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by0ung(at)brigham.net
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 Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:49 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ??? |
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| Quote: | ...Heel brakes and hand levers can work, but its a design shortcut and
substandard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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when I first was building the mkIII I called and asked Dennis Souder and
addressed my concerns. his response was to give them a chance and they
would grow on you. they have, and I am very comfortable with them.
a lot of plane manufactures have gone to nose dragging... that does not
infer that all tail draggers are obsolete, or sub standard, just
different.
Boyd Young
Kolb MkIIIC
Brigham City, Ut.
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by0ung(at)brigham.net
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:49 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ??? |
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| Quote: | ...Heel brakes and hand levers can work, but its a design shortcut and
substandard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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when I first was building the mkIII I called and asked Dennis Souder and
addressed my concerns. his response was to give them a chance and they
would grow on you. they have, and I am very comfortable with them.
a lot of plane manufactures have gone to nose dragging... that does not
infer that all tail draggers are obsolete, or sub standard, just
different.
Boyd Young
Kolb MkIII
Brigham City, Ut.
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by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:49 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ??? |
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| Quote: | ...Heel brakes and hand levers can work, but its a design shortcut and
substandard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
|
when I first was building the mkIII I called and asked Dennis Souder and
addressed my concerns. his response was to give them a chance and they
would grow on you. they have, and I am very comfortable with them.
a lot of plane manufactures have gone to nose dragging... that does not
infer that all tail draggers are obsolete, or sub standard, just
different.
Boyd Young
Kolb MkIIIC
Brigham City, Ut.
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by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:49 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ??? |
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| Quote: | ...Heel brakes and hand levers can work, but its a design shortcut and
substandard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
|
when I first was building the mkIII I called and asked Dennis Souder and
addressed my concerns. his response was to give them a chance and they
would grow on you. they have, and I am very comfortable with them.
a lot of plane manufactures have gone to nose dragging... that does not
infer that all tail draggers are obsolete, or sub standard, just
different.
Boyd Young
Kolb MkIIIC
Brigham City, Ut.
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by0ung(at)brigham.net
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:51 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ??? |
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about all the duplicates,,, new laptop and software... my bad
do not archive
Boyd
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Jim ODay
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Fargo North Dakota
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Heel brakes or ??? |
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Burt Rutan did not get locked into a world of conforming to what is accepted as standard. Either did Homer Kolb.
I still read the Kolb List even though my FS has a new owner.
Fly safe all,
Jim
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| Description: |
| My Brake Set Up. Worked fine. |
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_________________
Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Former Firestar II Builder/Pilot |
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:13 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ??? |
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At 04:32 PM 10/2/2009, JetPilot wrote:
| Quote: | ...Just because something may have been used 60 years ago or even on a
very few odd planes, it still does not change the fact that heel brakes,
levers, strings, or what every crazy design some people have come up with
are a substandard shortcut...
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Just because YOU don't like something, Mike, doesn't make it
substandard. The vast majority of all production planes today have
nosewheels. closed cockpits, and wheel controls. That doesn't mean that
tailwheels, open cockpits, and control sticks are "substandard". It's a
matter of preference... and sometimes simplicity is better.
-Dana (who PREFERS taildraggers with open cockpits, control sticks, and
heel brakes)
--
To Be Old And Wise You Must First Be Young And Stupid
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zeprep251(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:40 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ??? |
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Jim,
Are you grounded or flying another brand?
G.Aman
--
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zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:40 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ??? |
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Dana,
I heard it said" that with age comes wisdom,but sometimes age comes alone".My greatest fear.
G.Aman
--
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:40 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ??? |
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> There will alway be a few that say " it works for me " and accept
anything, as we have seen on past discussions of Fuel Filters, and other
things. When possible I believe in making my Kolb to accepted Aircraft
standards, It's not always possible but I do it where I can, and toe brakes
is one that can be easily done on the MK III. Smaller ultralights and the
Firefly may be more difficult, each person will have to decide for
themselves.
Damn, Mike B/Gang:
You're making me feel bad. 
I have heel brakes, been using the same fuel filter housing since 1984,
don't have VG's stuck on my airplane, but I still have my hair and bad
breath. I can assure you I do not accept just anything, even though it
works for me. My Kolb is already at accepted aircraft standards. Got a
certificate that indicates that.
I don't care for toe brakes. Flew them in the CH-54, Flying Crane (only
aircraft I ever flew with wheels, until I flew my Ultrastar without brakes);
C-152, and the MKIIIx. They work ok for me, but I like my little bitty heel
brakes.
I also like differential braking. Gives me a lot more capability. I don't
care for brake handles on control sticks or other places around the cockpit.
My left hand is busy with throttle and my right with the control stick. I
can operate my brakes with my heels and the rudder pedals with my toes.
When I fly my airplane, I fly with shoes or boots with small heels. This
accomodates and simplifies the braking operation.
Sitting here in Wendover, UT, overlooking Wendover Air Base, a very
historical piece of real estate in American history. Get a chance, do a
google search on the old WWII air base.
john h
Wendover, UT
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Heel brakes or ??? |
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| John Hauck wrote: |
Damn, Mike B/Gang:
You're making me feel bad.
I have heel brakes, been using the same fuel filter housing since 1984,
don't have VG's stuck on my airplane, but I still have my hair and bad
breath. I can assure you I do not accept just anything, even though it
works for me. My Kolb is already at accepted aircraft standards. Got a
certificate that indicates that.
I don't care for toe brakes. Flew them in the CH-54, Flying Crane (only
aircraft I ever flew with wheels, until I flew my Ultrastar without brakes);
C-152, and the MKIIIx. They work ok for me, but I like my little bitty heel brakes.
I also like differential braking. Gives me a lot more capability. I don't
care for brake handles on control sticks or other places around the cockpit.
My left hand is busy with throttle and my right with the control stick. I
can operate my brakes with my heels and the rudder pedals with my toes.
john h
Wendover, UT |
I don't like toe brakes either. And quite frankly, I love having the brakes where I can lean on them with my throttle/left hand. Because the only time I need to use both throttle and brakes at the same time is when I'm taxiing and trying to get turned on a dime. And since I got a bad knee and arthritis in one foot, it makes life a lot easier.
On the other hand, starting next month I will begin the rebuild on the FSII, and I did not like the heel brakes set up according to how the factory did it. Since this is a total rebuild, there are lots of options, including heel brakes that are user friendly. So - do you have any pictures of your heel brakes setup, especially any from the underside with the skin or the nose bowl off? Maybe you got something I can copy.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Heel brakes or ??? |
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| Jim ODay wrote: | Burt Rutan did not get locked into a world of conforming to what is accepted as standard. Either did Homer Kolb.
I still read the Kolb List even though my FS has a new owner.
Fly safe all,
Jim |
Jim,
That is a really nice workmanship on your firestar pedals.
As far as Burt Rutan, I would be willing to bet his recent airplanes have toe brakes and a standard set of controls as possible. There is a difference between trying to to do something better, or more efficiently, and taking shortcuts that result in non standard unfriendly controls. Burt Rutans work speaks for itself, he is all about advancing aviation and making things better, not taking shortcuts. Funny that a forum that rejects the aerodynamic facts of properly designed wingtips, and until very recently VG's, would quote Burt Rutan. Most people on this forum have been on the wrong side of what Burt Rutan is all about...
Standardized flight controls is something that has been accepted by the entire aviation world, the fact that you guys are arguing against this just shows that have little interest in discussing aviation subjects, and more interest in discrediting and disagreeing with any point made by me. No wonder the Kolb list has been so quiet lately, its become an unfriendly place that values personal politics over good advice and facts.
Mike
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_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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Jimmy Young
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 182
Location: Missouri City, TX
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Heel brakes or ??? |
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I've got heel brakes, work great, like them just fine.
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Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700 |
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russkinne(at)mac.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ??? |
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Good one Gary!Glad there are Kolb s -- this is now Kolb-related
Russ
On Oct 2, 2009, at 6:37 PM, zeprep251(at)aol.com (zeprep251(at)aol.com) wrote:
[quote] Dana,
I heard it said" that with age comes wisdom,but sometimes age comes alone".My greatest fear.
G.Aman
--
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capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:24 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ??? |
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I flew my KXP out of a very active airfleld for 10 years with a little forethought and NO BRAKES My advice , if its worth anything is go with OldPoops 2 hand actuated brake handles and use some forethought, act like you are running a 50 foot 40 ton boat ,which has no brakes and carry on with grace! Chris
Chris Davis
KXP 503 492 hrs
Glider Pilot
Disabled from crash building Firefly
From: George Alexander <gtalexander(at)att.net>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, October 2, 2009 2:06:17 PM
Subject: Re: Heel brakes or ???
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "George Alexander" <gtalexander(at)att.net (gtalexander(at)att.net)>
JetPilot wrote:
| Quote: | .............my Kolb has standard controls just like every other plane in the world.
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Maybe most..... certainly many, but hardly "every other plane in the world."
JetPilot wrote:
| Quote: | .............Heel brakes and hand levers can work, but its a design shortcut and substandard.
Mike
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But may be a necessity. I know the original question related to MKIII's, but those of us Kolb flyers with smaller nose cones (e.g. Firestars, Fireflys and some Ultrastars), and who have big feet, generally don't have much choice . Operating the rudder pedals with size 14 shoes in that small space is sometimes enough of a challenge. A design to incorporate toe brakes would be more of an accomodation than I think would be worth it in my case. Work hard to avoid situations where brakes are critical. Can't always do that, but as some would say... "you pays your money and takes your chances".
As Beauford says..... worth what you paid fer it.
--------
George Alexander
FS II R503 N709FS
http://gtalexander.home.att.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.combsp; -Matt Dralle, List ==========
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:52 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ??? |
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So - do you have any pictures of your heel brakes setup, especially any
from the underside with the skin or the nose bowl off? Maybe you got
something I can copy.
Rev/Gang:
I probably have some pics of the brakes at home.
I built them per Kolb MKIII plans on the right side of the cockpit.
Used MATCO horizontal master cylinders and a loop of 1/4 clear plastic fuel
line for the reservoir. Drilled a couple 1/8" holes in the top of the loop
which is attached to the tube the rudder pedal springs are attached to.
Works great.
john h
Wendover, UT
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:02 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ??? |
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> Standardized flight controls is something that has been accepted by the
entire aviation world, the fact that you guys are arguing against this just
shows that have little interest in discussing aviation subjects, and more
interest in discrediting and disagreeing with any point made by me. No
wonder the Kolb list has been so quiet lately, its become an unfriendly
place that values personal politics over good advice and facts.
Mike B/Gang:
Most of us Kolbers that have been around for a while, that are really into
Kolb aircraft, aren't a whole lot interested in "standardized flight
controls" and what "has been accepted by the entire aviation world."
What I have works and works well. Where my little mkIII has flown speaks
for itself.
Every member of the List has the right to agree or disagree with anyone else
on this List. The Kolb List was not an unfriendly List before you got here
and it is not an unfriendly List now. Some of the members may be, but the
List, as a whole, is not.
Getting ready to cross the street to the Rainbow Casino and attempt to
devour all the King Crab Legs I can at the Sea Food Buffet.
john h
mkIII
Wendover, UT
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:25 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ??? |
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John , every time my fingers get raised to make a reactionary coment , you reply with that great , mellow attitude and say what I was going to say but , the way "it should be said" thank you for your input, with respect ! Chris
Chris Davis
KXP 503 492 hrs
Glider Pilot
Disabled from crash building Firefly
From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, October 2, 2009 9:58:28 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Heel brakes or ???
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>
| Quote: | Standardized flight controls is something that has been accepted by the entire aviation world, the fact that you guys are arguing against this just shows that have little interest in discussing aviation subjects, and more interest in discrediting and disagreeing with any point made by me. No wonder the Kolb list has been so quiet lately, its become an unfriendly place that values personal politics over good advice and facts.
Mike
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Mike B/Gang:
Most of us Kolbers that have been around for a while, that are really into Kolb aircraft, aren't a whole lot interested in "standardized flight controls" and what "has been accepted by the entire aviation world."
What I have works and works well. Where my little mkIII has flown speaks for itself.
Every member of the List has the right to agree or disagree with anyone else on this List. The Kolb List was not an unfriendly List before you got here and it is not an unfriendly List now. Some of the members may be, but the List, as a whole, is not.
Getting ready to cross the street to the Rainbow Casino and attempt to devour all the King Crab Legs I can at the Sea Food Buffet.
john h
mkIII
[quote][b]
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dalewhelan
Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Heel brakes or ??? |
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Would it be more standard if I replaced my fabric with aluminum or should I go for carbon fiber?
I think I need a Continental as well, not sure the 912 is really standard aircraft stuff
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_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept |
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aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:10 pm Post subject: Heel brakes or ??? |
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I will go along with that.If it wasnt for that line of thought we would all
be flying the same type and colour airoplane , driving the same make and
colour car ,living in the same shape house in the location someone thought
we should be ,now how much fun would that be ?
Innovation is where progress comes from, innovation is people being
individuals, innovation is daring to be different , without this we would
all be sitting on the ground looking skywards thinking "woulnd mind being up
there" We are where we are because people like Homer did not accept best
practice and dared to be innovative , the rest is history .
Downunder
New Zealand { home of Richard Pearse} who left the ground in powered fight
in March 1903.Had some control problems.
MK111c
Heal brakes . Work well . Land on grass and take off on grass 99% of the
time
---
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