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Control Stick/Flap Switches

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bbradburry(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:12 am Post subject: Control Stick/Flap Switches

I have a flap switch wired thru a couple of relays to raise and lower the

flaps.  The switch is a double pole double throw type.

I just installed an Infinity grip and there is a single throw single pole

switch on the grip that I would like to wire into the system to also control

the flap.  I realize the in order to use either switch, the other switch

will have to be off.

The problem is that I am electron deficient and have no idea of how to wire

this up.  Any help from the list would be greatly appreciated.



Bill B

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:31 am Post subject: Control Stick/Flap Switches

It's a bad idea to put control of any function on a control stick that

if inadvertently activated could jeopardize the safety of the aircraft.



Bruce

www.Glasair.org 



--

bbradburry(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:13 am Post subject: Control Stick/Flap Switches

Hmmm.

It is a bad idea to put such a situation anywhere!

Bill 



--

peterlaurence6(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:13 am Post subject: Control Stick/Flap Switches

My 2 cents--



Keep the stick simple and place the flap switch on the panel.

Peter



On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Bruce Gray <Bruce(at)glasair.org (Bruce(at)glasair.org)> wrote:

 [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)Glasair.org>

 

 It's a bad idea to put control of any function on a control stick that

 if inadvertently activated could jeopardize the safety of the aircraft.

 

 Bruce

 www.Glasair.org

 

 --

jbr79r(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:53 pm Post subject: Control Stick/Flap Switches

I have my flap switch on the throttle  and trim on the stick.  Works great for me

Jim

 

James Robinson

Glasair lll  N79R

Spanish Fork UT  U77

From: Bill Bradburry <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, October 12, 2009 11:02:08 AM

Subject: RE: Control Stick/Flap Switches



 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net (bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net)>



Hmmm.

It is a bad idea to put such a situation anywhere!

Bill 



--

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:44 am Post subject: Re: Control Stick/Flap Switches

A note on control stick switches:



Make sure they are environmentally sealed for the harshest jungle-like conditions encountered under sweaty palms.

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:10 am Post subject: Control Stick/Flap Switches

Absolutely agree with that one Bruce!  A co-policy I have is

that all control moving circuits should have breakers, not

fuses, because you want them pull-able.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD



Bruce Gray wrote:

[quote] 

 

 It's a bad idea to put control of any function on a control stick that

 if inadvertently activated could jeopardize the safety of the aircraft.

 

 Bruce

 www.Glasair.org 

 

 --

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:13 am Post subject: Control Stick/Flap Switches

Tim, I realize that I've followed the same policy in my fuse-centric 

panel.  Or at least I think I have.... So to  compare notes:



I have 4 pull-able/reset-able  breakers in my panel:

- (2) for the 2 B&C alternator controllers for proper operation of the 

crow bar OV protection

- (1) for my flaps with FPS

- (1) for my AP



The rest are all fuses on a 2 bus Z-14



I didn't have a policy per se, but my thinking for the 2 latter fuses was:

- the flap motor could be overpowered by extension at high speeds - so a 

reset-able capability is desirable since it is a control surface

- The pull-able breaker gives me an emergency off switch for the autopilot



I should add that I have the Safety Trim system which has a trim shut 

off and other safety related functions.

Tim Olson wrote:

[quote] 



 Absolutely agree with that one Bruce!  A co-policy I have is

 that all control moving circuits should have breakers, not

 fuses, because you want them pull-able.



 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD



 Bruce Gray wrote:

> 

> <Bruce(at)Glasair.org>

>

> It's a bad idea to put control of any function on a control stick that

> if inadvertently activated could jeopardize the safety of the aircraft.

>

> Bruce

> www.Glasair.org

> --

Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:33 pm Post subject: Control Stick/Flap Switches

Bill,

 If you can do it, Jim's setup is ideal.

 Stan Sutterfield

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  I have    my flap switch on the throttle  and trim on the stick.  Works great    for

me

Jim



James Robinson

Glasair lll  N79R

Spanish    Fork UT  U77 	


 

  

  [quote][b]

Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:33 pm Post subject: Control Stick/Flap Switches

Bill,

 There is nothing wrong with or dangerous about putting your flap switch on  the control stick.  However, one must use due diligence when activating a  switch on the stick when one has more than one switch on the stick.  For  example, I have flap switch, trim switch and starter switch all on the top of my  stick.  I also have PTT, AP disconnect and smoke on the stick.   However, I've flown fighters for years and I'm comfortable with HOTAS.  It  would be easy to accidentally activate the flaps when reaching for the trim (I  disable my starter button with a switch when flying).  If the flaps are  accidentally started down, you simply switch them back up immediately.

 So, while it is not dangerous to have flaps (or any other switch) on the  stick, it might be prudent to put it on the panel or near the throttle if  you are a private pilot who trained in aircraft that used a panel mounted flap  switch.  If you prefer to have switches on the stick, then wire it that  way.

 I would tell you how I wired mine, but mine is unique and may not fit your  needs.  Is there another builder nearby that can help?

 If you can't find help, contact me directly (off the forum) and I'll  talk you through my installation.

 Stan Sutterfield

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  My 2    cents--

Keep the stick simple and place the flap switch on the    panel.



Peter



On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Bruce Gray    <Bruce(at)glasair.org> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 It's a bad idea to put    control of any function on a control stick that

 if inadvertently    activated could jeopardize the safety of the aircraft.



    Bruce

 www.Glasair.org



 -----Original    Message-----

 From:    owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com

    [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of    Bill

 Bradburry

 Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 1:02 PM

    To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: AeroElectric-List:    Control Stick/Flap Switches



    <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>



  I have a flap switch    wired thru a couple of relays to raise and lower

 the

    flaps.  The switch is a double pole double throw type.

 I just    installed an Infinity grip and there is a single throw single

    pole

 switch on the grip that I would like to wire into the system to    also

 control

 the flap.  I realize the in order to use    either switch, the other switch

 will have to be off.

 The    problem is that I am electron deficient and have no idea of how to

    wire

 this up.  Any help from the list would be greatly    appreciated.



 Bill B 	


 
	


  

  [quote][b]

trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:25 am Post subject: Control Stick/Flap Switches

You can put a flap switch on the control stick and install an airspeed relay like this   

   

http://www.aircraftextras.com/RelaySpeedCont1.htm  

   

which will give you accidental flap deployment protection.  

I know that this is not the KIS way, but it is a way.  

   

I’m not related to “aircraft extras”, just an happy customer (although didn’t test it in flight yet)  

   

Carlos  

   

           

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11(at)aol.com

 Sent: quarta-feira, 14 de Outubro de 2009 1:45

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Control Stick/Flap Switches  

  

       

Bill,  

    

There is nothing wrong with or dangerous about putting your flap switch on the control stick.  However, one must use due diligence when activating a switch on the stick when one has more than one switch on the stick.  For example, I have flap switch, trim switch and starter switch all on the top of my stick.  I also have PTT, AP disconnect and smoke on the stick.  However, I've flown fighters for years and I'm comfortable with HOTAS.  It would be easy to accidentally activate the flaps when reaching for the trim (I disable my starter button with a switch when flying).  If the flaps are accidentally started down, you simply switch them back up immediately.  

    

So, while it is not dangerous to have flaps (or any other switch) on the stick, it might be prudent to put it on the panel or near the throttle if you are a private pilot who trained in aircraft that used a panel mounted flap switch.  If you prefer to have switches on the stick, then wire it that way.  

    

I would tell you how I wired mine, but mine is unique and may not fit your needs.  Is there another builder nearby that can help?  

    

If you can't find help, contact me directly (off the forum) and I'll talk you through my installation.  

    

Stan Sutterfield  

    

   

  [quote]  

My 2 cents--

 Keep the stick simple and place the flap switch on the panel.

 

 Peter

 

 On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Bruce Gray <Bruce(at)glasair.org> wrote:

 

 

    [b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:56 am Post subject: Control Stick/Flap Switches

At 06:22 AM 10/14/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   You can put a flap switch on the control stick and install an airspeed relay like this 

  

  http://www.aircraftextras.com/RelaySpeedCont1.htm

  

 which will give you accidental flap deployment protection.

 I know that this is not the KIS way, but it is a way.

  

 I’m not related to “aircraft extras”, just an happy customer (although didn’t test it in flight yet) 	


   Interesting. I would caution folks about urges

   to add "bells and whistles" to their projects

   "just because we can". The FARS began speaking to

   the style, location and operation of flap and

   landing gear handles very early on. Years of

   experience with mis-operation of the simplest

   of control systems drove the heavy duty thinkers

   to advise (if not demand) standards that go

   directly to reduction of accident due to error

   (human factors) and/or failure (equipment

   lacking robustness), or failure tolerance

   (UN-elegant design).



   The product cited in the link above is an interesting

   discussion point. Diaphragm switches for low delta-

   pressure (IAS sensors) are not very robust. Hardly

   a device I could get qualified onto a TC aircraft

   for the goal of "increased safety" . . .



 [img]cid:.0[/img]



   The relay board in the picture uses "mash-em" 

   terminal strips not unlike those used in other

   products offered to the OBAM aviation community

    . . .



 [img]cid:.1[/img]



   again . . . another technology that I would not even attempt

   to qualify onto a TC aircraft. No gas tightness of electrical

   connections, no support of wires adjacent to the stress-riser

   at the connections.



   I can only counsel caution when the siren call of "change"

   is strong. It's prudent to understand the foundations

   upon which the "status quo" exists. The elegant design

   philosophy calls for lowest practical count of robust

   parts and processes combined with an accommodation of

   human frailties. What's the return on investment for replacing

   simple, traditional flap and gear controls with new

   whiz-bangs? Especially whiz-bangs that intended to make

   add "convenience" to a 2-second action that happens 4x per

   flight cycle? How does the proposed change improve or

   degrade overall system reliability? What do the new whiz-

   bangs offer in terms of risk for unintended operations?

   Twice the parts count says you're twice as likely to

   experience a failure-to-operate event.



   May I further suggest that products like those illustrated

   above do not move the state of our art in the right

   direction? 



 

        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

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jbr79r(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:47 am Post subject: Control Stick/Flap Switches

Thanks Stan

It has worked great for 4 yrs.  I also have the flip flop radio, auto pilot disconnect, IDENT. and strobes on the stick buttons.

I have been happy with this arrangement.

Jim 

 

James Robinson

Glasair lll  N79R

Spanish Fork UT  U77

From: "Speedy11(at)aol.com" <Speedy11(at)aol.com>

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 5:47:44 PM

Subject: Re: Control Stick/Flap Switches



       Bill,

 If you can do it, Jim's setup is ideal.

 Stan Sutterfield

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  I have    my flap switch on the throttle  and trim on the stick.  Works great    for

me

Jim



James Robinson

Glasair lll  N79R

Spanish    Fork UT  U77 	


 

  

  [quote]

[b]

jbr79r(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:50 am Post subject: Control Stick/Flap Switches

In my last reply I failed to mention a few things.  Normally the throttle is full forward from takeoff to nearing approach.  The switch has to be pressed up or down.  Very difficult to inadvertently activate and if activated with the gear up the gear warning horn would sound.  If it failed it would not be a safety of flight concern.  No other electrical clutter needs be installed.  I find this no more complex or failure prone than a switch on the panel

 

James Robinson

Glasair lll  N79R

Spanish Fork UT  U77

From: "Speedy11(at)aol.com" <Speedy11(at)aol.com>

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 5:47:44 PM

Subject: Re: Control Stick/Flap Switches



       Bill,

 If you can do it, Jim's setup is ideal.

 Stan Sutterfield

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  I have    my flap switch on the throttle  and trim on the stick.  Works great    for

me

Jim



James Robinson

Glasair lll  N79R

Spanish    Fork UT  U77 	


 

  

  [quote]

[b]

Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:44 pm Post subject: Control Stick/Flap Switches

A good point, Carlos.  I'd forgotten about that option.

 Stan Sutterfield

 Do not archive

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  You can    put a flap switch on the control stick and install an airspeed relay

like    this  

http://www.aircraftextras.com/RelaySpeedCont1.htm 	


 

  

  [quote][b]

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