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ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject: cold weather starting

Ok guys....I love my A-2200.......but......when the damn thing is cold,what do I have to do to make it run...????  I have an Odyssey,and as long as I keep the engine warm,it starts right up...however...I left it outside for an hour this afternoon so it got a chance to cool off and when I tried to start it back up...no luck..What are you cold weather guys doing???



chris ambrose

M3X Kolb   /  A-2200   ser 1228    74.hrs

N327CS

wypaul

Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 24

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: cold weather starting

Chris,



Take a look at the things Pete has posted on the Jabiru USA site.  I think that  AeroShell 15-50 is a big help if you still have 50 wt oil in it.  I had to jump mine yesterday morning when it was 28 F and I didn't preheat more than 5 minutes.  I still have W100 in mine or it would have started.  I guess it is time to get it change over for winter fun.

_________________
Paul Spackman
Q-2 Jabiru 3300

plus2s

Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 65
Location: NEW ZEALAND

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:29 pm Post subject: cold weather starting

Had a similar problem - changed the idle jet - I think it was a 35 and I put in a 45. Starts better but still needs choke for 4 to 5 mins

  

 Regards

 Keith



--- On Mon, 19/10/09, ces308 <ces308(at)ldaco.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: ces308 <ces308(at)ldaco.com>

Subject: cold weather starting

To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

Received: Monday, 19 October, 2009, 12:08 PM



 --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "ces308" <ces308(at)ldaco.com (ces308(at)ldaco.com)>



Ok guys....I love my A-2200.......but......when the damn thing is cold,what do I have to do to make it run...????  I have an Odyssey,and as long as I keep the engine warm,it starts right up...however...I left it outside for an hour this afternoon so it got a chance to cool off and when I tried to start it back up...no luck..What are you cold weather guys doing???



chris ambrose

M3X Kolb   /  A-2200   ser 1228    74.hrs

N327CS





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268452#26845=          - The JabiruEngine-List Email Forum -nics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.rums.matronics.com/" ;               -Matt Dralle, List Admin==========





	
  [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:31 pm Post subject: cold weather starting

How cold is cold? (Giving your location, and or a temperature at  

which it won't start might help somebody solve the issue) I have an  

Odyssey 680...(what is yours?)...and it starts every time. I've left  

it out for a couple of hours after flying somewhere....temp in the  

10-20 degree F. above zero range...and it starts every time.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 800.0 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs--200 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying

do not archive



On Oct 18, 2009, at 7:08 PM, ces308 wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Ok guys....I love my A-2200.......but......when the damn thing is  

 cold,what do I have to do to make it run...????  I have an  

 Odyssey,and as long as I keep the engine warm,it starts right  

 up...however...I left it outside for an hour this afternoon so it  

 got a chance to cool off and when I tried to start it back up...no  

 luck..What are you cold weather guys doing???



 chris ambrose

 M3X Kolb   /  A-2200   ser 1228    74.hrs

 N327CS





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 68452#268452

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: cold weather starting

Watch this Rotax engine cold starting video about a Tanis engine preheat. I know you don't have a Rotax, but the video will answer all your questions and then some. 

Also close the gap down on your plugs and it will help greatly, but first heat the  engine, but watch the video it is an eye opener.

http://www.rotax-owner.com/reviews/reviews.htm

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

plus2s

Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 65
Location: NEW ZEALAND

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:45 pm Post subject: cold weather starting

Another thing to check is the coil gap to the flywheel and close the plugs up a bit

  

 Regards

 Keith



--- On Mon, 19/10/09, ces308 <ces308(at)ldaco.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: ces308 <ces308(at)ldaco.com>

Subject: cold weather starting

To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

Received: Monday, 19 October, 2009, 12:08 PM



 --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "ces308" <ces308(at)ldaco.com (ces308(at)ldaco.com)>



Ok guys....I love my A-2200.......but......when the damn thing is cold,what do I have to do to make it run...????  I have an Odyssey,and as long as I keep the engine warm,it starts right up...however...I left it outside for an hour this afternoon so it got a chance to cool off and when I tried to start it back up...no luck..What are you cold weather guys doing???



chris ambrose

M3X Kolb   /  A-2200   ser 1228    74.hrs

N327CS





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268452#26845=          - The JabiruEngine-List Email Forum -nics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.rums.matronics.com/" ;               -Matt Dralle, List Admin==========





	
  [quote][b]

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: cold weather starting

Thanks ! I 'll try these things and see if it makes a difference .



chris ambrose

jabfox(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:51 am Post subject: cold weather starting

I was sturbon and did everything replaced my battery w/ a Odyssey C installed a elec fuel pump made carb adjustments C pulled the prop thru. but the cure was to close the coil gap C it was easy and I should have done that first because now it starts when cold. Dave

[quote] Subject: cold weather starting

 From: ces308(at)ldaco.com

 Date: Sun C 18 Oct 2009 16:08:36 -0700

 To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

 --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "ces308" <ces308(at)ldaco.com>

 Ok guys....I love my A-2200.......but......when the damn thing is cold Cwhat do I have to do to make it run...???? I have an Odyssey Cand as long as I keep the engine warm Cit starts right up...however...I left it outside for an hour this afternoon so it got a chance to cool off and when I tried to start it back up...no luck..What are you cold weather guys doing???

 chris ambrose

 M3X Kolb / A-2200 ser 1228 74.hrs

 N327CS

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268452#268452

 > 

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		  [b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:32 am Post subject: Re: cold weather starting

Roger,



I agree with your suggestion of minimizing the spark plug gap for cold starting and in fact keep mine at minimum all year round because when the plugs wear, the gap always grows, never decreases. I also use 15W50 in my Jabiru engine all year round. 



When I was flying a Rotax 912 I installed a Reif electrical pre-heat system that always worked well and always kept the battery on a trickle charge when the overnight temperatures were expected to be at 35 or lower. On the Reif system the crankcase has a relatively low wattage crankcase heater that can be left on continuously in cold weather (except when flying of course) and also contains a sump heater with thermostat control to keep from over-cooking the oil. In either case, these systems aren't designed for a Jabiru. Perhaps either Rief or Tanis has one for the Jab engines. I've not looked since I'm going to store my Jab powered airplane over the winter.



FWIW:

The ideas expressed in the Tanis video on the ROAN site are all good but whoever produced the video is math challenged. It stated that raising the temperature by 15C equated to raising the temp by 59F. They also stated that raising the temperature by 28C equates to raising the temperature by 82F. Neither of these statements is close to accurate arithmetic. CHANGING temp is not the same as temperature reading on a scale. Changing the temperature by one(1) degree C equates to changing the temperature by 1.8 degrees F. So raising the temperature by 15C equates to raising the temperature by 15C x 1.8 = 27F, not 59F and raising temp by 28C x 1.8 = 50.4F.



It is true that on comparative scales a temperature of 15C = 59F and that 28C = 82.4F but you can't do a CHANGE in temperature in this way, the arithmetic must be done to get the correct CHANGE in temps.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:35 am Post subject: Re: cold weather starting

Ooops. Correction on "15W50 all year round." I use this during my entire flying season which includes some pretty cool weather but use Aeroshell Preservative Oil FL-2 during storage over the winter.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Stephen Smith

Joined: 02 Jul 2009
Posts: 13
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:51 am Post subject: Re: cold weather starting

Spark plug gap is a big deal on Jabiru engines for cold starting.  Keep them gapped at .22.  If they get above about .26 you will have cold starting problems.



I use iridium spark plugs (NGK DR9EIX).  I have 250 hours on them and the gap has not changed.  The plugs are cheaper in the long run.



Steve

_________________
Steve Smith
N601WF
Zenair Zodiac XL
Jabiru 3300
600+ hours
Sensenich composite - ground adjustable

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:13 am Post subject: Re: cold weather starting

Hi Thom,



Some one else on another website pointed out their math was a little to be desired, but the concept and product work.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:54 am Post subject: cold weather starting

Nobody has mentioned the rerouting of the ground on the starter as a

possible solution. From the factory the starter grounds through the two long

bolts that clamp the starter together. These can get corroded and not

adequately ground the starter's actual ground circuit. I think there is an

SB which says to add a substantial ground strap from one end of the starter

to the other.



-- Craig

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: cold weather starting

Well....I know my plugs are set at .024,so I will put them at .022 and I checked the coils and they were set at around .036...so I'm thinking that is my big problem...I will adjust tomorrow and try it and let you all know...I have a 60 watt bulb I place under the engine with a sleeping bag wrapped around it and that works great ! Keeps the engine around 95* ! It always starts then !



chris ambrose

m3x/jab a-2200  74 hrs

N327CS

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: cold weather starting

Chris,



Very creative engine warmer using what is at hand. 



I use a 25 watt bulb in an old igloo ice chest to keep my lubricants, loctites. RTVs etc from freezing in our unheated shop/hangar during the winter.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

pete(at)usjabiru.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:09 pm Post subject: cold weather starting

Easy way to set ignition coil gap:



Line up flywheel magnets with the coil.  Loosen coil attach bolts.  Pull

coil away from magnet.  Insert business card between coil & magnet.  Let

magnets pull the coil tight up against the business card.  Tighten bolts and

work prop back & forth to remove card.



Pete

Pete Krotje

Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC

931-680-2800

www.usjabiru.com





--

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: cold weather starting

Pete...Thank you....



chris ambrose

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: cold weather starting

Hello All...



Success !!!!   I adjusted the coils to .020,cleaned everything up...and away she went....38* today and even with no choke it started right up ! 



Thank you all for your help !



chris ambrose

Kolb M3X / Jab A- 2200  74. hrs

N327CS

jacksbird(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:57 am Post subject: cold weather starting

Hi Folks,

I have meticulously followed the cold weather start procedure in the manual 

(A 2200 - 21 hours) and tried several of the ideas expressed on this web 

site but none have created a consistent and sustainable cold start. After 

growing weary of my complaining, a friend suggested giving the engine a 2 

second burst of ether based starting spray through the air filter ( $2.35 a 

can at your local automotive store) . First test was a cold (41F) damp day. 

It started "instantly".  All subsequent starts have had the same outcome. 

Two things I don't know are:

1. Is there a temperature below which it won't start? I may find out when 

the arctic air hits Michigan.

2. I don't know if there is any long term damage potential to the engine, 

seals, air filter, etc..



Depending upon the results this winter, I will come up with a simple method 

to inject the spray through the air filter from the cockpit and incorporate 

it into the startup procedure. What are your thoughts?



John Abbott

Kolb MX3



---

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:09 am Post subject: cold weather starting

I use starting fluid a lot on equipment around the farm. A two second burst is too much, less than a second long blast is all that should be needed.Ether will strip the oil out of your air filter and decrease its effectiveness.

 Personally, I have no problem using it on a string trimmer or mower, but an airplane engine, no way. Too pricey if something goes wrong. MHO.

Rick Girard



On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 9:55 AM, John Abbott <jacksbird(at)charter.net (jacksbird(at)charter.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "John Abbott" <jacksbird(at)charter.net (jacksbird(at)charter.net)>

  

 Hi Folks,

 I have meticulously followed the cold weather start procedure in the manual (A 2200 - 21 hours) and tried several of the ideas expressed on this web site but none have created a consistent and sustainable cold start. After growing weary of my complaining, a friend suggested giving the engine a 2 second burst of ether based starting spray through the air filter ( $2.35 a can at your local automotive store) . First test was a cold (41F) damp day. It started "instantly".  All subsequent starts have had the same outcome. Two things I don't know are:

  1. Is there a temperature below which it won't start? I may find out when the arctic air hits Michigan.

 2. I don't know if there is any long term damage potential to the engine, seals, air filter, etc..

 

 Depending upon the results this winter, I will come up with a simple method to inject the spray through the air filter from the cockpit and incorporate it into the startup procedure. What are your thoughts?

 

 John Abbott

 Kolb MX3

 

 ---

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

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