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Monowheel master cylinder?
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johnwigney(at)windstream.
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:18 am Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

Dear Europaphiles,



There has been quite a lot of discussion lately regarding problems on 

tri-gear brakes. I now have a question on monowheel brakes. 



The problem I have is that as the brake pads wear, the stroke on the 

handle increases and the only way to fix this is to add fluid to the 

cylinder since there is no external reservoir. This procedure is a bit 

clumsy and fluid also has to be removed when new pads are fitted



Has anyone had success with fitting a different system with a reservoir 

which avoids this problem? Any suggestions or comments would be welcome.



Cheers, John



N262WF, mono XS, 912S

Mooresville, North Carolina

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:13 am Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

John,



That is true. It was just today I was thinking the same problem.

I filled the cylinder last spring and now after about 50 hrs flight time /100 landings my brakes are almost gone.

As you well know the situation appears suddenly: day before everything OK but today I cannot keep it there during magneto check. Brake pads are almost new like.



I mentioned this thing to one aircraft service man and he told there are several brake systems (with no reservoir) with screw adjustable lever position - so it is possible to compensate the increasing stroke.



I would love to have it. Adding fluid is not my favourite job.



Raimo OH-XRT 149 hrs

---

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:43 am Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

John & Raimo,



You should be able to find a source for some small industrial syringes.  

They are handy for adding/removing brake fluid to/from the master cylinder

without creating too much mess.



I know that they are available from ACS, McMaster-Carr and Wicks.  

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/comptoolsyringe.php

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/tapertipapplicator.php

http://www.mcmaster.com/#syringes/=425n9t

http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_detail.php/pid=7939~subid=10381/index.html



I would imagine that there is an industrial supplier in your area where they 

can be purchased.  



Bob Borger

 

On Wednesday, October 14, 2009, at 02:16PM, "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> wrote:

[quote]



John,



That is true. It was just today I was thinking the same problem.

I filled the cylinder last spring and now after about 50 hrs flight time /100 landings my brakes are almost gone.

As you well know the situation appears suddenly: day before everything OK but today I cannot keep it there during magneto check. Brake pads are almost new like.



I mentioned this thing to one aircraft service man and he told there are several brake systems (with no reservoir) with screw adjustable lever position - so it is possible to compensate the increasing stroke.



I would love to have it. Adding fluid is not my favourite job.



Raimo OH-XRT 149 hrs

---

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:57 pm Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

If you need large syringes in small numbers go to your nearest helpful

vetenary surgeon.

Regards

Bob Harrison



--

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:03 pm Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

Raimo,

Don't forget the fluid in the system will shrink with the falling

temperatures in your climes, giving an accelerated impression of the brakes

wearing. (likewise be prepared for the brakes binding when the temperatures

get back high in the early summer although I've never heard of anyone

suffering this problem.)

Regards

Bob Harrison Europa Trike G-PTAG



--

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:50 am Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

Bob,



adding brake fluid is actually no problem. It takes let is say 30 minutes and I use vet syringe or just a bottle with hose.

The point is: it is frustrating and ugly task to do regularly again and again.

Cannot understand why there is a design without reservoir.



Would be nice to find a solution where no more brake fluid games every 50 hrs or so.



An idea: would it be possible to add an external aftermarket reservoir to the cylinder´s filling hole?



Raimo OH.-XRT



---

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:59 am Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

Bob,



that (temperature) is probably a significant factor in this game.

On Tuesday temp was around 10C and I had brakes but on Wednesday temp was 0C and brakes were almost gone. An external reservoir should compensate this temperature effect.



Or should we have a temperature controlled heating system in our brakes...

adding more heat would compensate also worn brake pads!  



Raimo OH-XRT

---

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:33 am Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

Raimo,



I tried to add a reservoir to my brake master but there just wasn't enough room 

between the top of the tunnel and the top of the brake master cylinder to get a 

fitting and line.  I had planned to modify the top of the tunnel to add room for 

the necessary hardware.  You would need a 90 degree that would match the 

threads on the master cylinder fill hole with a male 37 degree AN style on the 

other end of the fitting.  A line to go from the fitting, through the firewall to a 

reservoir, probably hanging on the engine side of the firewall.  I gave up when

I couldn't find a 90 degree fitting to match the threads of  the master fill hole.



I'd sure be interested if there was someone out there who has added a 

reservoir to their monowheel master cylinder.



Bob

 

On Thursday, October 15, 2009, at 06:12AM, "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob,



that (temperature) is probably a significant factor in this game.

On Tuesday temp was around 10C and I had brakes but on Wednesday temp was 0C and brakes were almost gone. An external reservoir should compensate this temperature effect.



Or should we have a temperature controlled heating system in our brakes...

adding more heat would compensate also worn brake pads!  



Raimo OH-XRT

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:54 am Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

Bob,



why did you plan to instal reservoir to the firewall?



What about a simple solution to instal it just straight to the fill hole just top of the master cylinder AND and top of the tunnel? It is visible then but so what? We need only a reservoir with one inch connection tube with those threads male 37 degree AN style you mentioned. Do you think it looks awful there? It is visible also in fine MCs also. A practical technic is also beautiful is not it?



Raimo OH-XRT  

---

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:19 am Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

Raimo,



I did not like having the reservoir sitting on the tunnel right there behind the brake lever.  

In part due to appearance.  But, primarily, I could see it interfering with the operation of 

the brake. 



You are right, properly located, it would not detract from the appearance of the cockpit.

(very techie) AND, it would be quite visible for check and accessible for maintenance.



I have an ACS brake reservoir bottle.  All I need is a decent place to put it and a means 

of plumbing it to the master cylinder.



Bob



 

On Thursday, October 15, 2009, at 07:08AM, "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob,



why did you plan to instal reservoir to the firewall?



What about a simple solution to instal it just straight to the fill hole just top of the master cylinder AND and top of the tunnel? It is visible then but so what? We need only a reservoir with one inch connection tube with those threads male 37 degree AN style you mentioned. Do you think it looks awful there? It is visible also in fine MCs also. A practical technic is also beautiful is not it?



Raimo OH-XRT

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:58 am Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

Bob,



next time I visit my plane I will make some location checks for the reservoir tank.

As you assume if located top of the tunnel it may prevent the erconomic use of the brake lever (or not).

Anyway over the tunnel between the seats there is plenty of room for a tiny brake fluid tank.

The hose between the tank and the brake lever cylinder could be a golden eye-catcher itself... 



If I decide to go for reservoir, could you please supply me all the fittings (a means 

 	  Quote: 	
		   of plumbing)? Otherwise I have to consult with lathe man in this country.


	


With reservoirs our planes will be again enhanced to the next practical level. 



Raimo OH-XRT

 

---

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:39 am Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

Raimo,



And I will dig up the reservoir I have to see what type of hardware will be necessary 

to connect it to the filling opening of the brake master cylinder.  I'm sure it will need 

a fitting to be added to the reservoir which will allow connection to a length of hose.

Then there will be another fitting required which would connect to a hose and to the

reservoir.  I see the primary problem being the fitting connecting the hose to the 

master cylinder.  The plug to the master cylinder has straight threads and seals 

against an "O" ring.  We would need a similar arrangement on any fitting.



Also, we must determine if the plug must be installed for the braking action to work.

It seems that in my work with the brake that it is not necessary, but this must be 

confirmed.  As a previous poster has indicated, it may be necessary for a check 

valve to be installed in the line between the reservoir and master cylinder.



Bob



 

On Thursday, October 15, 2009, at 02:11PM, "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> wrote:

[quote]



Bob,



next time I visit my plane I will make some location checks for the reservoir tank.

As you assume if located top of the tunnel it may prevent the erconomic use of the brake lever (or not).

Anyway over the tunnel between the seats there is plenty of room for a tiny brake fluid tank.

The hose between the tank and the brake lever cylinder could be a golden eye-catcher itself... 



If I decide to go for reservoir, could you please supply me all the fittings (a means 

> of plumbing)? Otherwise I have to consult with lathe man in this country.



With reservoirs our planes will be again enhanced to the next practical level. 



Raimo OH-XRT

 

---

Richard Wheelwright

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 111
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

Please don't throw loose articles at me from around your work shop's 

But aren't the Mono Brake cylinders ( Trigear Toe Brakes ) A sealed unit and only work when the top filling plug is installed? 

If this is so, simple pluming a reservoir will not work as it will not take the pressure when the lever is pulled. 

A simple short tube screwed into the master cylinder, then the original plug screwed onto the top to seal the unit. This will allow for extra fluid and allow for the wear down of the pads.

 

I could be wrong!!!

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

_________________
Richard Wheelwright
G-IRPW
First Flight 24th July 2013

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:55 pm Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

Don't forget a 'non-return valve' has to be installed as well.

Tim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street'

Fendalton,

Christchurch.

NEW ZEALAND



Ph. 64 3 3515166

Mob 021  0640221

Email  ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz

---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:52 pm Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

Bob Borger wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Also, we must determine if the plug must be installed for the braking action to work.

 It seems that in my work with the brake that it is not necessary, but this must be 

 confirmed.  As a previous poster has indicated, it may be necessary for a check 

 valve to be installed in the line between the reservoir and master cylinder.



 Bob

   

It will, and it was Jim Naylor wasn't it? Hi Jim say hello to Pam for me.
	


Graham

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:56 pm Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

Fellow Europaphiles,

I have started a new album on my site: "Brake Reservoir Study."  So  

far, there are 4 pics of the ACS brake reservoir with some descriptive  

text.

Next step will be to identify the following elements:

1. Fitting to screw into the bottom of the reservoir to attach a hose.

2. Hose

3. Fitting to screw into the fill-hole of the master cylinder to which  

the other end of the hose will attach.

4. Some sort of check valve to go in the system somewhere to enable  

the brake master to generate the pressure necessary to function rather  

than just squirt brake fluid back into the reservoir.

Any ideas or suggestions are welcome!

Check six,

Bob Borger

Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S

http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL

Aircraft Flying!

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208

Home:  940-497-2123

Cel:  817-992-1117

Graham,

Yes, I believe it was Jim Naylor who made the first comment on the  

necessity of a check valve in the system.

On Oct 15, 2009, at 19:45, Graham Singleton wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 >

 Bob Borger wrote:

> Also, we must determine if the plug must be installed for the  

> braking action to work.

> It seems that in my work with the brake that it is not necessary,  

> but this must be confirmed.  As a previous poster has indicated, it  

> may be necessary for a check valve to be installed in the line  

> between the reservoir and master cylinder.

>

> Bob

>

 It will, and it was Jim Naylor wasn't it? Hi Jim say hello to Pam  

 for me.

 Graham

jim.naylor(at)talktalk.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:07 pm Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

Hi Graham,

Yes it was me crawling out of the woodwork!

Regards

Jim

 	  Quote: 	
		  >

 It will, and it was Jim Naylor wasn't it? Hi Jim say hello to Pam for me.

 Graham



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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:11 am Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

Tim,



I think valve is not necessary if you keep the reservoir always full-filled.

And it is easy to keep it so (much easier like cylinder).

Adding no-return valve is a 2nd level to enhance brake system.(I assume no-return-valve is like diode for electricitet).



Raimo OH-XRT



---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:56 am Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

Raimo Toivio wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Tim,



 I think valve is not necessary if you keep the reservoir always full-filled.

 And it is easy to keep it so (much easier like cylinder).

 Adding no-return valve is a 2nd level to enhance brake system.(I assume no-return-valve is like diode for electricitet).



 Raimo OH-XRT

Raimo,
	


you would need to use a resevoir that can take full brake pressure. You 

would probably burst it if you try hard braking.

Graham

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:56 am Post subject: Monowheel master cylinder?

Raimo,



If the fill opening of the master cylinder is in the pressure side of the cylinder 

and you connect the reservoir directly to it, then when you apply the brake the

pressure will force the fluid in the cylinder back into the reservoir.  Notice that

the reservoir cap is vented.  If the reservoir is full and you apply the brake the 

fluid will be forced out the vent hole and you will only make a mess of the 

area around the reservoir.



I guess you could try plugging the vent and filling the reservoir full in an 

effort to contain the pressure but then you are making the plastic body a 

pressure vessel.  I don't know how long the plastic would accept such 

pressure cycling before it either stripped some set of threads or just cracked.  

And you have a mess around the reservoir.



There will have to be some means of closing the system between the 

reservoir and master cylinder.  It can be a check valve (yes similar to a 

diode in an electrical sense, something similar to the check valves used

in the fuel system to provide bypass of a failed pump) or a manually 

operated valve which would be open to fill the master cylinder and closed 

for brake operation.  This would require a re-write of the aircraft check list to 

confirm close prior to engine start and open after engine shutdown.  More 

complication to the operation.



Bob



On Friday, October 16, 2009, at 05:14AM, "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> wrote:

[quote]



Tim,



I think valve is not necessary if you keep the reservoir always full-filled.

And it is easy to keep it so (much easier like cylinder).

Adding no-return valve is a 2nd level to enhance brake system.(I assume no-return-valve is like diode for electricitet).



Raimo OH-XRT



---

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