Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Parts that dont fit

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith650-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

aussiech650

Joined: 04 Oct 2009
Posts: 25
Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:05 pm Post subject: Parts that dont fit

I am building a CH650 in Australia and have found that my center wing spar is the wrong angle (XL601) and that the front fuselage side skins are also wrong (a mix of XL601 outer dimensions and CH650 pre drilled holes). As it will take some time for replacement parts to arrive down under, I would be interested to hear from anyone that is further along with the build (either CH650 or late XL601) that may be able to advise of other parts that are not correct so that I may have them all sent to me in one shipment. I believe that there may be an issue with the seat bottom? and maybe the top skin?  

   

   

   

Regards,  

   

   

Greg Cox  

Zenith Zodiac CH650, VH-ZDC  

Sydney, Australia (Cecil Hills)  

Email - greg(at)gas-n-go.com.au  

Mobile - 0430002333  

Fax - (02) 9823 9977  

   

       [quote][b]

alsmith

Joined: 04 Oct 2009
Posts: 12

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:37 am Post subject: Re: Parts that dont fit

We are also building a 650. We had to add a 1/8" Shim to the bottom front of the Center spar to move it 5 degrees. The side skins were also incorrect. The seat and arm rest and the rear spare supports were also  bent incorrectly.  Zenith will send new parts, I suggest that you get undrilled side skins to insure the alignment and fit is correct. We have also informed Zenith that not having any Builders instructions for the 650 is making it much more challenging a project. To our knowledge there are zero available for the 650 modifications.

We have been informed that they are making these a priority to publish.



Al Smith

KEOS

Fuselage 650

z601a(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:28 am Post subject: Parts that dont fit

On Monday 05 October 2009 07:37, alsmith wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 We are also building a 650. We had to add a 1/8" Shim to the bottom front

 of the Center spar to move it 5 degrees. The side skins were also

 incorrect. The seat and arm rest and the rear spare supports were also 

 bent incorrectly.  Zenith will send new parts, I suggest that you get

 undrilled side skins to insure the alignment and fit is correct. We have

 also informed Zenith that not having any Builders instructions for the 650

 is making it much more challenging a project. To our knowledge there are

 zero available for the 650 modifications. We have been informed that they

 are making these a priority to publish.


	


There are SOME things available, because they sent me 650 wing tips for the 

601. when I asked for documentation, I was sent the wingtip drawings for the 

650. It sounds as though things may not all that well coordinated.

-- 

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager



     Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

         Do not drink and derive.

=============================================

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:18 am Post subject: Parts that dont fit

To all,

I've called and talked to Roger D at Zenith in Mexico Missouri about my new style Todd's canopy.  I told him trying to use the old instructional information is nothing close to the parts I was looking at.  I am deathly afraid to cut my canopy in half without SOME type of correct information as to how to do it.  He could see my point.  He told me that a DVD was available on www.homebuilthelp.com that shows how to convert an existing 601XL to the new style canopy.  I told him I see how it is if that was the "solution" to my problem - In other words, I buy the kit from them but I also have to buy the instructions from someone else???  Again, he could see my point after I explained it to him.  He promised he was going to send a DVD to me....you might want to call Zenith as I did.

YES, there IS quite a few problems concerning a lack of forthcoming information on the new CH650....and YES, I also had a lot of pre-punched holes that was totally useless to me.  I suggested to Roger or Caleb (I can't remember which) that if they can't get the holes in the correct place to NOT put any holes at all in the side skins.  He DID offer to send me a new set of side skins.  I thanked him for the offer but I was so far along with it at that point, I wasn't going to go through it again.  So if you are having issues with things not lining up correctly, you are NOT alone.

Hope this helped.

Larry Hursh

Edwardsburg, Michigan

Zenith CH650 - N650LM Reserved     

2700cc Corvair Powered  

Crankshaft already ground .010 - .010  Balanced and nitrited at Moldex     

I hope to someday be that person my dog thinks I am.....

--- On Mon, 10/5/09, Jim Belcher <z601a(at)anemicaardvark.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Jim Belcher <z601a(at)anemicaardvark.com>

 Subject: Re: Re: Parts that dont fit

 To: zenith650-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Monday, October 5, 2009, 8:32 AM

 --> Zenith650-List message posted

 by: Jim Belcher <z601a(at)anemicaardvark.com>

 On Monday 05 October 2009 07:37, alsmith wrote:

 > 

 <alan.smith(at)nutreco.com>

 >

 > We are also building a 650. We had to add a 1/8" Shim

 to the bottom front

 > of the Center spar to move it 5 degrees. The side

 skins were also

 > incorrect. The seat and arm rest and the rear spare

 supports were also 

 > bent incorrectly.  Zenith will send new parts, I

 suggest that you get

 > undrilled side skins to insure the alignment and fit

 is correct. We have

 > also informed Zenith that not having any Builders

 instructions for the 650

 > is making it much more challenging a project. To our

 knowledge there are

 > zero available for the 650 modifications. We have been

 informed that they

 > are making these a priority to publish.

 There are SOME things available, because they sent me 650

 wing tips for the 

 601. when I asked for documentation, I was sent the wingtip

 drawings for the 

 650. It sounds as though things may not all that well

 coordinated.

 -- 

 =============================================

                 Do

 not archive.

 =============================================

                 Jim

 B Belcher

     BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

   A&P/IA

      Retired aerospace technical

 manager

      Mathematics and alcohol do not

 mix.

          Do not drink and

 derive.

 =============================================

 Email Forum -

 FAQ,

    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 List Contribution Web Site -

               -Matt

 Dralle, List Admin.

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

z601a(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:25 am Post subject: Parts that dont fit

On Monday 05 October 2009 09:07, Larry Hursh wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 To all,

I get the uncomfortable feeling that the bad publicity some of the XLs 
	


generated has caused Zenith to put the XL/650 project on a back burner. I 

wonder how many of these they have sold in, say, the last year?



There haven't been any new ads for the 650 in Kitplanes for several months. 

Noi ads usually mean no new sales. It would be a bad thing if the model were 

shelved. I'm not convinced, on the strength of the information presented to 

date, that there's really anything wrong with the basic design.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I've called and talked to Roger D at Zenith in Mexico Missouri about my new

 style Todd's canopy.  I told him trying to use the old instructional

 information is nothing close to the parts I was looking at.  I am deathly

 afraid to cut my canopy in half without SOME type of correct information as

 to how to do it.  He could see my point.  He told me that a DVD was

 available on www.homebuilthelp.com that shows how to convert an existing

 601XL to the new style canopy.  I told him I see how it is if that was the

 "solution" to my problem - In other words, I buy the kit from them but I

 also have to buy the instructions from someone else???  Again, he could see

 my point after I explained it to him.  He promised he was going to send a

 DVD to me....you might want to call Zenith as I did.



 YES, there IS quite a few problems concerning a lack of forthcoming

 information on the new CH650....and YES, I also had a lot of pre-punched

 holes that was totally useless to me.  I suggested to Roger or Caleb (I

 can't remember which) that if they can't get the holes in the correct place

 to NOT put any holes at all in the side skins.  He DID offer to send me a

 new set of side skins.  I thanked him for the offer but I was so far along

 with it at that point, I wasn't going to go through it again.  So if you

 are having issues with things not lining up correctly, you are NOT alone.


	


=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager



     Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

         Do not drink and derive.

=============================================

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:07 am Post subject: Parts that dont fit

Jim,

I never said there was any major problems with the "basic design" of the aircraft.  All I was reiterating was the lack of USEFUL information coming out of Zenith - nothing more - nothing less.  If I didn't have confidence in the aircraft, I would be the FIRST to put it up for sale or scrap it out.  I think in Zenith's case, there was so many bad things happening to the older 601's (mostly all bad word of mouth publicity) they was forced into coming out with the newer 650.  The airframe is basically exactly the same, with a few improvements.  I just wished Zenith would have thought through all the ramifications going with this new conversion as soon as they did, NOT having all the information needed to available to the builders.  I call this "Ready! Fire! Aim!".......or P.P.P. 

I do believe you WILL eventually see ads appearing in flying magazines again (after they get all their ducks in a row), but for now, remember they are up to their A$$ in alligators, seemingly forgetting that their original main objective was to the "drain the swamp".

Larry 

--- On Mon, 10/5/09, Jim Belcher <z601a(at)anemicaardvark.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Jim Belcher <z601a(at)anemicaardvark.com>

 Subject: Re: Re: Parts that dont fit

 To: zenith650-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Monday, October 5, 2009, 11:28 AM

 --> Zenith650-List message posted

 by: Jim Belcher <z601a(at)anemicaardvark.com>

 On Monday 05 October 2009 09:07, Larry Hursh wrote:

 > 

 <skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com>

 >

 > To all,

 I get the uncomfortable feeling that the bad publicity some

 of the XLs 

 generated has caused Zenith to put the XL/650 project on a

 back burner. I 

 wonder how many of these they have sold in, say, the last

 year?

 There haven't been any new ads for the 650 in Kitplanes for

 several months. 

 Noi ads usually mean no new sales. It would be a bad thing

 if the model were 

 shelved. I'm not convinced, on the strength of the

 information presented to 

 date, that there's really anything wrong with the basic

 design.

 > I've called and talked to Roger D at Zenith in Mexico

 Missouri about my new

 > style Todd's canopy.  I told him trying to use

 the old instructional

 > information is nothing close to the parts I was

 looking at.  I am deathly

 > afraid to cut my canopy in half without SOME type of

 correct information as

 > to how to do it.  He could see my point.  He

 told me that a DVD was

 > available on www.homebuilthelp.com that shows how to

 convert an existing

 > 601XL to the new style canopy.  I told him I see

 how it is if that was the

 > "solution" to my problem - In other words, I buy the

 kit from them but I

 > also have to buy the instructions from someone

 else???  Again, he could see

 > my point after I explained it to him.  He

 promised he was going to send a

 > DVD to me....you might want to call Zenith as I did.

 >

 > YES, there IS quite a few problems concerning a lack

 of forthcoming

 > information on the new CH650....and YES, I also had a

 lot of pre-punched

 > holes that was totally useless to me.  I

 suggested to Roger or Caleb (I

 > can't remember which) that if they can't get the holes

 in the correct place

 > to NOT put any holes at all in the side skins. 

 He DID offer to send me a

 > new set of side skins.  I thanked him for the

 offer but I was so far along

 > with it at that point, I wasn't going to go through it

 again.  So if you

 > are having issues with things not lining up correctly,

 you are NOT alone.

 =============================================

                 Do

 not archive.

 =============================================

                 Jim

 B Belcher

     BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

   A&P/IA

      Retired aerospace technical

 manager

      Mathematics and alcohol do not

 mix.

          Do not drink and

 derive.

 =============================================

 Email Forum -

 FAQ,

    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 List Contribution Web Site -

               -Matt

 Dralle, List Admin.

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

z601a(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:01 am Post subject: Parts that dont fit

On Monday 05 October 2009 12:00, Larry Hursh wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Jim,



 I never said there was any major problems with the "basic design" of the

 aircraft.  All I was reiterating was the lack of USEFUL information coming

 out of Zenith - nothing more - nothing less.  If I didn't have confidence

 in the aircraft, I would be the FIRST to put it up for sale or scrap it

 out.  I think in Zenith's case, there was so many bad things happening to

 the older 601's (mostly all bad word of mouth publicity) they was forced

 into coming out with the newer 650.  The airframe is basically exactly the

 same, with a few improvements.  I just wished Zenith would have thought

 through all the ramifications going with this new conversion as soon as

 they did, NOT having all the information needed to available to the

 builders.  I call this "Ready! Fire! Aim!".......or P.P.P.


	


Sorry. I did not mean to imply you had suggested this. I do think that there 

may be the impression that there is something wrong with the design amongst 

those less familiar with it. I'm building an XL, and I haven't let the 

various rumors slow me down.



Something I wish they would do is completely revise the documentation for the 

650. It would be nice to see parts built on one drawing, made into 

subassemblies on another drawing, and so on. In other words, a drawing tree. 

Separate parts numbers for left and right hand parts would also be a good 

idea, and perhaps a cross reference by part number that shows every drawing 

where that part number is referenced.



I feel I spend entirely too much time searching between several pages to find 

rivet pitch, etc etc.



-- 

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager



     Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

         Do not drink and derive.

=============================================

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Parts that dont fit

I noticed during the course of building my XL that some of the components that came with my kit were newer than what was reflected in the drawings.  For example, the nose gear is different, as are the upper engine mount brackets.  And certainly the new canopy as well.  



Looking back, we can now recognize that these were components to what we now call the  "650".  I think the XL was just evolving at the time, and Zenith was naturally shipping the latest and greatest stuff to their customers (which is appreciated).  I think the idea to release a "650" was simply a reaction to the negative press about the XL, which gave Zenith the opportunity to pull the XL off the market and come out with something "new and improved".



Very little difference, and most of the 601 documentation still holds for the 650 - the canopy being the notable exception.  



I installed my canopy after watching the HomebuiltHelp DVD, although I did some things differently.  It was a bear, and knowing what I know now I think I would have done the 650 style latch and the one-piece XL canopy if I were to do it over again now.  Water under the bridge at this point.



I am a bit disturbed at the absence of a Zenith 650 demo plane at the fly-ins, and the lack of advertising of the 650.  



All in all, I'm happy with how my project has gone, and with Zenith.  The hard part for me is listening to all the other pilots and "experts" out there who know all about the Zodiac and how "the wings are going to fall off".   It just gets old hearing it all the time.



- Pat

z601a(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:18 pm Post subject: Parts that dont fit

On Monday 05 October 2009 15:04, PatrickW wrote: 

<snip> 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   I am a bit disturbed at the absence of a Zenith 650 demo plane at the 

 fly-ins, and the lack of advertising of the 650. 

 

 All in all, I'm happy with how my project has gone, and with Zenith.  The 

 hard part for me is listening to all the other pilots and "experts" out 

 there who know all about the Zodiac and how "the wings are going to fall 

 off".   It just gets old hearing it all the time. 

 
	


Yup. There were people at this year's IA renewal seminar who I doubt had ever seen an XL or a 650, who were convinced I was slightly out of my mind for building one.  

 

I am probably out of my mind for building an airplane at my age, but not for building an XL. 

--  

============================================= 

                Do not archive. 

============================================= 

                Jim B Belcher 

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science 

                  A&P/IA 

     Retired aerospace technical manager 

 

     Mathematics and alcohol do not mix. 

         Do not drink and derive. 

=============================================  [quote][b]

chuck960

Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 44
Location: PA

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: Parts that dont fit

I think most of the incorrect parts are listed in this forum or the 601 forum but simply every part that is connected in any way to and including the center wing was wrong for my kit.  Zenith has been good about replacing parts and I want to believe that they have most of this fixed by now. At least I know that they have parts that fit. I'm not sure about the center wing.  I didn't push for a new one and ended up with a spacer under the front flange.

In my opinion I deserve instructions from Zenith for every assembly, especially the canopy.  I should not have to rely on after market DVD's.

Chuck

aussiech650

Joined: 04 Oct 2009
Posts: 25
Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: Parts that dont fit

Chuck, I agree 100% on the instructions, I can only hope that by the time I get to do the canopy that they have a photo guide to suit the 650.

Regarding my center spar, even with a piece of extruded angle (I think 0.093") under the front it still comes in about 1/2 a degree under spec. ZAC have told me that this is acceptable and the rivet crush will still be sufficient, I would prefer to not to be sitting right out on the spec. for such a critical component.

chuck960

Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 44
Location: PA

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Parts that dont fit

Greg it's not often that someone agrees with me. It's a bit refreshing.

As to the center wing I have decided to do the LAA mod to the center spar which should beef up the wing to fuse attachment. It will add 1 lb in weight, cost very little and is easy to do because I haven't yet riveted the spar in place.

I'm not close to doing much with the canopy yet aside from fitting up the frame in order to locate the canopy latches.

You might consider Cherrymax rivets for the spar to cabin floor rivets. Just be sure to get the right grip length.

Chuck

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith650-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum