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QB Fuselage Question

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Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:55 am Post subject: QB Fuselage Question

I'm at the dreaded front floor removal debate. Adding to the anxiety

is the fact that the floorboards to side skin rails mismatch the holes

by 1/4 to 1/2" and I see no give at all in the side skins, nor the

floor ribs to close that gap. I'm leaning towards removing at least

one gear weldment and floor board to see what is there and to install

insulation. Not to mention that the 9 pop rivets holding the floor in

are button heads, not flush, even though the skin is dimpled for

flush.

Thoughts?

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:19 am Post subject: QB Fuselage Question

The rivets are just temporaries, but not sure what to tell you about

the mismatch.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I'm at the dreaded front floor removal debate. Adding to the anxiety

 is the fact that the floorboards to side skin rails mismatch the holes

 by 1/4 to 1/2" and I see no give at all in the side skins, nor the

 floor ribs to close that gap. I'm leaning towards removing at least

 one gear weldment and floor board to see what is there and to install

 insulation. Not to mention that the 9 pop rivets holding the floor in

 are button heads, not flush, even though the skin is dimpled for

 flush.

 Thoughts?

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:57 am Post subject: QB Fuselage Question

Hey Kelly,



I just went through this and I'd encourage you not to do it.  It's is a

royal PITA and I'm sorry I did it.



I fixed the alignment issues by starting to cleco in the center of the

floor plan and working my way to the sides.  Everything aligned just

fine.



A word of advice though.  Check the torque values on those AN3 bolts.

I'll bet they're torqued up to 85 inches.  I replaced the bolts that I

could easily replace and I replaced nearly all of the nuts and retorqued

to 25 inches.



But I wouldn't wish a main gear mount removal on my worst enemy.  Never.



Phil



--

Jim Berry

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 237
Location: Denver

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: QB Fuselage Question

Kelly,



I don't know about the gap, but there is no other reason to remove the floor boards. After drilling out the temp rivets you will be able to pull up the aft edge of the floor boards, without removing it altogether. That will give you enough access to snake a hose forward to vacuum out whatever the QB guys left for you. I was also able to insert pieces of insulation and slide them forward.



Jim Berry

40482

N15JB

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:38 pm Post subject: QB Fuselage Question

Agreed. But until I spoke to Vans in 2005 about their failure to install the

4 nut plates for the forward gear mount supports. The front floors and gear

mounts had to be removed to install these nut plates. After 2005 the nut

plate for the forward gear mount support have been installed by the QB,

eliminating the requirement to remove the gear mounts and the front floors.

Ditto for the rear floors; suggest not removing the rear floors; no need.  



--

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:54 pm Post subject: QB Fuselage Question

The rear floors come off easy, the pop rivets were wrong and had to be

drilled anyway. I'll take the suggestion to just pry one corner on the

front floorboards. I'll try clecoing the front floor together, but

sure looks like a serious mismatch.



On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 1:28 PM, David McNeill <dlm46007(at)cox.net> wrote:

[quote] 



 Agreed. But until I spoke to Vans in 2005 about their failure to install the

 4 nut plates for the forward gear mount supports. The front floors and gear

 mounts had to be removed to install these nut plates. After 2005 the nut

 plate for the forward gear mount support have been installed by the QB,

 eliminating the requirement to remove the gear mounts and the front floors.

 Ditto for the rear floors; suggest not removing the rear floors; no need.



 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:13 pm Post subject: QB Fuselage Question

You win the prize for the best advice. Got one floor board up this 

afternoon. Also managed to find that I could get the floor board clecod 

except for the rear outer two holes...which appear to not have been drilled.



Jim Berry wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Kelly,

 

 I don't know about the gap, but there is no other reason to remove the floor boards. After drilling out the temp rivets you will be able to pull up the aft edge of the floor boards, without removing it altogether. That will give you enough access to snake a hose forward to vacuum out whatever the QB guys left for you. I was also able to insert pieces of insulation and slide them forward.

 

 Jim Berry

 40482

 N15JB

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

dmaib(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:23 pm Post subject: QB Fuselage Question

I seem to remember that the pop rivets in the front and rear floors  

are temporary and are supposed to be removed and replaced with pop  

rivets called out in the plans. I agree with Phil that taking the  

gear weldments/front floors out is not worth the grief. You will be  

undoing work that you paid to have done at the QB factory.



David Maib

40559

Flying



On Oct 15, 2009, at 4:47 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:






The rear floors come off easy, the pop rivets were wrong and had to be

drilled anyway. I'll take the suggestion to just pry one corner on the

front floorboards. I'll try clecoing the front floor together, but

sure looks like a serious mismatch.



On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 1:28 PM, David McNeill <dlm46007(at)cox.net> wrote:

[quote] 



 Agreed. But until I spoke to Vans in 2005 about their failure to  

 install the

 4 nut plates for the forward gear mount supports. The front floors  

 and gear

 mounts had to be removed to install these nut plates. After 2005  

 the nut

 plate for the forward gear mount support have been installed by the  

 QB,

 eliminating the requirement to remove the gear mounts and the front  

 floors.

 Ditto for the rear floors; suggest not removing the rear floors; no  

 need.



 --

johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: QB Fuselage Question

You paid a lot for the QB. If you are really terrified of what you might find under the front floors, buy a fiber optic scope and look. There are lightening holes behind every space located at the aft end under the seats.

Vacuum hoses and magnets also work well.

John

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:17 pm Post subject: QB Fuselage Question

What good kit hasn't been assembled and disassembled at least 4 times? 

Somehow, half dozen screws and temporary pop rivets aren't a big deal to 

be able to install some good insulation down there, to help keep cabin 

noise tolerable.



johngoodman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 You paid a lot for the QB. If you are really terrified of what you might find under the front floors, buy a fiber optic scope and look. There are lightening holes behind every space located at the aft end under the seats.

 Vacuum hoses and magnets also work well.

 John

 

 --------

 #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine &amp; Panel delivery soon.

 N711JG reserved

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 68168#268168

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Jim Berry

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 237
Location: Denver

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: QB Fuselage Question

I will second John's recommendation re a fiber optic scope. See the multiple postings on the Aerolectric list about the Harbor Freight unit. I bought one on sale for $100 and have used it many times. It is a hair too big to slip through a spark plug hole though. I am even thinking about doing my own colonoscopy with it. Probably would not have to worry about anyone pilfering it after that.



Jim Berry

40482

N15Jb

johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: QB Fuselage Question

 	  Quote: 	
		  What good kit hasn't been assembled and disassembled at least 4 times? 

Somehow, half dozen screws and temporary pop rivets aren't a big deal to 

be able to install some good insulation down there, to help keep cabin 

noise tolerable. 	




Ah, my favorite subject. A good insulation. Try this: 

Abesco FP 200.  I don't have an interest in it other than I like it and use it. Here is a place to start your research:

http://cableorganizer.com/abesco-fire-rated-foam/



John

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:34 pm Post subject: QB Fuselage Question

Hey Kelly,



One other thing I did is replace the AN515-8R8 screws on the front of

the seat covers with NAS1801-08-8 structural hex head screws.



The head is a little smaller than the kit provided screws, but I like

the ability to use a 1/4" nut driver, socket, wrench, or screw driver

for removal.  That bottom one that is the most inboard is a ******....

Not anymore though. 



Phil





--

n223rv(at)wolflakeairport
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:14 am Post subject: QB Fuselage Question

We removed the mounts on my buddies -10.  Cleaned, primed, and  

insulated under the floors.  Yes the holes were hard to get back lined  

up, but you can do it.  It isn't nearly as hard as the fiberglass you  

will soon find.....



Sent from my iPhone



On Oct 15, 2009, at 11:14 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>  

wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 What good kit hasn't been assembled and disassembled at least 4  

 times? Somehow, half dozen screws and temporary pop rivets aren't a  

 big deal to be able to install some good insulation down there, to  

 help keep cabin noise tolerable.



 johngoodman wrote:

> 

> >

> You paid a lot for the QB. If you are really terrified of what you  

> might find under the front floors, buy a fiber optic scope and  

> look. There are lightening holes behind every space located at the  

> aft end under the seats.

> Vacuum hoses and magnets also work well.

> John

> --------

> #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine  

> &amp; Panel delivery soon.

> N711JG reserved

> Read this topic online here:

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 68168#268168

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:31 pm Post subject: QB Fuselage Question

Funny you mention work paid to be done in the Philippines. Phil and I

have exchanged squawk lists on our QB fuselages. With only a few

exceptions they were identical. Looks like I will have to drill out

all the mid fuselage longeron rivets (F-1046) to do countersinking

that wasn't done, to trim the baggage door seal angle, and drill out

some of the F1013 left longeron to trim it to length without damaging

the skin.  Clearly the QA/QC of the old facility was not transferred

to the new Philippine facility. Hopefully Vans hears this loud and

clear. More when I get a response from them.



On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 5:19 PM, David Maib <dmaib(at)mac.com> wrote:

 I agree with Phil that taking the gear weldments/front

 	  Quote: 	
		   floors out is not worth the grief. You will be undoing work that you paid to

 have done at the QB factory.



 David Maib

 40559

 Flying

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

Bill Cannon

Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Posts: 11
Location: New Jersey

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:17 am Post subject: Re: QB Fuselage Question

My QB fuse came in the container after Phil's.  I have some of the same issues with the longerons and torques but the floor panels seem lined up.



A couple of things I have come across in the past few days while inspecting and checking off the steps.



1.  The bottom aft skin was drilled and dimpled where the F-1006B bulkhead and tailcone bottom skin are supposed to be match drilled to it.  I talked to Vans and was given two options.... flatten out the dimples and match drill as per instructions or trust the pre punches are lined up correctly.  I have trusted the pre punch in the past when replacing a skin on an elevator and everything worked out fine by just drilling the holes in the skin to size and dimpling.  I am thinking I will just drill the tailcone by itself, dimple it and the put it together with the holes that are already done on the fuselage.



2.  The inboard and outboard forward seat rail supports were riveted to the bulkheads(F-1043A L&R) using AN470 rivets instead of 426s.  470 is correct for the bottom 4 rivets but the top two need to be 426s to get the F-1043D to lay flat on the front to the seat bottom assembly.  Since they were right at the edge of the front panel I cut notches in the panel to allow the 470s to remain without pushing out the panel.  There are already holes or notches where bolt heads protrude so I saw no problem in doing this.  It's somewhat of a puzzle getting the panel off without removing the gear bracket but it can be done.



3.  The F-1004M wear strip was not installed by QB and no parts provided in kit.  Vans is sending the parts



4.   The flap actuator brackets (F-1066B L&R) are cut into left and right.  Right is installed now and Left is retained for attaching the actuator.  Right is riveted to the plane and the left is in the Phillipines.  A new part is coming from Vans.



5.  I remember reading somewhere that the QB process involved priming.  Either the primer they are using is clear or it was not done.  The metal is nice and greasy though  



Just thought I'd add to the list to help anyone else out there trying to get through the QB check.



bill

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:52 am Post subject: QB Fuselage Question

Yeah, the "primer" allegedly is clear with no solids content. How this 

protects the metal is a mystery to me. The metal appears to have been 

scuffed. Whatever the coating, it must be very thin. There must be a big 

collection of snap bushings in the Phillipines as none got in the QB nor 

the parts kit. It is a shame that Van's apparently is depending 100% on 

builders to do QC.



Bill Cannon wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 My QB fuse came in the container after Phil's.  I have some of the same issues with the longerons and torques but the floor panels seem lined up.

 

 A couple of things I have come across in the past few days while inspecting and checking off the steps.

 

 1.  The bottom aft skin was drilled and dimpled where the F-1006B bulkhead and tailcone bottom skin are supposed to be match drilled to it.  I talked to Vans and was given two options.... flatten out the dimples and match drill as per instructions or trust the pre punches are lined up correctly.  I have trusted the pre punch in the past when replacing a skin on an elevator and everything worked out fine by just drilling the holes in the skin to size and dimpling.  I am thinking I will just drill the tailcone by itself, dimple it and the put it together with the holes that are already done on the fuselage.

 

 2.  The inboard and outboard forward seat rail supports were riveted to the bulkheads(F-1043A L&R) using AN470 rivets instead of 426s.  470 is correct for the bottom 4 rivets but the top two need to be 426s to get the F-1043D to lay flat on the front to the seat bottom assembly.  Since they were right at the edge of the front panel I cut notches in the panel to allow the 470s to remain without pushing out the panel.  There are already holes or notches where bolt heads protrude so I saw no problem in doing this.  It's somewhat of a puzzle getting the panel off without removing the gear bracket but it can be done.

 

 3.  The F-1004M wear strip was not installed by QB and no parts provided in kit.  Vans is sending the parts

 

 4.   The flap actuator brackets (F-1066B L&R) are cut into left and right.  Right is installed now and Left is retained for attaching the actuator.  Right is riveted to the plane and the left is in the Phillipines.  A new part is coming from Vans.

 

 5.  I remember reading somewhere that the QB process involved priming.  Either the primer they are using is clear or it was not done.  The metal is nice and greasy though [Shocked] 

 

 Just thought I'd add to the list to help anyone else out there trying to get through the QB check.

 

 bill

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 70217#270217

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:02 pm Post subject: QB Fuselage Question

It has solids, it just doesn't have any pigment (like is required in the states).

 

 To test the film for yourself, drop a factory primed piece into alumaprep for 5 min and pull it out.   You'll see the coating beginning to wrinkle and peel.  The aluminum will barely be touched and you will have to peel the primer off like a banana.

 

 After seeing it with my own eyes, I realized I was worried about nothing. And actually felt pretty stupid when I realized how much trust I put in my perception of effectiveness because of pigment.

 

 I'm not worried at all about their choice of primers now.  Give it a shot for the peace of mind.

 

 Phil

 

 

 

 

 ---

Bill Cannon

Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Posts: 11
Location: New Jersey

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:18 am Post subject: Re: QB Fuselage Question

will do. At this point it would be easier to move to a dry climate than prime it anyway.

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