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capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:12 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

Dave I'm with you , I crashed with the demo pilot at TNK Norm Labhart the lawyers that my wife had wanted me to sue for millions of dollars, Kolb , Rotax , The pilots widow ,  I look at life very much like I believe from your email you do , I couldn't sue Kolb there was very little wrong with the Mk III ex , I couldn't sue Rotax the NTSB took the engine to Fl . put it on a stand and ran it WFO for 100 hrs without failure, and Norms wife I could have sued her and taken their home but I wouldn't do something like that , he had 2 kids 8 and 6 and I could never be that much of an asshole. He was from all reports John Haucks and every one who new him a good  man and a good pilot ! 

     Our society has turned into an overly litigious abortion ,I walked around that aircraft and I got in what happened to me was my responsibility! Amen!  Chris

  

  

  

 I 

Chris Davis

KXP 503 492 hrs

Glider Pilot

Disabled from crash building Firefly  



 

   From: Dave Kulp <undoctor(at)ptd.net>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Thu, October 22, 2009 10:13:42 AM

Subject: Re: Kolb-List: law suit after selling plane?



--> Kolb-List message posted by: Dave Kulp <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)>



    



Kolbers,



The discussion we're seeing on liability is an indictment on the lack of personal responsibility that is becoming more and more prevalent in our society.  We're turning into a bunch of whining, puking babies, to quote a master.



Re: my catastrophic failure at over 1000' AGL in an underconstructed Chicken Hawk, I did try to locate the mfgr. in Bellingham, WA, but learned he was out of  business.  I intended to sue the manufacturer, since the manufacturer has the responsibility to build a product that is adequate for its intended purpose, and just as the consumer doesn't have the obligation to check the tensile strength of the tie rods of the car he buys, I should not be expected to research the cables used for the flight controls, which had failed.



But!!!  that's where it stops with a reasonable person in this kind of situation.  I never considered suing the man I bought the UL from, the fellow who put it together, the owner of the strip I flew out of, or even the man a mile from the airstrip whose brush growing along his drive served to allow me to survive the fall.  None of them had any responsibility for the construction of or my decision to fly the aircraft.  And since I've raised my children with the same personal responsibility philosophy that was bred into me, it's highly unlikely they would have  acted any differently if I hadn't survived.



Bottom line: anyone can sue anyone for almost anything, so you can't shovel snow perfectly enough to totally escape the threat of a lawsuit.  I believe it's best to just relax, go about life in a reasonable manner, and fight the bozos when you must.  There are too many of them on the loose to avoid them entirely!



Dave Kulp

Bethlehem, PA

FireFly 11DMK



You can check      undoctor(at)rcn.com (undoctor(at)rcn.com).05.07.2007      if you'd like to check pics, etc. of the failure and crash.



Time:    06:11:03 PM PST US

Subject:    Re: law suit after selling plane?

From:    "Don G" <donghe(at)one-eleven.net (donghe(at)one-eleven.net)>

              Grant,

    Here is my advice..although as  has been already said...its worth what you are

    paying for it...

          Demo the plane for the buyer...show him it is flys...

    then take it apart...not completely of course... just take the wings off and take

    out the fuel tank if its not too hard...simple things and  have him help so

    he can see how to put it back together..

    Then have him sign a doc that says he is buying an aircraft that is NOT in flying

    condition...parts sale only.

    Pack it up and send him on his way.

    Even a rookie lawyer could defend you against his heirs if he kills himself in

    it then.

           --------

    Don G.

    Central Illinois

  - p;             -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

_======



         [quote][b]

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:39 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

At 09:22 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Dave I'm with you , I crashed with the demo pilot at TNK Norm Labhart the lawyers that my wife had wanted me to sue for millions of dollars--snip--

     Our society has turned into an overly litigious abortion ,I walked around that aircraft and I got in what happened to me was my responsibility! Amen!  Chris

 	


 It wasn't for you it was for him (the lawyer). Same, same for class actions law suits, where the lawyers get $125,000,000 and the plaintiffs

 get a $500 coupon of their next purchase of a Pinto. (That would be a "Yugo" to you Pat) 

      [quote][b]

_________________
Possum

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:29 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

A few more with your out look may slow the  litigation lawyers down. Good on you for the sensable approach . I have  always thought that if sued and found to be not at fault  you should be  able to counter sue for the costs, stress or damage to name. The mind  boggles from a place that doesn't provide for suing. Why should someone profit  from someone else's  misfortune. As you said the choice is yours as to  whether you hop in or not. You can bet your last $ that the PIC is aiming for a  totally non eventful flight as well .  People like your self  inspire confidence in the human race.

  

 Downunder

 MK111c

 [quote]   ---

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:59 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

class actions law suits, >>

  

 It is a less litigious society over here, but don`t  worry, we are getting there.  Often now a claim will be pursued not because  a law was broken but because `guide lines` were not followed. 

 We have a thing called ` Health and Safety`  which it seems dreams up all sorts of ridiculous rules. If you have to change a  light bulb and climb higher than 3 feet you MUST have a a ladder. Standing on a  chair and then falling of means you `were not following guide lines` A  policeman is now not allowed to rescue someone drowning unless he has received  `specialist training`. This happened the other day and while the policeman was  being told  by his headquarters via his cell phone  that he  should not do anything a bystander went in and pulled the drowning guy out. Boy  Scouts are not allowed to take penknives to camp and are not allowed to light  fires. This is not the law, merely `guide lines`. The problem is that if an  accident occurs the first question is`Did you follow the guide lines` You  didn`t? Well there you are then! You have three strikes against you before the  case starts, .and the insurance company collects again. The result is that  teachers will not take schoolkids on outings, no one will be a Scoutmaster or a  Girl Guide leader. Who loses out?.The kids the system was designed to  protect.

 What really makes me angry is that it only needs  one judge to take a stand and a commonsense view and say `Case dismissed and I  award costs against the complainant` and the whole edifice would collapse like a  house of cards. Unfortunately there is too much money riding on the system  whereby everyone in the legal profession briefs, and charges, someone else and  every lawyer wants eventually to get to the top of the pile.

  

 We have just had a case of a weight shift which  failed in flight and everyone, including the unpaid inspector who signed the  machine off were going to be sued. The charge of course was `negligence`. Nearly  everyone in the microlight movement kicked in some money for a fighting fund and  in the face of expert witnesses flown in from around the world  the judge  decided there was no negligence and everyone breathed a sigh of relief because a  finding the other way would have stopped our entire system in its tracks.  

  

 People wonder why we talk of `the good old  days`

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

  

   [quote][b]

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:22 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

Sounds as if Shakespeare was right??    Herb 



 

 At 05:58 AM 10/23/2009, you wrote:

 [quote]class actions law suits, >>

  

 It is a less litigious society over here, but don`t worry, we are getting there.  Often now a claim will be pursued not because a law was broken but because `guide lines` were not followed. 

 We have a thing called ` Health and Safety` which it seems dreams up all sorts of ridiculous rules. If you have to change a light bulb and climb higher than 3 feet you MUST have a a ladder. Standing on a chair and then falling of means you `were not following guide lines` A policeman is now not allowed to rescue someone drowning unless he has received `specialist training`. This happened the other day and while the policeman was being told  by his headquarters via his cell phone  that he should not do anything a bystander went in and pulled the drowning guy out. Boy Scouts are not allowed to take penknives to camp and are not allowed to light fires. This is not the law, merely `guide lines`. The problem is that if an accident occurs the first question is`Did you follow the guide lines` You didn`t? Well there you are then! You have three strikes against you before the case starts, .and the insurance company collects again. The result is that teachers will not take schoolkids on outings, no one will be a Scoutmaster or a Girl Guide leader. Who loses out?.The kids the system was designed to protect.

 What really makes me angry is that it only needs one judge to take a stand and a commonsense view and say `Case dismissed and I award costs against the complainant` and the whole edifice would collapse like a house of cards. Unfortunately there is too much money riding on the system whereby everyone in the legal profession briefs, and charges, someone else and every lawyer wants eventually to get to the top of the pile.

  

 We have just had a case of a weight shift which failed in flight and everyone, including the unpaid inspector who signed the machine off were going to be sued. The charge of course was `negligence`. Nearly everyone in the microlight movement kicked in some money for a fighting fund and in the face of expert witnesses flown in from around the world  the judge decided there was no negligence and everyone breathed a sigh of relief because a finding the other way would have stopped our entire system in its tracks. 

  

 People wonder why we talk of `the good old days`

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

  



 [b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:40 am Post subject: Re: law suit after selling plane?

Pat,



In the USofA we have the Occupational Safey and Health Administration (OSHA for short).  Attached is a .jpg of a caricature of what a cowboy's riding paraphernalia might look like if OSHA was in charge of making the cowboy safe. 



Do Not Archive this non-kolb related stuff.

cowboy.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

184.37 KB

Viewed:

6272 Time(s)

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:10 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

USofA we have the Occupational Safey and Health Administration (OSHA for 

short).  Attached is a .jpg of a caricature of what a cowboy's riding 

paraphernalia might look like if OSHA was in charge of making the cowboy 

safe. >>



Looks as though our governmental agencies are related. Thanks for the pic. I 

like the `Blue tail fly repellent.



Cheers



Pat



do not archive

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:13 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

Sounds as if Shakespeare was right??     Herb



 He was right about a lot of things. Which bit?  (showing my ignorance)

  

 Pat

  

 do not archive

   [quote][b]

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:27 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

The lawyer utterance...Herb 



 

 At 11:13 AM 10/23/2009, you wrote:

 [quote]Sounds as if Shakespeare was right??    Herb

 He was right about a lot of things. Which bit? (showing my ignorance)

  

 Pat

  

 do not archive

 

 [b]

russkinne(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:02 am Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

Mike

What you say is quite true -- but if trouble comes, you're a LOT  

better off if you have  a signed release.

Involves 'intent' on buyer's part.

Russ K

do not archive



On Oct 22, 2009, at 10:53 PM, possums wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 At 09:10 PM 10/21/2009, you wrote:

> 

>

> Grant,

> Here is my advice..although as  has been already said...its worth  

> what you are paying for it...

>

> Demo the plane for the buyer...show him it is flys...

> then take it apart...not completely of course... just take the  

> wings off and take out the fuel tank if its not too hard...simple  

> things and  have him help so he can see how to put it back together..

> Then have him sign a doc that says he is buying an aircraft that  

> is NOT in flying condition...parts sale only.

> Pack it up and send him on his way.

> Even a rookie lawyer could defend you against his heirs if he  

> kills himself in it then.

>

> --------

> Don G.

 Here is what you have to understand.  No variation, no document, no  

 contract, in no way would ever work.  The person that buys your  

 plane may or may not be able to sue you depending on the details,  

 BUT....  The person that purchases your plane can NOT EVER sign the  

 rights of his family away, they can sue you no matter what he signs.



 Mike



 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast  

 as you could have !!!

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:09 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

Mike

What you say is quite true -- but if trouble comes, you're a LOT  

better off if you have  a signed release.

Involves 'intent' on buyer's part.

Russ K

do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


	


I think this has been gone over enough,,,   but if you sold the plane to the

wife, and had her sign it,,,  when her husband died in a crash,,,  well

worth  what you paid,   or better yet, sell it to both, and have both sign

the forms.     



Boyd

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:12 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

At 04:08 PM 10/23/2009, b young wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...or better yet, sell it to both, and have both sign

the forms.


	


That may be the best idea yet... only, if the wife is the kind that would 

be willing to sign, she's not the kind who'd sue anyway...



-Dana

--

  Have you any idea how successful censorship is on TV?  Don't know the 

answer?  Hm.  Successful.  Isn't it?

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:10 pm Post subject: law suit after selling plane?

The lawyer utterance...Herb

  

 Gotcha..  Pat

 



   [quote][b]

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