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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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 Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:17 am Post subject: Re: cold weather starting |
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John,
Sounds to me like your Bing carb enricher circuit or the starting circuit is not quite right, as in probably lean. I say lean because you are essentially priming the engine with "starting fluid" which results in an instant start. I would say it is time for you to do a carb tear-down, inspection and cleaning with selective replacement of seals or other worn parts. If might even find that the jets are not the correct number. If you don't have one I suggest you purchase the Bing manual from http://www.bingcarburetor.com/manual.html Last time I bought one it was $10 including shipping in the USA.
When the Bing carb is right I've never had any problem starting in cold or hot weather with the recommend starting procedure on any airplane I've owned with Bing carbs, which includes three with Rotax 912 engines and my current Jabiru 2200A.
http://riddletr.googlepages.com/a%26pmechanix
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_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous |
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Clive J
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 340
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:20 am Post subject: cold weather starting |
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In the UK over 4 different Jabiru engines I'd say we have the starting
problems at 2C and below even if everything else is hunky dory.
Needs to have been that cold overnight and generally a cold spell during
the day to spoil ones plans for a day out.
CJ
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Clive J
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 340
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:20 am Post subject: cold weather starting |
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Thom, cold starting problem is a typical issue with Jabiru engine with
Bing carby's as supplied by Jabiru, both 3300 and 2200.
Folk with new different carbs don't need to reply how well the fandango
Slurpo throttle works well and we should all change our crappy Bings,
cause I'm too tight and it's the only issue where the Bing isn't doing
what most of us want it to do.
Basic manual attached which is the same as the one hidden in the Jab
technical manual though not Jab specific.
I'm convinced everything else aside (plugs, gap, coil gap, battery
charge/temperature/condition etc etc) that the starting carburettor
jet/system doesn't make the engine rich enough to start easily and plan
to drill out the small 'pea' jet that feeds the starting carburettor as
soon as the UK get's into the non starting temperature range (another
month or so yet).
I have to say I'm not overly convinced that different oil viscosities
are an issue unless you are in the extremes and if you are sump heating
would be needed anyhow. The oil pump is small compared to dragging
pistons and cranks and creating compression.
Will let everyone know how I get on when the cold weather arrives such
that my little Jabs won't start. I know that several folk have had
success with a small drill and a magnifying glass.
Regards, Clive
Jabiru 2200 in an SP and Esqual with a 3300
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mhubel
Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 141
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:37 am Post subject: Re: cold weather starting |
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I will add that in 25 years of operating aircraft engines in the winter, my rule was unconditionally to preheat if the temperature even approached freezing. While one would expect an aircraft engine to start at 40F, that may be the lower limit if you want to be nice to the cylinders. Many engine manuals have a lower limit around 20F at which starting without heat is prohibited.
It would seem that having to use spray to start is just hiding something else like the Bing not being capable of starting over a really wide temperature range. Also using ether in a closed engine cowling may be a questionable thing. If you think a little spilled gas is flammable, it is nothing compared to some ether that leaked into the wrong place. Usually when you are using this stuff it is on a vehicle with the hood open so at least it is well vented.
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_________________
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
240 hr TAF
Pictures at photo.hubbles.com |
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:52 am Post subject: Re: cold weather starting |
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Perhaps the relatively balmy UK winters cause problems for the Bings but I've never had any such problem starting the Rotax 912 engines with Bing 64 carbs standard enricher and standard starting procedures in Buffalo, New York winters.
I've only recently acquired my Kolb with Jabiru 2200A and Bing 94/40 carb. It has started with no issues in the high 30s(F) (3-4C) so far this fall. I plan to store the airplane this winter but will attempt starting it with the winter storage oil (Aeroshell 2-F preservative oil) sometime after it gets cold here. I don't expect any trouble but won't know until I try it. I'll report back when the temps get down well below freezing.
http://riddletr.googlepages.com/a%26pmechanix
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_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous |
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plus2s
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 65
Location: NEW ZEALAND
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:51 am Post subject: cold weather starting |
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We have found that if the battery is 2 years old it loses its edge but if you jump from an additional battery it starts first time. Some here have put an external plug on the outside so you can plug in a battery without removing the cowls. The coils require 300 ? revs to produce a spark. Also make sure the throttle is closed and full choke. We also pull through about 6 compressions (with choke on) before trying to start.
Regards
Keith
--- On Sat, 24/10/09, James, Clive R <clive.james(at)uk.bp.com> wrote:
[quote]
From: James, Clive R <clive.james(at)uk.bp.com>
Subject: RE: Re: cold weather starting
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Received: Saturday, 24 October, 2009, 5:16 AM
--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "James, Clive R" <clive.james(at)uk.bp.com (clive.james(at)uk.bp.com)>
In the UK over 4 different Jabiru engines I'd say we have the starting
problems at 2C and below even if everything else is hunky dory.
Needs to have been that cold overnight and generally a cold spell during
the day to spoil ones plans for a day out.
CJ
--
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Peter H
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 197
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:51 pm Post subject: cold weather starting |
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One of the Jab engineers told me that it needs 300RPM to make a fat enough
spark. Need a good battery and short leads and make sure the starter motor
is separately earthed to achieve 300RPM.
The point is that the magnetos come from an application in a stationary
engine and meant to fire 1 plug direct not 4 or 6 via a distributor.
Under cold conditions these factors count.
Peter
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aussiech650
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
Posts: 25
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: cold weather starting |
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I would highly recommend that you do not use Ether starting fluids on your aero engine for several reasons.
Ether start will dilute the residual oil film on your valve stems, cylinders pistons and rings. The dilution of this oil film at the most critical time for your engine when the clearances are tight due to contraction of the metal in cold weather results in very high levels of wear. You may have heard people say that engines become addicted to ether starting fluids, this is simply due to components wearing to such an extent that the engine performance is reduced to the point where starting is almost impossible without the use of ether when the engine is cold and the ring pressure on the cylinder walls is reduced.
The second reason is that the use of Ether starting fluids results in uncontrolled combustion and this is by far the most dangerous to your engine and you. This uncontrolled combustion can break pistons and piston rings , damage bearings, connecting rods and the crankshaft. Unfortunately engine failures that occur as a result of ether starting fluid rarely become evident immediately after the engine starts, the failures occur when the damaged component fails under heavy load, ie full throttle.
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