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mhilderbrand

Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 36

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:24 pm Post subject: Problem after ground run

Hi everyone, 

  

 Today during another ground run to adjust the aerocarb (on the Jab3300A) my father and I noticed a rattling sound.  After turning the prop over by hand I noticed a "clonk" sound during compression of the #6 cylinder.  Looks like there will be NO first flight anytime soon   

  

 I am scared that maybe the # 6 overheated.  Even though I kill the engine when the CHT gets close to max, they still seem to creep up past max - delayed response. I am hoping a brief period over 356 F would not cause major damage.  Also to note: there is some spotted areas of "crumpling" of the cylinder coating (kind of like painting over an area contaminated by another chemical).  

  

 I am debating WHAT the heck to do?  Should I tear this down myself or send it back to TN for repairs. Any thought?  Here is a link to a Youtube video I made while out there

  

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22z4HvFkfbc

 

 

Michael Hilderbrand

Derby, Kansas

Http://www.kansasflying.com  

 



 [quote][b]

Peter H

Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 197

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:14 pm Post subject: Problem after ground run

Michael,  

I had an incidence of a dropped valve during a very short run at over T. The valve insert was hammered into the cylinder. Luckily there is plenty of space above the top of the piston. It is an easy job to remove the head but first have a look at the tappets to see if there is excess clearance on #6.  

Peter        

  

From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Hilderbrand

 Sent: Saturday, 24 October 2009 11:23 AM

 To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Problem after ground run  

  

           

Hi everyone,   

    

   

    

Today during another ground run to adjust the aerocarb (on the Jab3300A) my father and I noticed a rattling sound.  After turning the prop over by hand I noticed a "clonk" sound during compression of the #6 cylinder.  Looks like there will be NO first flight anytime soon     

    

   

    

I am scared that maybe the # 6 overheated.  Even though I kill the engine when the CHT gets close to max, they still seem to creep up past max - delayed response. I am hoping a brief period over 356 F would not cause major damage.  Also to note: there is some spotted areas of "crumpling" of the cylinder coating (kind of like painting over an area contaminated by another chemical).    

    

   

    

I am debating WHAT the heck to do?  Should I tear this down myself or send it back to TN for repairs. Any thought?  Here is a link to a Youtube video I made while out there  

    

   

    

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22z4HvFkfbc  

    



    

  

Michael Hilderbrand

 Derby, Kansas

 Http://www.kansasflying.com   

  



    

  

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mhilderbrand

Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 36

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:34 pm Post subject: Problem after ground run

I was wondering how "easy" it would be to remove a jug, or just the head.   My father was thinking maybe a circlip, valve, or messed up ring being the culprit (?).   

  

 I plan on calling Pete Monday.  

  

  

Michael Hilderbrand

Derby, Kansas

Http://www.kansasflying.com 



 

   From: Peter Harris <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com>

To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 9:13:58 PM

Subject: RE: Problem after ground run



       

Michael, 

I had an incidence of a dropped valve during a very short run at over T. The valve insert was hammered into the cylinder. Luckily there is plenty of space above the top of the piston. It is an easy job to remove the head but first have a look at the tappets to see if there is excess clearance on #6. 

Peter    

 

From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Hilderbrand

Sent: Saturday, 24 October 2009 11:23 AM

To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Problem after ground run

 

      

Hi everyone, 

  

 

  

Today during another ground run to adjust the aerocarb (on the Jab3300A) my father and I noticed a rattling sound.  After turning the prop over by hand I noticed a "clonk" sound during compression of the #6 cylinder.  Looks like there will be NO first flight anytime soon   

  

 

  

I am scared that maybe the # 6 overheated.  Even though I kill the engine when the CHT gets close to max, they still seem to creep up past max - delayed response. I am hoping a brief period over 356 F would not cause major damage.  Also to note: there is some spotted areas of "crumpling" of the cylinder coating (kind of like painting over an area contaminated by another chemical).  

  

 

  

I am debating WHAT the heck to do?  Should I tear this down myself or send it back to TN for repairs. Any thought?  Here is a link to a Youtube video I made while out there

  

 

  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22z4HvFkfbc

  



 

 

Michael Hilderbrand

Derby , Kansas

Http://www.kansasflying.com 

 



 



 	  Quote: 	
		      http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com  	
0 	  Quote: 	
		    	
1 	  Quote: 	
		    	
2

No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 270.14.20/2444 - Release Date: 10/23/09 14:09:00  	  Quote: 	
		    	
3 

 [quote][b]

wypaul

Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 24

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:36 am Post subject: Re: Problem after ground run

It is an easy job to pull the head but check the rocker arm first, that will tell you if it is the valve set as Peter and I suspect.

_________________
Paul Spackman
Q-2 Jabiru 3300

Kayberg(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:35 am Post subject: Problem after ground run

Michael, the noise you hear is a valve sticking.   It is hanging  up momentarily and then snaping down.  I have seen it happen before.

  

 Talk to Pete or someone at Shelbyville, but I suspect you may have some  fuel contamination issues. 

  

 It is not an expensive problem.

  

 Doug Koenigsberg

  

  

 In a message dated 10/23/2009 11:34:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  m_hilderbrand(at)sbcglobal.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     I was wondering how "easy" it would be to remove a jug, or just the    head.   My father was thinking maybe a circlip, valve, or messed    up ring being the culprit (?).   

    

   I plan on calling Pete Monday.  

    

    

Michael Hilderbrand

Derby,    Kansas

Http://www.kansasflying.com 	


 

  

  [quote][b]

dons701

Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 80
Location: Hershey, PA

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Problem after ground run

Hi Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to stick ? What typically has been seen as the cause of sticking lifters when found on 2200 and 3300's ? Anyone ?

    Thanks, Don Burkholder

_________________
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:09 am Post subject: Problem after ground run

Mike,

 Pull the valve cover and watch the valves and springs as you rotate the engine.you should not have clearance between the valve and rocker arm.Sounds like a valve sticking.

 G.Aman jabiru 2200A

 

   

 

   

 

 --

Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:35 am Post subject: Problem after ground run

In a message dated 10/24/2009 11:36:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  burdon1(at)COMCAST.NET writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Hi    Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to stick ? What    typically has been seen as the cause of sticking lifters when found on 2200    and 3300's ? Anyone ?

    Thanks, Don  Burkholder



	


 

  

  

 Use of autofuel with ethanol prompted some problems.   There  was some kind of unknown crud that showed up as a yellow gunk which seemed to  gum up the valves and left deposits in the cylinders.   It was bad  enough that the lifters stuck and the valves bent.  There was no carbon  buildup.

  

 When the engine is cold, at least at first, the lifters dont stick and the  engine will run fine.  But when it is warm or hot, you can get the  momentary sticking like you can hear on the video.   

  

 I would suggest checking the fuel by removing and dumping the Bing bowl in  a clear glass jar, running the fuel pump and letting the fuel in the lines run  into another clear jar for a pint or so and then checking your filter (I would  replace it, they are cheap).   If you have a gascolater, then dump it  as well.    Let the jars set overnite and see what ends up in the  bottom.

  

 It is possible to run really rich and get lifter sticking as well....at  least I would think so.  I dont know about that.

  

 The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a valve spring  compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the valves.   Then you  would know for sure what the substance is.

  

 If you are in the early stages of using the engine,  I hope you are  checking the CHTs carefully.   

  

 You should take a good look at the fuel before calling Shelbyville.

  

 Doug

  [quote][b]

Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:50 am Post subject: Problem after ground run

Sorry, all,  I thought Don was the guy with the problem...but  Hilderbrand is in Kansas with the sticking valve.

  

 Please take that into account.

  

 doug koenigsberg

  

  

 In a message dated 10/24/2009 3:36:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  Kayberg(at)aol.com writes:

 [quote]      In a message dated 10/24/2009 11:36:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,    burdon1(at)COMCAST.NET writes:

    	  Quote: 	
		  

Hi      Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to stick ?      What typically has been seen as the cause of sticking lifters when found on      2200 and 3300's ? Anyone ?

    Thanks, Don      Burkholder



	


   

    

    

   Use of autofuel with ethanol prompted some problems.      There was some kind of unknown crud that showed up as a yellow gunk which    seemed to gum up the valves and left deposits in the cylinders.   It    was bad enough that the lifters stuck and the valves bent.  There was no    carbon buildup.

    

   When the engine is cold, at least at first, the lifters dont stick and    the engine will run fine.  But when it is warm or hot, you can get the    momentary sticking like you can hear on the video.   

    

   I would suggest checking the fuel by removing and dumping the Bing bowl    in a clear glass jar, running the fuel pump and letting the fuel in the lines    run into another clear jar for a pint or so and then checking your filter (I    would replace it, they are cheap).   If you have a gascolater, then    dump it as well.    Let the jars set overnite and see what ends    up in the bottom.

    

   It is possible to run really rich and get lifter sticking as well...at    least I would think so.  I dont know about that.

    

   The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a valve    spring compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the valves.      Then you would know for sure what the substance is.

    

   If you are in the early stages of using the engine,  I hope you are    checking the CHTs carefully.   

    

   You should take a good look at the fuel before calling Shelbyville.

    

   Doug

[quote][b]  ==================================== BLOCKQUOTE>

 

  

  [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:08 pm Post subject: Problem after ground run

You don't even need a valve spring compressor the *remove* the  

springs (for installing, you do). Lay the head onto a wadded-up shop  

rag. Using a deep socket that is as large around as the outside  

diameter of the spring retainer, hold the socket down against the  

spring retainer with the "nut" end of the socket against the  

retainer, and (with a hammer) whack the "drive" end of the socket  

against the retainer. Best to hold the socket with a rag wrapped  

around your hand. This will drive the retainer downward, and the  

keepers will fall out of their usual position which is wedged against  

the valve by the retainer. It takes more time to explain this  

procedure than to actually do it. You cannot reinstall them this way,  

but it will allow you to remove them and get to the heart of the  

matter....inspection. With care, they can be reinstalled with a c- 

clamp and a short length of PVC pipe with a notch cut in one side.  

The notch is so you can reinsert the keepers into the spring  

retainer. This is a much trickier job than the removal, by far.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 802 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs--198 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

On Oct 24, 2009, at 3:31 PM, Kayberg(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a  

 valve spring compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the  

 valves.   Then you would know for sure what the substance is.

 Doug

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: Problem after ground run

Mike, Should you need a valve spring compressor, I have one you're welcome to use. If you need to do any dimensional inspection of the head I have a pretty good array of tools and a small granite slab, too.



 Rick Girard

just down the road in Udall



On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>

  

 You don't even need a valve spring compressor the *remove* the springs (for installing, you do). Lay the head onto a wadded-up shop rag. Using a deep socket that is as large around as the outside diameter of the spring retainer, hold the socket down against the spring retainer with the "nut" end of the socket against the retainer, and (with a hammer) whack the "drive" end of the socket against the retainer. Best to hold the socket with a rag wrapped around your hand. This will drive the retainer downward, and the keepers will fall out of their usual position which is wedged against the valve by the retainer. It takes more time to explain this procedure than to actually do it. You cannot reinstall them this way, but it will allow you to remove them and get to the heart of the matter....inspection. With care, they can be reinstalled with a c-clamp and a short length of PVC pipe with a notch cut in one side. The notch is so you can reinsert the keepers into the spring retainer. This is a much trickier job than the removal, by far.

  

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 Jabiru 2200, #2062, 802 hrs

 Countdown to 1000 hrs--198 to go

 Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

 Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 Rotec TBI-40 injection

 Status: flying (and learning)

 

 

 On Oct 24, 2009, at 3:31 PM, Kayberg(at)aol.com (Kayberg(at)aol.com) wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   

 The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a valve spring compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the valves.   Then you would know for sure what the substance is.

 Doug

 

 	
 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

bw12345(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject: Problem after ground run

Gentlemen

 Since this sight is new to me I have a question. Who is Pete at Shelbyville and how would I get in touch if necessary?



BOB



--- On Sat, 10/24/09, Kayberg(at)aol.com <Kayberg(at)aol.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Kayberg(at)aol.com <Kayberg(at)aol.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Problem after ground run

To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Saturday, October 24, 2009, 3:46 PM



   Sorry, all,  I thought Don was the guy with the problem...but Hilderbrand is in Kansas with the sticking valve.

  

 Please take that into account.

  

 doug koenigsberg

  

  

 In a message dated 10/24/2009 3:36:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Kayberg(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		    In a message dated 10/24/2009 11:36:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, burdon1(at)COMCAST.NET writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Hi Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to stick ? What typically has been seen as the cause of sticking lifters when found on 2200 and 3300's ? Anyone ?

    Thanks, Don Burkholder



	


 

  

  

 Use of autofuel with ethanol prompted some problems.   There was some kind of unknown crud that showed up as a yellow gunk which seemed to gum up the valves and left deposits in the cylinders.   It was bad enough that the lifters stuck and the valves bent.  There was no carbon buildup.

  

 When the engine is cold, at least at first, the lifters dont stick and the engine will run fine.  But when it is warm or hot, you can get the momentary sticking like you can hear on the video.   

  

 I would suggest checking the fuel by removing and dumping the Bing bowl in a clear glass jar, running the fuel pump and letting the fuel in the lines run into another clear jar for a pint or so and then checking your filter (I would replace it, they are cheap).   If you have a gascolater, then dump it as well.    Let the jars set overnite and see what ends up in the bottom.

  

 It is possible to run really rich and get lifter sticking as well....at least I would think so.  I dont know about that.

  

 The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a valve spring compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the valves.   Then you would know for sure what the substance is.

  

 If you are in the early stages of using the engine,  I hope you are checking the CHTs carefully.   

  

 You should take a good look at the fuel before calling Shelbyville.

  

 Doug

 	  Quote: 	
		  



BLOCKQUOTE> 	
	


 

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  [b]



ist" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List

=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com

blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[/b] 	  Quote: 	
		  	


	
 

  	  Quote: 	
		  	
 [quote][b]

mhilderbrand

Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 36

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:03 pm Post subject: Problem after ground run

After taking the valve covers off it does not look like a rocker & pushrod slip. The knocking sound is REALLY prominent about 3" out from the crankcase on the cylinder (using the old screwdriver to the ear trick). My father has a hard time believing a sticking valve would be heard so close to the crankcase.  I am NOT real mechanical so I refer often to my father's suggestion and ideas. He thinks the sound is probably from a messed up piston ring - at least, that is his latest thoughts. 

  

 Another question I have:  IF this requires replacing the piston and honing the cylinder, where would you guys take it?  Is this engine easy enough to disassemble that a seasoned veteran mechanic should be able to perform such a task? Maybe an AP?  And, can this task be performed without taking the engine off the mount?   The local airport owner was telling me that AP's take jugs off certificated engines independently all the time....   Any suggestions?   

  

 Thanks!

 

Michael Hilderbrand

Derby, Kansas

Http://www.kansasflying.com  



 

   From: "Kayberg(at)aol.com" <Kayberg(at)aol.com>

To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 2:46:02 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Problem after ground run



   Sorry, all,  I thought Don was the guy with the problem...but Hilderbrand is in Kansas with the sticking valve.

  

 Please take that into account.

  

 doug koenigsberg

  

  

 In a message dated 10/24/2009 3:36:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Kayberg(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		    In a message dated 10/24/2009 11:36:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, burdon1(at)COMCAST.NET writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Hi Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to stick ? What typically has been seen as the cause of sticking lifters when found on 2200 and 3300's ? Anyone ?

    Thanks, Don Burkholder



	


 

  

  

 Use of autofuel with ethanol prompted some problems.   There was some kind of unknown crud that showed up as a yellow gunk which seemed to gum up the valves and left deposits in the cylinders.   It was bad enough that the lifters stuck and the valves bent.  There was no carbon buildup.

  

 When the engine is cold, at least at first, the lifters dont stick and the engine will run fine.  But when it is warm or hot, you can get the momentary sticking like you can hear on the video.   

  

 I would suggest checking the fuel by removing and dumping the Bing bowl in a clear glass jar, running the fuel pump and letting the fuel in the lines run into another clear jar for a pint or so and then checking your filter (I would replace it, they are cheap).   If you have a gascolater, then dump it as well.    Let the jars set overnite and see what ends up in the bottom.

  

 It is possible to run really rich and get lifter sticking as well....at least I would think so.  I dont know about that.

  

 The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a valve spring compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the valves.   Then you would know for sure what the substance is.

  

 If you are in the early stages of using the engine,  I hope you are checking the CHTs carefully.   

  

 You should take a good look at the fuel before calling Shelbyville.

  

 Doug

 	  Quote: 	
		      ===========  BLOCKQUOTE> 	
	


 

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	
 	  Quote: 	
		  	
  	  Quote: 	
		  	
 

 [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:38 pm Post subject: Problem after ground run

I'd keep it right at home and bring a "seasoned mechanic" over for  

supper and a pretty simple job....unless it's under warranty, and  

that would complicate things.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 802 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs--198 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

On Oct 24, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Michael Hilderbrand wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   After taking the valve covers off it does not look like a rocker &  

 pushrod slip. The knocking sound is REALLY prominent about 3" out  

 from the crankcase on the cylinder (using the old screwdriver to  

 the ear trick). My father has a hard time believing a sticking  

 valve would be heard so close to the crankcase.  I am NOT real  

 mechanical so I refer often to my father's suggestion and ideas. He  

 thinks the sound is probably from a messed up piston ring - at  

 least, that is his latest thoughts.



 Another question I have:  IF this requires replacing the piston and  

 honing the cylinder, where would you guys take it?  Is this engine  

 easy enough to disassemble that a seasoned veteran mechanic should  

 be able to perform such a task? Maybe an AP?  And, can this task be  

 performed without taking the engine off the mount?   The local  

 airport owner was telling me that AP's take jugs off certificated  

 engines independently all the time....   Any suggestions?



 Thanks!



 Michael Hilderbrand

 Derby, Kansas

 Http://www.kansasflying.com

 From: "Kayberg(at)aol.com" <Kayberg(at)aol.com>

 To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 2:46:02 PM

 Subject: Re: Re: Problem after ground run



 Sorry, all,  I thought Don was the guy with the problem...but  

 Hilderbrand is in Kansas with the sticking valve.



 Please take that into account.



 doug koenigsberg

 In a message dated 10/24/2009 3:36:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  

 Kayberg(at)aol.com writes:

 In a message dated 10/24/2009 11:36:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  

 burdon1(at)COMCAST.NET writes:



 Hi Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to  

 stick ? What typically has been seen as the cause of sticking  

 lifters when found on 2200 and 3300's ? Anyone ?

     Thanks, Don Burkholder



 Use of autofuel with ethanol prompted some problems.   There was  

 some kind of unknown crud that showed up as a yellow gunk which  

 seemed to gum up the valves and left deposits in the cylinders.    

 It was bad enough that the lifters stuck and the valves bent.   

 There was no carbon buildup.



 When the engine is cold, at least at first, the lifters dont stick  

 and the engine will run fine.  But when it is warm or hot, you can  

 get the momentary sticking like you can hear on the video.



 I would suggest checking the fuel by removing and dumping the Bing  

 bowl in a clear glass jar, running the fuel pump and letting the  

 fuel in the lines run into another clear jar for a pint or so and  

 then checking your filter (I would replace it, they are cheap).    

 If you have a gascolater, then dump it as well.    Let the jars set  

 overnite and see what ends up in the bottom.



 It is possible to run really rich and get lifter sticking as  

 well....at least I would think so.  I dont know about that.



 The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a  

 valve spring compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the  

 valves.   Then you would know for sure what the substance is.



 If you are in the early stages of using the engine,  I hope you are  

 checking the CHTs carefully.



 You should take a good look at the fuel before calling Shelbyville.



 Doug

    ===========  BLOCKQUOTE>



 ============================================================ _- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 contribution_- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:32 pm Post subject: Problem after ground run

Mike, Well the 3 inch dimension corresponds to the engines 74 mm stroke, but wouldn't a ring problem that makes a sound at the bottom of the stoke also make one at the top when the piston reverses direction again? When you say "not look like a rocker & pushrod slip" does that mean you've tested for rocker arm pushrod clearance all the way through the full cycle of the engine? Have you drained the oil and run a magnet through it looking for iron bits? Taken the oil filter off and pulled it apart to look for debris caught in the filter element? What kind of noise are you getting when you rock the crank shaft back and forth at the "clunk" point? Do you know anyone who has a bore scope to look at the cylinder walls for evidence of damage and the top of the piston to see if there are marks from the valve hitting the piston? Was #6 the only head that exceeded CHT limits?

 I've got a regular medical stethoscope if you want to have a bit better listen to the sounds the engine is making.



 

Rick Girard



On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Michael Hilderbrand <m_hilderbrand(at)sbcglobal.net (m_hilderbrand(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

 [quote]

 After taking the valve covers off it does not look like a rocker & pushrod slip. The knocking sound is REALLY prominent about 3" out from the crankcase on the cylinder (using the old screwdriver to the ear trick). My father has a hard time believing a sticking valve would be heard so close to the crankcase.  I am NOT real mechanical so I refer often to my father's suggestion and ideas. He thinks the sound is probably from a messed up piston ring - at least, that is his latest thoughts. 

   

 Another question I have:  IF this requires replacing the piston and honing the cylinder, where would you guys take it?  Is this engine easy enough to disassemble that a seasoned veteran mechanic should be able to perform such a task? Maybe an AP?  And, can this task be performed without taking the engine off the mount?   The local airport owner was telling me that AP's take jugs off certificated engines independently all the time....   Any suggestions?   

   

 Thanks!

 

Michael Hilderbrand

Derby, Kansas

Http://www.kansasflying.com  



 

   From: "Kayberg(at)aol.com (Kayberg(at)aol.com)" <Kayberg(at)aol.com (Kayberg(at)aol.com)>

To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)

 Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 2:46:02 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Problem after ground run



   Sorry, all,  I thought Don was the guy with the problem...but Hilderbrand is in Kansas with the sticking valve.

  

 Please take that into account.

  

 doug koenigsberg

  

  

 In a message dated 10/24/2009 3:36:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Kayberg(at)aol.com (Kayberg(at)aol.com) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		    In a message dated 10/24/2009 11:36:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, burdon1(at)COMCAST.NET (burdon1(at)COMCAST.NET) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Hi Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to stick ? What typically has been seen as the cause of sticking lifters when found on 2200 and 3300's ? Anyone ?

     Thanks, Don Burkholder



	


 

  

  

 Use of autofuel with ethanol prompted some problems.   There was some kind of unknown crud that showed up as a yellow gunk which seemed to gum up the valves and left deposits in the cylinders.   It was bad enough that the lifters stuck and the valves bent.  There was no carbon buildup.

   

 When the engine is cold, at least at first, the lifters dont stick and the engine will run fine.  But when it is warm or hot, you can get the momentary sticking like you can hear on the video.   

  

 I would suggest checking the fuel by removing and dumping the Bing bowl in a clear glass jar, running the fuel pump and letting the fuel in the lines run into another clear jar for a pint or so and then checking your filter (I would replace it, they are cheap).   If you have a gascolater, then dump it as well.    Let the jars set overnite and see what ends up in the bottom.

   

 It is possible to run really rich and get lifter sticking as well....at least I would think so.  I dont know about that.

  

 The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a valve spring compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the valves.   Then you would know for sure what the substance is.

  

 If you are in the early stages of using the engine,  I hope you are checking the CHTs carefully.   

  

 You should take a good look at the fuel before calling Shelbyville.

  

 Doug

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_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Clive J

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 340
Location: UK

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:49 am Post subject: Problem after ground run

I  took a cylinder off my Jab myself, not rocket science and no more complicated  than a car strip down or a motorcycle cylinder. I just talked it though with a  Jab mechanic to get the tips as to what made it easy. Get your seasoned mechanic  to have a chat with a Jab mechanic, will save a little time.

  

 It takes very little metal loss to give the clonk noise, I was surprised  with what was found after the oil problem on my 3300. The amount of metal  missing from the piston was very small but the noise was very loud.  

  

 For me 'ticking' is valves and clonking is pistons. 

  

 Good luck with the repairs, Regards, Clive



   From:  owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  Michael Hilderbrand

Sent: 25 October 2009 01:01

To:  jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re:  Problem after ground run

 

  

 After taking the valve covers off it does not look like a rocker  & pushrod slip. The knocking sound is REALLY prominent about 3"  out from the crankcase on the cylinder (using the old screwdriver to  the ear trick). My father has a hard time believing a sticking valve  would be heard so close to the crankcase.  I am NOT real  mechanical so I refer often to my father's suggestion and ideas. He  thinks the sound is probably from a messed up piston ring - at least, that  is his latest thoughts. 

  

 Another question I have:  IF this requires replacing the  piston and honing the cylinder, where would you guys take it?  Is this  engine easy enough to disassemble that a seasoned veteran mechanic should be  able to perform such a task? Maybe an AP?  And, can this task be  performed without taking the engine off the mount?   The  local airport owner was telling me that AP's take jugs off certificated  engines independently all the time....   Any suggestions?    

  

 Thanks!

 

Michael Hilderbrand

Derby,  Kansas

Http://www.kansasflying.com  



 

   From: "Kayberg(at)aol.com"  <Kayberg(at)aol.com>

To:  jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 2:46:02  PM

Subject: Re:  Re: Problem after ground run



   Sorry, all,  I thought Don was the guy with the problem...but  Hilderbrand is in Kansas with the sticking valve.

  

 Please take that into account.

  

 doug koenigsberg

  

  

 In a message dated 10/24/2009 3:36:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  Kayberg(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		        In a message dated 10/24/2009 11:36:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,    burdon1(at)COMCAST.NET writes:

    	  Quote: 	
		  

Hi Doug, are you      talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to stick ? What typically      has been seen as the cause of sticking lifters when found on 2200 and 3300's      ? Anyone ?

    Thanks, Don    Burkholder



	


   

    

    

   Use of autofuel with ethanol prompted some problems.      There was some kind of unknown crud that showed up as a yellow gunk which    seemed to gum up the valves and left deposits in the cylinders.   It    was bad enough that the lifters stuck and the valves bent.  There was no    carbon buildup.

    

   When the engine is cold, at least at first, the lifters dont stick and    the engine will run fine.  But when it is warm or hot, you can get the    momentary sticking like you can hear on the video.   

    

   I would suggest checking the fuel by removing and dumping the Bing bowl    in a clear glass jar, running the fuel pump and letting the fuel in the lines    run into another clear jar for a pint or so and then checking your filter (I    would replace it, they are cheap).   If you have a gascolater, then    dump it as well.    Let the jars set overnite and see what ends    up in the bottom.

    

   It is possible to run really rich and get lifter sticking as well....at    least I would think so.  I dont know about that.

    

   The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a valve    spring compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the valves.      Then you would know for sure what the substance is.

    

   If you are in the early stages of using the engine,  I hope you are    checking the CHTs carefully.   

    

   You should take a good look at the fuel before calling Shelbyville.

    

   Doug

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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List

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[/b]

  [quote][b]

wypaul

Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 24

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:29 am Post subject: Re: Problem after ground run

Michael,



It is a simple job but it does require a special wrench to torq up the cylinder which you can buy from Proto for 5 or so bucks.  Talk to Pete first, sounds like it may be warranty work.

_________________
Paul Spackman
Q-2 Jabiru 3300

wypaul

Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 24

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Problem after ground run

The torque adaptor is Proto J 5114 or if you want to pay more Snap On FRDH 141 that is used to torque the cylinder base nut.

_________________
Paul Spackman
Q-2 Jabiru 3300

Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:44 am Post subject: Problem after ground run

In a message dated 10/24/2009 6:57:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  bw12345(at)sbcglobal.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		                               Gentlemen

         Since this sight is new to me I have a question. Who is Pete          at Shelbyville and how would I get in touch if          necessary?



BOB

	


 

  

 Sorry,  Pete Krotje is the main man at US Jabiru and a personal  friend.  They are located in Shelbyville, Tennessee, USA.   They  are the largest seller of Jabiru products....possibly in the world.

  

 You would contact him  as below:

  

 Sales Info: 1-800-JABIRU1 (1-800-522-4781)

Service  & Support: 931-680-2800 | Fax: 931-680-1817 | info(at)usjabiru.com (info(at)usjabiru.com)

  

 Hope that helps.

  

 Doug Koenigsberg

  [quote][b]

Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:56 am Post subject: Problem after ground run

First, I would talk to the US Jabiru guys. Call them tomorrow.

  

 Second, I would do what they suggest, not your local A & P.    The engine is a little jewel, but it is not a Lycoming or a  Continental.   You could easily UPS them the parts if necessary.

  

 Very unlikely it is a piston ring.   They dont make that noise  when they break!

  

 You wont have to take the engine off the mount to fix it.

  

 Doug

  

  

 In a message dated 10/24/2009 9:03:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  m_hilderbrand(at)sbcglobal.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     After taking the valve covers off it does not look like a    rocker & pushrod slip. The knocking sound is REALLY prominent    about 3" out from the crankcase on the cylinder (using the old    screwdriver to the ear trick). My father has a hard time believing a    sticking valve would be heard so close to the crankcase.  I    am NOT real mechanical so I refer often to my father's suggestion and    ideas. He thinks the sound is probably from a messed up piston ring - at    least, that is his latest thoughts. 

    

   Another question I have:  IF this requires replacing the    piston and honing the cylinder, where would you guys take it?  Is    this engine easy enough to disassemble that a seasoned veteran mechanic should    be able to perform such a task? Maybe an AP?  And, can this    task be performed without taking the engine off the mount?   The    local airport owner was telling me that AP's take jugs off certificated    engines independently all the time....   Any    suggestions?   

    

   Thanks!

 

Michael Hilderbrand

Derby,    Kansas

Http://www.kansasflying.com 	


 

  

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