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YAK 18T Battery

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tigeryak18t

Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 233
Location: PARIS FRANCE

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:07 pm Post subject: YAK 18T Battery

G'day to all,



can anyone tell me what are the characteristics of the original russian battery. Mine has been exhausted yesterday because I've forgot to turn off the cockpit light and now I have to charge the battery but I don't know what s the capacity and type.



Sorry if this subject has already been discussed.



Thanks and kind regards



Didier HA-JAC in Paris France

_________________
Didier Tiger YAK18T
Member of Commemorative Air Force
French Wing

tigeryak18t

Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 233
Location: PARIS FRANCE

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: YAK 18T Battery

By the way, shall we fill the small cells (two blocks of ten cells) with non mineral water like in the old time???

Or acid????



Thanks



Didier

_________________
Didier Tiger YAK18T
Member of Commemorative Air Force
French Wing

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:42 pm Post subject: YAK 18T Battery

This is not the answer you are looking for.  Possibly Dennis, or Doug

knows.  Servicing instructions are surely in the maint. card deck.

Sadly they are no where close to me at the moment.  I am not even sure

they are lead-acid batteries.  Something floating around in memory says

they might even be nickel-cadmium types!  



Anyway:



What I am going to offer Didier is that most people .... No.  ALL people

that I know have taken those batteries OUT, and have replaced them with

GELL CELL types.  I have even done that on my UTVA-66.  The aircraft

charging voltage is not quite perfect I will admit, but they last a long

long time and work extremely well.  They also don't require any

servicing.  Typically two 12 VDC batteries are used in series with some

kind of custom made case adapter to get them to fit right in existing

spaces.  B&C sells them for the YAK and Sukhoi 50, SU-26,29,31 types...

But those are extremely small and light weight, (and very low

capacity)......  Designed for aerobatics I might add where every extra

pound is avoided!  I use two very LARGE ones on the UTVA-66 (electric

starter).  You can pretty much design any capacity you want to have,

limited only by "space" in the aircraft.  



Lastly, take a real hard look at this:

http://www.batteryminders.com/batterycharger/catalog/BatteryMINDer-Aviat

ion-Specific-Gill-LT-Series-24-Volt-4A--p-16169.html



Made by BatteryMinder, and I have nothing to do with these people and

rarely recommend any product.  That said, this thing is the cat's ass.

It works.  It works well.  And at New Bern, there are over 25 of them

running all the time, they're EVERYWHERE, and every single owner loves

them to death.  



Mark Bitterlich

--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:03 pm Post subject: YAK 18T Battery

Didier, 



The more I think about it, the more I am starting to think that what you

might indeed have here is a multi-cell ni-cad battery.  What makes me

think that is the comment about the "two blocks of 10 cells".   That

would mean that you have a 24 volt battery with 20 cells.  Divide 24 by

20 and you get 1.2   That is the EXACT typical voltage for a single

NI-CAD cell.   Nickel-cadmium batteries have a cadmium anode, nickel

oxyhydroxide cathode, and an electrolyte of an aqueous solution of

potassium hydroxide. They run slightly less voltage per cell than do

lead-acid type batteries.  



Please be certain of what you are dealing with, and what exact kind of

battery you have before servicing or charging it.  Certain very violent

and dangerous reactions can occur if any battery is serviced with the

wrong fluids, or charged in the wrong fashion, and this is most

certainly true with ni-cads. With a NI-CAD, you MUST have certain

current limitations when charging, or it can go into a thermal run-a-way

and blow up.  As in KA-BOOM.  Also once they start a thermal run-a-way,

you simply can not stop them by removing charging current.  It's a

really bad thing.  A really REALLY bad thing.   



So until some one who really knows answers this question, and I simply

do not know for sure myself... Please be careful OK?  



Best Regards, 



Mark

  



--

tigeryak18t

Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 233
Location: PARIS FRANCE

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:09 pm Post subject: YAK 18T Battery

Hum hum

The good thing is that nothing wrong happened up to today. I did a  

charge of the battery on 24v and about 3 to7 amps for about 3 hours  

ans listening to  the bubbles I removed it.



Thanks to your warnings Mark



I agree with you Mark about the NiCad voltage. Now I will wait to know  

more if anyone knows about it.



Richard or Dennis if you have any info even just the type it's fine.



Thanks a lot Mark, you saved my baterry (I hope) and perhaps more.



Kind regards



Didier Blouzard

06 24 24 36 72



Le 14 oct. 2009 Ã  01:53, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,  

MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> a Ã©crit :



 	  Quote:

_________________
Didier Tiger YAK18T
Member of Commemorative Air Force
French Wing

nc69666(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:39 pm Post subject: YAK 18T Battery

Didier,  If you are on an airport or near one where there are corperate Jets or Turbo Prop Acft. contact their maintenance people, those airplanes all use Nicad batteries. Their mainrenance people will have the expertise and equipment to maintain Nicad batteries. They will probably be able to identify type of battery you have. 

    

   Gary  in Las Vegas

    

   

 

 --

michael(at)wikstrom.cc
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:52 pm Post subject: YAK 18T Battery

Didier,



This is what I have in my 18T,

2 x YUASA NP17-12, sealed Lead-Acid battery, 12V 17Ah

    Dim 75x181x167 mm

    Price is â‚¬ 68 each (Radispares order code: 200-6505)



The charger I use is,

1 x Mascot 9740, 24V/5A charger

    Price is â‚¬ 198  (Radiospares order code: 366-3856)

Phone number to Radiospares in France is:0825 034 034



Cheers

Michael



    

	



--

tigeryak18t

Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 233
Location: PARIS FRANCE

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:56 am Post subject: YAK 18T Battery

Gary

This is a good advice I'll follow to try to save my battery.

Thx a lot



Didier Blouzard06 24 24 36 72

Le 14 oct. 2009 Ã  08:31, nc69666(at)aol.com (nc69666(at)aol.com) a Ã©crit :



[quote] Didier,  If you are on an airport or near one where there are corperate Jets or Turbo Prop Acft. contact their maintenance people, those airplanes all use Nicad batteries. Their mainrenance people will have the expertise and equipment to maintain Nicad batteries. They will probably be able to identify type of battery you have. 

    

   Gary  in Las Vegas

    

   

 

 --

_________________
Didier Tiger YAK18T
Member of Commemorative Air Force
French Wing

tigeryak18t

Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 233
Location: PARIS FRANCE

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:56 am Post subject: YAK 18T Battery

Michael

Thanks so much.

Your help is precious.

I'll order the batteries asap to radiospares.



Thanks and fly safe.



Btw we are waiting for you in Paris when you want....



See you probably next summer in Cannes.



Regards



Didier Blouzard

06 24 24 36 72



Le 14 oct. 2009 Ã  08:50, "Michael Wikstrom" <michael(at)wikstrom.cc> a  

Ã©crit :



[quote] 

 >



 Didier,



 This is what I have in my 18T,

 2 x YUASA NP17-12, sealed Lead-Acid battery, 12V 17Ah

    Dim 75x181x167 mm

    Price is â‚¬ 68 each (Radispares order code: 200-6505)



 The charger I use is,

 1 x Mascot 9740, 24V/5A charger

    Price is â‚¬ 198  (Radiospares order code: 366-3856)

 Phone number to Radiospares in France is:0825 034 034



 Cheers

 Michael





 --

_________________
Didier Tiger YAK18T
Member of Commemorative Air Force
French Wing

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:45 am Post subject: YAK 18T Battery

"2 x YUASA NP17-12, sealed Lead-Acid battery, 12V 17Ah"



Good choice.



Mark Bitterlich

--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:16 am Post subject: YAK 18T Battery

The LONG answer. 



Didier, I want to repeat that I am not sure what the original battery is.  I only saw one once in my life as it was being removed to replace it with a sealed lead acid type.  I looked at it briefly and was startled because it looked exactly like the Ni-Cads I used to work with on the A-6 model aircraft back in the day.  Same exact type of construction.  I said to myself: "DARN, THAT LOOKS LIKE A NI-CAD!" and went no further than that.  So you can see that my analysis is based on anything BUT an accurate study! BUT....Based on the number of cells you mentioned, I think it is more than possible, and maybe even LIKELY.  I just don't know for sure.  



My caution about charging:  I do not want to imply that if you put on the wrong type of charger on a NI-CAD that it will immediately go into thermal run-a-way and explode in your face.  The smaller the battery, the easier it is for this to happen with an unregulated charger.  In your case you have a pretty big battery, so this kind of thing is not going to happen as in "POOF" .... BANG!  It will take TIME. 



The way it works is like this.  As you charge a ni-cad it starts to get warm.  As it warms up, the internal resistance goes down.  As the internal resistance goes down, more current flows from the charger, so the battery warms up some more, and the resistance goes down some more, drawing more current, and it gets warmer still... And so forth and so on, until suddenly it starts getting hot much faster, the current gets MUCH higher, and things suddenly start happening VERY quickly followed by a very powerful explosion where everything flies all over the place.  The number one thing to watch for is heat, and the use of an regulated charger.  



Off the record... As in, I can't officially sanction something like this, but there are ways that are much better than standing around listening for bubbles and breathing noxious fumes.  



A simple ... Extremely simple....current limiter can be made out of a plain old light bulb.  In this case, a 28 VDC light bulb... And if those are not available, two 12 volt bulbs in series.  Lightbulbs are rated in watts.  You need to recompute this to amps.  So, I=P/E where I equals current, P equals watts, and E equals voltage.  So for a 50 watt bulb, you would draw roughly 2 amps. (50/24= well...not being perfectly exact here ok... Just "close enough").   If you connect a 50 watt bulb in SERIES (emphasis on "series" here ok?) with one of the wires going to the battery from the charger, you will limit the charging current to about 2 amps.  PERIOD.  It can  NOT draw more than that.  Now you have taken a regular old battery charger and have converted it into a current LIMITED battery charger, which is what you need for a NI-CAD battery.   If the battery internal resistance goes down, the charger current can NOT go up (beyond 2 amps in this particular case using a 50 watt bulb).  As the battery gets close to full charge, the bulb will get dimmer and dimmer.  



Every Ni-Cad has a recommended charging voltage and a MAXIMUM charging current.  The charging voltage is important to the overall life of the battery, but the charging CURRENT is a matter of safety and your immediately health!  I would also have an infra-red temp sensor handy.  These items are just a MUST have for anyone with a radial engine anyway.  It will find a missing cylinder so fast you would not believe it.  There are other good methods too, but the infra-red temp sensor is in my opinion the best.  It also will allow you to keep a close eye on the battery temperature, which if you see starting to rise quickly will allow you to disconnect EVERYTHING in time.  A good battery shop has a temp sensor on every battery being charged.... Always.  



Personally, I would not have one of those things in my airplane (Ni-Cad main bettery).  But that's just me.  



Mark 

 



--

k7wx(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:44 am Post subject: YAK 18T Battery

Dider,



I'm sure the YAK is different, but for the CJ-6A, four 12-volt gel  

cell batteries fit perfectly into the original battery box, as though  

they were made for this application. Two sets of two are connected in  

parallel and each set of two is then connected on series. This gives  

twice the voltage at twice the current rating of each individual  

battery.



One added advantage is that this arrangement weighs a little more,  

which shifts a typically too forward CG slightly aft. Makes the  

airplane a little easier to fly and land.



Warren Hill

Mesa, AZ



On Oct 13, 2009, at 11:50 PM, Michael Wikstrom wrote:



[quote] 

 >



 Didier,



 This is what I have in my 18T,

 2 x YUASA NP17-12, sealed Lead-Acid battery, 12V 17Ah

    Dim 75x181x167 mm

    Price is € 68 each (Radispares order code: 200-6505)



 The charger I use is,

 1 x Mascot 9740, 24V/5A charger

    Price is € 198  (Radiospares order code: 366-3856)

 Phone number to Radiospares in France is:0825 034 034



 Cheers

 Michael

 	



 --

Rob Rowe

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Berkshire, UK

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: YAK 18T Battery

Didier,



The Yuasa NP 17-12 are excellent batteries but be aware that the manufacturer recommends that they are charged at a MAX current of 25% of their AH capacity for approx 4-5 hours to avoid damaging the cells.



Therefore at 17AH that's about 4A max ... the Mascot 9740 is a 10A charger, so may be better to go for a lower current version (4A = model 2140?)



You may want to consider the NPC 17-12 batteries as well, these are slightly more expensive but may offer a greater lifespan ... they have lasted 8+ years so far in my -52.



FWIW - also try shedding as much load as possible when taxiing as if the generator is off-line then the batteries will be taking all the electrical load. 



When the generator cuts in again the (partially discharged) batteries can get charged at very high rates (10+ amps on a -52) ... note your ammeter reading (x 10) next time and you'll see what I mean. 



Battery condition is a factor here, as is ambient temperature, but it's surprising what a just few minutes taxiing can take out of them.



So I only turn the inverters / strobes / heaters on (the big current users) just before starting the power checks prior to departure and turn them off again on exiting the runway after landing -  as I operate from a grass strip this also saves wear & tear on the gyros being bounced around on the ground. 



Cheers, Rob R

G-YAKX

tigeryak18t

Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 233
Location: PARIS FRANCE

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: YAK 18T Battery

Hello to all,



and thank you very much for all your kind comments and help.

First of all, here is the full story. Now I know how my battery was discharged. I forgot the taxi light on after a test of all the possible light, but I turned off the main battery at the end of my test. This turns off everything BUT NOT the cockpit light. They stay on even if you turn the main bat OFF.

So it discharged the battery in about 24hours.

The day after, with no more battery, I tried to start the motor...no way. a faint click and air but no actuation of the electrovalve. So  nothing happened. I even tried some foolish hand starting (I do it on Cessna) but thanks god I did not turn on the magnetos and the motor could not start. I read the hand start messages well after that and realized how it was stupid and dangerous. 

So I do confirm that it is a NiCad battery. I charged it with an electronic charger, so I could see the current of charge. It was about 2amps. For such a big battery that's also the reason why it did not heat and probably was charged a little. Enough to be put back in its place in the wing and make another test. If it doesn't work then (and even if its working...) I will have these Yuasa batteries and put them back.



Thank you very much again to all and particularly to Mark who explained things very clearly and took a lot of time to understand the problem.

I hope sharing this small experience and mistakes will help others not to do the same.



kind regards from Paris



Didier HA-JAC

_________________
Didier Tiger YAK18T
Member of Commemorative Air Force
French Wing

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: YAK 18T Battery

The reason why some of the air start valves, like on the Yak  52, have the small tab on the side of it is just for situations like  yours.  If the battery is dead the air start valve can not be  engaged.  The tab on the side of the valve solves the problem.   Pushing up on the tab (on the 52 this is done with the side of the sole of the  shoe), engages the air start valve and starts the rotation.  Once the  rotation starts, the mags can be switched on.  I'm not sure the 18T has  this tab on the side and also where it would be reachable to engage the  valve.

 Dennis

 [quote]   ---

michael(at)wikstrom.cc
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:12 am Post subject: YAK 18T Battery

Rob, Didier,

The Mascot 9740 is a 5A charger in it's 24V version.  It's also a three

stage charger which quite quickly drops the 5A

max charge down to the levels needed to charge the battery correctly.

I've had my NP-17-12 batteries since 2004 and never had any

problems...except forgetting cockpit light on etc, like Didier..



Cheers

Michael



--

Rob Rowe

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Berkshire, UK

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:38 am Post subject: Re: YAK 18T Battery

Michel,



Your choice to charge in series at 24V but I prefer to charge each battery individually at 12V to confirm they are in a similar condition ... more hassle but more peace of mind.



The Mascot auto charger uses a constant current output, until the battery's internal resistance rises to a trigger point, before changing to a series of constant voltage modes of operation. 



So the 24V Mascot 9740 at 5A is still initially charging at c.20% more than the Yuasa manufacturer's maximum recommended level ... again your choice.



If it "quickly" drops from 5A then this just highlights the high charge rate being used ... it's not an indicator that the battery charge rate is appropriate.



Anyway it's your money, your batteries, your choice.



Cheers, Rob R

G-YAKX

CBG

Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 2

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:08 am Post subject: Re: YAK 18T Battery

Didier, 



the 2 12v YUASA batteries fit perfectly in the original battery box. I have had them on both my 18Ts and never had any problem.



Weather permitting why don't you and Dominique come over on Sunday. A three ship fly over the D-Day landing beaches in Normandy would look (and sound) nice.



Christophe

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