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MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
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 Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:14 am Post subject: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? |
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Dave, I'm getting ready to re-search the list for seal information so I
can finish off my doors. I know you've mentioned your preference for
foam seals over the Van's bulb type. I know others have used other bulb
type seals.
What do you think the trade-offs are for the foam seal? Does it work
well relative to rain?
What exactly did you use?
Thanks
Bill "trying to figure out what to do next and hoping it doesn't involve
sanding fiberglass" Watson
Dave Saylor wrote:
| Quote: | John,
Thanks so much for your account of the episode. I was starting to get
a little bored with my routine: I push on the back of each door just
before take-off. Now I know I'll stick with that checklist item for good.
What type of door seal do you have? I wrote a few days ago that I
think the Van's bulb seal does a disservice to being able to
effectively close the door. I have foam seals that IMO work much better.
Another point is that if the pins are installed per the plans, the
bevels get installed with the long edge outboard. Presumably, that
ensures more engagement with the fuselage uprights since the long edge
of the pin is outboard, contacting metal. But that arrangement also
helps the pins miss the hole unless the door is pulled all the way in
during latching. When I re-rigged my doors I turned the bevel around
to face "angled edge out", so that the pins would be more likely to
engage. The bevel then helps pull the door in, even if the door isn't
quite closed. Since I also installed metal guide blocks at the same
time, I was sure I was getting a good, solid, metal-on-metal pin
engagement.
You did a great job Flying The Plane. Even the other -10 that had the
tail strike seemed to land well enough. We should take away from this
that a lost door clearly doesn't have to result in an accident if we
remember to fly the plane.
******Shameless plug warning******
Insurance pays (AirCrafters) well for door repairs, too, in case you
don't want to do it yourself--I never do MY own surgery 
Best Regards,
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
*
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kearney
Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:24 am Post subject: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? |
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Bill
Many builders have used the McMaster Carr edge grip seals (see
http://www.mcmaster.com/#1120a732/=3wg8ba (type 3 seals). I bought lots so I
could use some as "sacrificial seals" while I was doing the initial fit of
my doors. That way I could ensure that the doors didn't become more
difficult to close after the seals were installed. Apparently the door
geometry can change after seals are installed so it is best to fit the doors
with them. Whatever seals you plan on using, I recommend that be on the
doors when fitting.
Using the above seals will require f/g work - Oh Joy!
Cheers
Les
#409643 - Living in f/g hell
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jchang10
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 227
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:11 am Post subject: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? |
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Les, what has your experience been so far with the edge seals? I guess I
should order some of it to test myself. It seems like I can forsee a few
fitting issues.
The edge of my fiberglass door frames seem to vary from 1/8" up to 1/4".
The lower parts of the door frame are thinner and the upper parts, esp.
around the top forward corner and top aft corners have thicker edges.
Did you have any edge fitting issues?
Which Type 3 seals did you use again? Edge A B and C dimensions?
Thanks!
Jae
40533
Les Kearney wrote:
[quote]
Bill
Many builders have used the McMaster Carr edge grip seals (see
http://www.mcmaster.com/#1120a732/=3wg8ba (type 3 seals). I bought lots so I
could use some as "sacrificial seals" while I was doing the initial fit of
my doors. That way I could ensure that the doors didn't become more
difficult to close after the seals were installed. Apparently the door
geometry can change after seals are installed so it is best to fit the doors
with them. Whatever seals you plan on using, I recommend that be on the
doors when fitting.
Using the above seals will require f/g work - Oh Joy!
Cheers
Les
#409643 - Living in f/g hell
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#40533 RV-10
First flight 10/19/2011
Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011 |
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kearney
Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:10 am Post subject: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? |
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Jae
I used part # 1120A313 - (3/16 grip with a 3/8" bulb).
I used a Dremel with a small drum sander to even up the flanges for the
seals. Some places the f/g was hugely thick and others almost perfect.
I found that it was difficult to get an even line where I had to notch into
the flange due to thickness. After I had fitted the seals, I covered the
seal flange with packing tape, put in place and filled any gaps with
superfill. The result was a clean edge where the notch meets the edge of the
seal.
I hope that is clear, if not I will see if I took any pix.
Although fitting the doors with the seals in place was a lot of work but the
end result is that I have a consistent seal around the doors. Now the doors
open and close without a lot of effort. I can't image doing this, then
fitting seals, and then adjusting again due to the seal changing the
geometry.
Here is the single most important think I did to get the doors to close
easily. I found that the pressure of the seals on the bottom of the door
made closing hard. There is little leverage at the bottom of the door to
compress the seals. To fix, I pushed the bottom of the f/g door frame in
board about 1/8". This reduces the amount of compression on the door seal at
the bottom of the door made closing much, much easier.
I didn't final drill the door opening holes (#19 & #12) until after I
finished fitting the doors. This made adjusting the position of the door
frame very simple. (It easier to fill & move small #30 hole than #19 & # 12
holes).
In a couple of places I moved the door flange by building up the back side
and then removing material from the face.
None of this was hard, it was just time consuming. And I just love f/g dust.
Cheers
Les
#40643 - living in f/g hell
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msausen
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:41 pm Post subject: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? |
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I'll second pretty much everything that Les said as I'm sure would Deems, Rick, etc. It's not a trivial task to switch to the edge seals but, IMHO, the end result is much better than the factory setup. I spent probably an additional 20 hours getting the edge sanded down and built back up in the right spots to get a good fit and I still have some of the extra pressure to overcome as Les describes on the bottom of the door. Without the seals my doors drop into place and lock with no effort. With the seals on, well, I need to work on that.  Once I get my doors back from Abby I'll probably look closer at that again and try and reduce some of the pressure.
One other thing I did was to slice the little barb off from the inside of the seal. This greatly improved the fit on the door frame. For anyone that thinks venturing from the plans method is straight forward, think again. When it's all said and done I probably have at least 130 hours into my doors from beginning to end. These types of mods probably contributed about 40 hours to it.
Michael
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rene(at)felker.com
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? |
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Here is what I used.....I think they work great....I am not that picky
thou...
http://www.rvtraining.com/html/atp/rv10_door_seals.html
Rene'
801-721-6080
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jchang10
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 227
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:32 am Post subject: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? |
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Thanks Les for that description.
I suspected there would be more work involved than just cutting and
slipping on the seal, but there is definitely more work than even I had
hoped. It's not entirely surprising, though, just from looking at my own
door frame and realizing just how little uniformity there is.
Jae
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#40533 RV-10
First flight 10/19/2011
Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011 |
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kearney
Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:57 am Post subject: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? |
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Jae
It is a bit of work. For me, what was time consuming was figuring out what
to do, doing it and then realizing I had to correct something as my
assumptions were wrong. I can't believe doing as per plans would be any
easier.
Moving the door frame inboard was a key factor in making the doors easy to
close. Using white grease on the door mechanism also removed a great deal of
closing resistance when operating the mechanism.
Cheers
Les
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dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:54 pm Post subject: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? |
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Bill,
| Quote: | What do you think the trade-offs are for the foam seal? Does it work well relative to rain?
What exactly did you use?
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I can't recall leaving the plane out in heavy rain for very long, but we've flown through some pretty heavy downpours and done lots of washings. I can't remember seeing any water inside...that feels like I'm overstating, but I certainly don't have any leaks worth trying to fix.
The downside to the foam seals is that they look a little tacky, especially on the bottom edge where I built them out using a couple layers. I think Les may have built out his fuselage edges to come closer to the door, which would improve that area by a ton.
I was looking at the way the doors close yesterday. I could post a video if someone wants it. The doors just come right down to within about an inch of closing, and it just takes a very slight effort to pull in and latch. It's all because of the seal, which since it takes a set, doesn't interfere with the door closing. It's just not part of the equation.
I have the McMaster P/N at work, along with some pictures. I'll send those out on Monday.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
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