over the tang.
I took it up for a while today, flew great. It's so nice having an adventure machine like this Kolb, I'm ready to take on some cross-country. Hey Nauga Field, you may get a surprise visitor before the official Dec 6th fly-in!
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700 |
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