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Heel brakes or ???
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albertakolbmk3

Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 69
Location: Innisfail, AB

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:58 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ???

Just wondering what most people are using for brake levers... heel, hand etc. on MKIII. I have heel brakes but have mixed feelings. I find that they are spaced so close together and sometimes get in the way.

_________________
Tony B.

Kolb MKIII C
Rotax 582
C Gearbox 3.00:1
WD 66" 3 Blade Prop

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:11 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ???

I have heal brakes on my Mk3C that I feel the levers are to short and I cant get enough pressure on them to get good braking power with the 800-6 Tires I have on it now  I am going to extend the pedals if that doesnt cut it I will make toe brakes next 

    

   Ellery in Maine

 

 

 --

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:27 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ???

At 07:58 PM 10/1/2009, albertakolbmk3 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Just wondering what most people are using for brake levers... heel, hand 

etc. on MKIII. I have heel brakes but have mixed feelings. I find that 

they are spaced so close together and sometimes get in the way.


	


I have heel brakes on my UltraStar and I feel it's the perfect setup.  The 

levers connect to Hegar cylinders driving Black Max brakes.



-Dana

--

  Mr. Cole's Axiom:

The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant; the population is 

growing.

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:47 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ???

I have heel brakes on my Mk III with Azusa brakes. Hate the things. The brakes are adequate for the job, the heel levers make them  difficult to use. They will NOT be on the aircraft next spring.



Rick Girard

 

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 7:22 PM, Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net (d-m-hague(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net (d-m-hague(at)comcast.net)>

 

 At 07:58 PM 10/1/2009, albertakolbmk3 wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Just wondering what most people are using for brake levers... heel, hand etc. on MKIII. I have heel brakes but have mixed feelings. I find that they are spaced so close together and sometimes get in the way.

 	
 



 I have heel brakes on my UltraStar and I feel it's the perfect setup.  The levers connect to Hegar cylinders driving Black Max brakes.

 

 -Dana

 --

  Mr. Cole's Axiom:

 The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant; the population is growing.



 

 

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The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Heel brakes or ???

......I like my toe brakes.....



chris ambrose

M3X/Jab      70.hrs

N327CS

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:03 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ???

I don't have a Mark III, but I do have a Firestar if that  counts. I did have a Mark III with heel brakes, and I didn't like them. I have  tried toe brakes on a 150, didn't like that either. I used to have one hand  brake on the Firestar and changed it to two individual hand brakes on the stick.  I like that a lot. I had to make a "deally bob" to hold the levers, but it was  worth it.

 Larry

 [quote]   ---

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do not archive

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Heel brakes or ???

 	  albertakolbmk3 wrote: 	
		  Just wondering what most people are using for brake levers... heel, hand etc. on MKIII. I have heel brakes but have mixed feelings. I find that they are spaced so close together and sometimes get in the way. 	




Know how you feel. Rigged up a different variation of hand brake levers for the MKIII, you actuate them by pushing straight down with the left hand. Sounds odd, works good, and after you do it once or twice, it becomes very intuitive. Just have to be careful when fastening the seat belt, if you aren't paying attention, you can loop the belt over them.  (Hmmm... Wonder why it takes full power to taxi?)

Here are the pictures.

http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg4.htm



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:13 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ???

Toe brakes on MK111c and like them , they work  great , although I have to admit I would use them more for ground maneuvering  mostly ,long grass runways don't need a lot of braking.

  

 Downunder

 MK111c   

 [quote]   ---

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:06 am Post subject: Re: Heel brakes or ???

My Slingshot has dual caliper Matco brakes. One caliper on each wheel is actuated with a single hand lever operated master cylinder on the stick for straight ahead stopping, i.e., non-differential braking. The other caliper on each wheel is actuated independently from heel operated master cylinders below the rudder pedals. These are used for tight turning. I use them all for added brake capacity during run-ups.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:12 am Post subject: Heel brakes or ???

Hyd. heel brakes on my firestar 2. They work really good , but I HATE  

them . they are difficult

to use & I don"t trust myself to be able to them use correctly if a  

bad situation develops. I'm

not confortable with them even after 100 hrs of flight time and who  

knows how many landings.

On Oct 1, 2009, at 6:58 PM, albertakolbmk3 wrote:

Frank Goodnight

Firestar2

Brownsville , TX

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >



 Just wondering what most people are using for brake levers... heel,  

 hand etc. on MKIII. I have heel brakes but have mixed feelings. I  

 find that they are spaced so close together and sometimes get in the  

 way.



 --------

 Kolb MKIII C

 Rotax 582

 C Gearbox 3.00:1

 WD 66&quot; 3 Blade Prop





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 65944#265944

albertakolbmk3

Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 69
Location: Innisfail, AB

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:41 am Post subject: Re: Heel brakes or ???

Interesting... seems most have heel brakes and they don't like them either. I find mine work really well and that is where the problem lies. A few times after just touching down I accidentally hit one and veered me to that side of the runway. A little scary when your not expecting it. Anyone have pictures of their toe brake setup?

_________________
Tony B.

Kolb MKIII C
Rotax 582
C Gearbox 3.00:1
WD 66" 3 Blade Prop

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:54 am Post subject: Heel brakes or ???

Cherie,

 Heel brakes.They are,they do,but you get used to them.

  G.Aman

 

   

 

   

 

 --

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Heel brakes or ???

Toe brakes are the standard in the aviation world, from th smallest to the biggest planes.   Toe brakes are not complicated or hard to make, it just seems that ultralight designers like to take shortcuts on this item.   Reversing the brakes with the rudder pedals is just a setup for disaster, as albertakolbMKIII just pointed out with his experience.   I have toe brakes, they don't weigh any more than a heel brake setup, the my Kolb has standard controls just like every other plane in the world.   Heel brakes and hand levers can work, but its a design shortcut and substandard.



Mike

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_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:24 am Post subject: Heel brakes or ???

At 11:58 AM 10/2/2009, JetPilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  ...Heel brakes and hand levers can work, but its a design shortcut and 

substandard.


	


I don't agree at all; heel brakes aren't substandard, just a different 

(earlier) standard.



Like probably most on this list, I learned to fly with toe brakes (in a 

C-150).  When I bought my first plane, a 1941 Taylorcraft, it had heel 

brakes.  Took a short while to get used to, but I soon came to prefer 

it.  One disadvantage of toe brakes is that it's easy to inadvertently 

apply brake when using the rudder.



One difference on my T-Craft is that the heel brakes were to the _outside_ 

of the rudder pedals, rather than to the inside as in my UltraStar.  I 

haven't made up my mind which is better... it's been so long since I flew 

the T-Craft the UltraStar didn't feel awkward.



I didn't care for the hand brake on the Quicksilver I was flying for 

awhile, but that _was_ a design shortcut, using bicycle components... and 

pretty anemic to boot.



Thousands of production aircraft have been built with both heel and hand 

brakes.



-Dana

--

  Remember when a trojan was a warrior?

George Alexander

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Heel brakes or ???

 	  JetPilot wrote: 	
		  .............my Kolb has standard controls just like every other plane in the world. 	
   



Maybe most..... certainly many, but hardly  "every other plane in the world."

 	  JetPilot wrote: 	
		  .............Heel brakes and hand levers can work, but its a design shortcut and substandard.



Mike 	




But may be a necessity.  I know the original question related to MKIII's,  but those of us Kolb flyers with smaller nose cones (e.g. Firestars, Fireflys and some Ultrastars), and who have big feet, generally don't have much choice .   Operating the rudder pedals  with size 14 shoes in that small space is sometimes enough of a challenge.  A design to incorporate toe brakes would be more of an accomodation than I think would be worth it in my case.  Work hard to avoid situations where brakes are critical.  Can't always do that, but as some would say... "you pays your money and takes your chances".



As Beauford says..... worth what you paid fer it.



PS: I have moderately effective heel brakes, giving serious consideration to switching to hand lever(s).

_________________
George Alexander
FS II R503
E-LSA N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:29 am Post subject: Heel brakes or ???

The Aeronca Chief had a dandy heel brake design, little levers at the  

bottom of the rudder pedals and cable operated.

-foolproof except when the cables froze with ice in the fairleads on  

the bottom of the gearlegs.

You could turn and brake at your need.

The Champs had an awkward pedal sticking out of the floor.

My MkIII has what I thought at the time I was creating it, a  

brilliant design.  Throttle handle actuated.

I reinforced the throttle bar and had a rod actuate a Girling (copy)  

master cylinder.  There is a little concealed reliever

spring built into the throttle cable at the carb so it will back up  

from closed throttle.

I also put a brake lock in the line so I could do a runup.

Ignorant at the time of the leverage required, the output is puny and  

I have to pull fairly hard to get much to happen.

I haven't retrofitted it because I fly off of grass.

Eventually.

BB

wet and overcast Scottsville, NY

On 2, Oct 2009, at 2:06 PM, George Alexander wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <gtalexander(at)att.net>

 JetPilot wrote:

> .............my Kolb has standard controls just like every other  

> plane in the world.

 Maybe most..... certainly many, but hardly  "every other plane in  

 the world."

 JetPilot wrote:

> .............Heel brakes and hand levers can work, but its a  

> design shortcut and substandard.

>

> Mike

 But may be a necessity.  I know the original question related to  

 MKIII's,  but those of us Kolb flyers with smaller nose cones (e.g.  

 Firestars, Fireflys and some Ultrastars), and who have big feet,  

 generally don't have much choice .   Operating the rudder pedals   

 with size 14 shoes in that small space is sometimes enough of a  

 challenge.  A design to incorporate toe brakes would be more of an  

 accomodation than I think would be worth it in my case.  Work hard  

 to avoid situations where brakes are critical.  Can't always do  

 that, but as some would say... "you pays your money and takes your  

 chances".

 As Beauford says..... worth what you paid fer it.

 --------

 George Alexander

 FS II R503  N709FS

 http://gtalexander.home.att.net

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 66093#266093

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:46 am Post subject: Heel brakes or ???

Been flying the FireFly with home made band brakes activated by a single 

lever on the stick.  Up to this point, I have not found any need for 

separate wheel braking.  I fly off from and to hard surface runways almost 

100%.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:27 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ???

Just wondering what most people are using for brake levers... heel, hand 

etc. on MKIII. I have heel brakes but have mixed feelings. I find that they 

are spaced so close together and sometimes get in the way.

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


	


my heal brakes are close as well,,,,  love them.

Boyd Young

Kolb MKIIIC

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Heel brakes or ???

It makes no difference what a Aeronca , Taylorcraft, or a few small manufacturers may have done 60 years ago, the standard has long since been decided...



The first motorcycles used to have a reverse clutch that had to be constantly squeezed to engage the motor, we have since learned that it was a horrible idea and we now have a world standard that is the opposite.  



Same goes for some old airplanes, lots of things have been tried over the decades in airplanes, big deal...  We now have a standard of toe brakes, and for very good reasons.    Just because something may have been used 60 years ago or even on a very few odd planes, it still does not change the fact that heel brakes, levers, strings, or what every crazy design some people have come up with are a substandard shortcut.   



There will always be a few that say " it works for me " and accept anything, as we have seen on past discussions of Fuel Filters, and other things.  When possible I believe in making my Kolb to accepted Aircraft standards, It's not always possible but I do it where I can, and toe brakes is one that can be easily done on the MK III.   Smaller ultralights and the Firefly may be more difficult, each person will have to decide for themselves.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:49 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ???

 	  Quote: 	
		  ...Heel brakes and hand levers can work, but its a design shortcut and 

substandard.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


	


when I first was building the mkIII  I called and asked Dennis Souder and 

addressed my concerns.   his response was to give them a chance and they 

would grow on you.   they have, and I am very comfortable with them.



a lot of plane manufactures have gone to nose dragging...   that does not 

infer that all tail draggers are obsolete, or sub standard,   just 

different.



Boyd Young

Kolb MkIIIC

Brigham City, Ut.

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