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Oil problem
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:26 pm Post subject: Oil problem

hi,

I run a jabi 2200 on a Kolb 3xtra microlight her in the UK  and have a 

problem

On starting the oil pressure goes at once to its proper place but over about 

10 minutes it starts to decay. In half an hour it is right back at the start 

of the yellow quadrant.



I am no mechanic but I think filter and pump as the first place to 

investigate. Any comments?  Only about 70 hours on the engine.



Cheers



Pat

plus2s

Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 65
Location: NEW ZEALAND

Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:10 pm Post subject: Oil problem

2 Questions Pat

  

 What oil are you using ? and at what revs is it in the yellow ?

  

 presume you have changed the filter twice by now

  

 Regards

 Keith



--- On Mon, 21/9/09, pj.ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet..com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: pj.ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>

Subject: Oil problem

To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

Received: Monday, 21 September, 2009, 9:22 AM



 --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)>



hi,

I run a jabi 2200 on a Kolb 3xtra microlight her in the UK  and have a problem

On starting the oil pressure goes at once to its proper place but over about 10 minutes it starts to decay. In half an hour it is right back at the start of the yellow quadrant.



I am no mechanic but I think filter and pump as the first place to investigate.. Any comments?  Only about 70 hours on the engine.



Cheers

http://www.matronic/forums.matronics.com/" target=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com

bsp;                     -Matt Dralle, List m/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
  [quote][b]

imap8ntr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: Oil problem

Good Questions.

 Just for curiosity do you notice  more oil consumption when using multigrade oil that when using  100W?

 I notice that when my oil filter  gets to be about 25 hr old oil pressure starts to drop and it is time to change  everything.  I get better oil pressure and longer when using the NAPA Gold  filter than the Fram cheepo.

 Ivan

 Phoenix, AZ 

 [quote]   ---

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:54 pm Post subject: Oil problem

Pat,

  With engine cold my oil pressure is about 40 psi.As the oil temp starts to climb the pressure runs up to 60 psi.After the normal oil temp is attained the pressure returns to 40 psi and about 25 psi at 900rpm warm idle.Sound familiar?

  G.Aman MK-3C Jabiru 2200A 475hrs

 

   

 

   

 

 --

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:27 am Post subject: Re: Oil problem

Pat,



If your engine has the VDO oil pressure sending unit, that could be the problem. They are notorious for low indication after some time in service. If you can get your hands on an accurate mechanical oil pressure gauge to confirm the actual oil pressure under same conditions, this should help you diagnose the source of the low reading. I have both a mechanical oil pressure gauge installed and the VDO sending unit giving its signal to the Grand Rapids EIS. The EIS oil pressure reading is generally about 5-7 psi lower than the mechanical gauge.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

pete(at)usjabiru.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:17 am Post subject: Oil problem

More likely the oil pressure sending unit



Pete



--

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:49 am Post subject: Oil problem

If your engine has the VDO oil pressure sending unit, that could be the 

problem.>>



Hi Thom.



Flew to a repairer about 30 minutes away this morning. The fix which he 

suggested involved removing the filter and putting another washer behind the 

spring which keeps the relief valve from opening. Thinking was that if the 

spring is a bit weak the relief valve is opening at too low a pressure.

this seemed to make sense but as he didn`t have a replacement filter we 

decided to postpone the job for a couple of days.

However while furkling about we noticed the the VDO sensor was just touching 

the exhaust pipe so we moved the exhaust about 1/4 inch. Flying home the 

pressure didn`t drop below 200. Has this fixed the problem?. maybe. Further 

flying required and by the time I landed it had got so rough I did not want 

to fly again so i wait for another window.



Thanks everyone for their input. It may be needed yet.



Cheers



Pat

Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:50 am Post subject: Oil problem

Pat,

  

 The advice you got from Pete at USJabiru was not from ignorance.  It  was from the largest dealer of Jabiru engines and aircraft in the  world.

  

 The senders frequently have problems.  Change washers only after you  change the sender.

  

 Doug Koenigsberg

  

 In a message dated 9/21/2009 11:50:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "pj.ladd"    <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>



If your engine has the VDO oil pressure    sending unit, that could be the 

problem.>>



Hi    Thom.



Flew to a repairer about 30 minutes away this morning. The fix    which he 

suggested involved removing the filter and putting another washer    behind the 

spring which keeps the relief valve from opening. Thinking was    that if the 

spring is a bit weak the relief valve is opening at too low a    pressure.

this seemed to make sense but as he didn`t have a replacement    filter we 

decided to postpone the job for a couple of days.

However    while furkling about we noticed the the VDO sensor was just touching 

the    exhaust pipe so we moved the exhaust about 1/4 inch. Flying home the    

pressure didn`t drop below 200. Has this fixed the problem?. maybe.    Further 

flying required and by the time I landed it had got so rough I did    not want 

to fly again so i wait for another window.



Thanks everyone    for their input. It may be needed yet.



Cheers



Pat  

	


 

  

  [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:40 am Post subject: Oil problem

The senders frequently have problems.  Change  washers only after you  

change the sender.>>

  

 Hi Doug,

 thanks for the head up.  I have changed the  sender once already.

  

 Pat

 



   [quote][b]

dons701

Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 80
Location: Hershey, PA

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:20 am Post subject: Re: Oil problem

Hi Pat

  I have read this post and I did not see that you have tried temporarily installing a known good mechanical gauge by using a tee under the electric sender. As explained earlier, this would give you a nice comparison of actual pressures as seen from two different sources at the same time. Just use some nylon tubing and temporarily mount the gauge with electrical  zipties in such a way as to allow you to view it from "behind the stick". This would be a ground test of course !!! Please let us know the numbers you see.   

      Don

_________________
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:51 am Post subject: Oil problem

using a tee under the electric sender. >>



Hi Don,



that would seem a practical solution. Unfortunately the gap between the VDO 

and part of the exhaust is just about enough to unscrew the VDO. Certainly 

not enough to introduce another fitting.. I am not saying that it cant be 

done but I suspect that I would finish up with a Christmas Tree of fittings 

probably starting with a 90 degree bend to clear the exhaust. We will see. 

Maybe my slight re arrangement of the exhast will sove the problem. Roll on 

the next opportunity to fly and test.



Thanks for your suggestions everybody



Pat

Clive J

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 340
Location: UK

Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:05 am Post subject: Oil problem

Pat, I can't picture where the exhaust is near the sender?

There are two tapping's on my engines and neither is anywhere near the

exhaust.  

Am I missing something?

Regards, Clive

2200 Jab SP

3300 Esqual LS



--

jetboy

Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 233

Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:08 am Post subject: Re: Oil problem

My original sender failed at around 150 hrs and was replaced with a genuine VDO but placed in the lower port, the one that points directly ahead. I opened up the original and the thin wire resistance coil inside had worn through. 



I fitted a low pressure warning switch to the upper port, as backup.



From an engine health point of view, the lower port is at the main gallery and is the best one to monitor oil pressure delivered to the engine. It reads about 7 psi lower. Why the original sender measures blocked oil filters and pulsations from the pump is a mystery. 



If you have a hydraulic lifter engine and change the relief valve washers it can get expensive.

_________________
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:26 am Post subject: Oil problem

Pat, I can't picture where the exhaust is near the sender?



Hi Clive



I am not surprised.  It is a pusher installation with a very convoluted 

exhaust array with two vertical pipes (among other things). One of them just 

to the rear of the VDO and justs clears it. In fact it is so close it is a 

difficult job to get enough clearance to change the VDO.

As I said in my previous post The exhaust had moved slightly. Just enough to 

make physical contact with the topedge of the VDO.

I pulled the exhaust  to the rear and was able to rebolt it to give about 

1/4 inch clearasnce. I flew this morning for an hour and the oil pressure 

went to 350 kpa immediately at start up. It dropped to 230 within 6 minutes, 

about take off time, and remained at 200/230 kph until I landed so it seems 

that the problem is solved as 230kph puts the  on the top edge of the yellow 

segment on the instrument..

Just for the record this was at 2800 rpm which produces 70 mph.



Once again thanks to everyone for their suggestions.



Cheers



Pat

dons701

Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 80
Location: Hershey, PA

Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Oil problem

Good! It does make sense as the sender works by resistance and intense heat could make the  difference. Perhaps some insulating header wrap or sleeving could ensure reliability, if there is room that is !!

  Don

_________________
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Oil problem

Pat,



You must have a different sort of exhaust system on your Jabiru than I have. I wouldn't doubt it since your noise regulations are stricter than ours in the USA. Attached is a photo of the right rear quarter of my Slingshot. It is high enough resolution that you can zoom in for more detail. What you can't see because it is hidden by the prop, is the oil pressure sending unit (VDO). It is mounted above the base of the oil filter on a Tee with a hard copper line to the mechanical oil pressure gage and the electrical signal going to the EIS. As you can see, the exhaust sy

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Oil problem

accidently hit return key,



....As you can see, the exhaust system is not in play with the VDO oil pressure sender. Do you happen to have a photo of your exhaust system installed? I'm curious about how convoluted it might be to get the silencing results required in the UK.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Oil problem

Senior moment again. I forgot to attach the photo. Here it is.

Jabiru Engine Rt Rear.JPG

Description:

Filesize:

2.31 MB

Viewed:

16257 Time(s)

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:14 am Post subject: Oil problem

the sender works by resistance and intense heat could make the  difference. 

Perhaps some insulating header wrap or sleeving could ensure reliability, if 

there is room that is !!>>



Hi   Don



The removal of the actual contact between the VDO and the exhast has 

obviously worked but there must still be a fair amount of heat radiated 

through the air and this probably affects the temp. sensor also.



Anyone have any suggestions for a meterial which

a) will not pass or will totally reflect heat



b) a thin material, not more than an 1/8th inch. Thinner is better.



c)something easily worked and fixed by a mechanic with five thumbs and no 

training.



Cheers



Pat

dons701

Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 80
Location: Hershey, PA

Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Oil problem

Hi Pat, There is one company called Thermotec that makes many products associated with insulating and controlling heat for automotive racing. They have a header wrap that is 1/16" thick by 1 to 2 inches wide offered in black or tan color that withstands a continuous 2000 degrees. Black would look good for your aircraft. There may be other products out there  now but this product comes to mind as I used it many hotroding years ago. If you download their catalog from their website and go to page 4 you will see what I am suggesting. In addition and if needed, you could install some of the heat shielding material over the sender. I like their fire sleeving for wires. You only need two thumbs. Don.

_________________
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop

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