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Matco Brake Problem

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brad(at)mykcwireless.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: Matco Brake Problem

I recently bought a Kolb Mark III Classic.  It has Matco hydraulic 

brakes with toe pedals - the MC-4 master cylinders and the B4 calipers.  

Differential, pilot side only.  I have a problem with having zero 

stopping power.  No amount of pressure on the toe pedals will stop the 

plane, even at slow taxi speed.  It's as if the calipers are not 

squeezing the rotors hard enough.  Here's what I've done so far - 

replaced the master cylinders (brand new), bled the lines, and checked 

the toe pedal geometry.  I can see the calipers moving when I push on 

the pedals, so they're not completely frozen.  An A&P looked at it too, 

and he's stumped.  One thing that's unusual is that the pistons are 

really stiff on the master cylinders, and hardly have any travel.  It's 

really hard to push them down, even with a hand, and I know that's not 

normal.  Definitely not mushy like when there's air in the lines.  I'm 

using the red automatic transmission fluid, which I've read is okay.  

Has anybody encountered a similar problem with their brakes, and what 

did you do about it? I haven't been able to fly my plane yet because of 

this, so I'm hoping that I can find a solution.  Short of buying new 

calipers, I don't know what else to do.  Thanks for any suggestions.

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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:50 pm Post subject: Matco Brake Problem

Brad



Matco brakes work quite well but take a bunch or pressure to activate them. 

The Matco heal brakes that I have work well but take much more pressure than 

I would feel comfortable pressing against the rudder cables as you have to 

do with the toe activators. It seems like one of our members reworked the 

geometry of the toe system to get more hydraulic pressure without stressing 

the rudder cables. Note! Matco also makes larger calipers and dual caliper 

conversions that might resolve your issues.



It also seems like Dennis Souder (Old Kolb engineer and one time owner) just 

talked about this very issue as to why they developed the heal brakes.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

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bill_joe(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:24 pm Post subject: Matco Brake Problem

Hi Brad...



     I had the same problem kinda but I had Travis make a new set of the toe 

pedal to increase the leverage on the master cylinder . Also I called Matco 

and they have a new lining that has a lot more stopping power. I had them 

send me a new set of the lining and with the new pedals Travis built for me 

took care of my break problem. I'm sure Travis has the print I sent him for 

the toe peddle.

     I will take a couple pictures of the peddles in the morning and send 

you. I have a MK1112Xtra912-80hp and the pedals will hold it up to 4500 RPM.

---

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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:04 pm Post subject: Matco Brake Problem

It would be interesting to see what you could read on a pressure gauge.

One point to be made is contact area.  New pads frequently don't  

present enough to give full effect.

If they are working at all, try jacking one axle, applying full pedal  

and hand turning the wheel.

If you get some resistance do some taxi with the brakes on to help  

wear them in.  The rotors on working

brakes will show a track.

BB



On 25, Oct 2009, at 6:38 PM, Brad Zearfoss wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I recently bought a Kolb Mark III Classic.  It has Matco hydraulic  

 brakes with toe pedals - the MC-4 master cylinders and the B4  

 calipers.  Differential, pilot side only.  I have a problem with  

 having zero stopping power.  No amount of pressure on the toe pedals  

 will stop the plane, even at slow taxi speed.  It's as if the  

 calipers are not squeezing the rotors hard enough.  Here's what I've  

 done so far - replaced the master cylinders (brand new), bled the  

 lines, and checked the toe pedal geometry.  I can see the calipers  

 moving when I push on the pedals, so they're not completely frozen.   

 An A&P looked at it too, and he's stumped.  One thing that's unusual  

 is that the pistons are really stiff on the master cylinders, and  

 hardly have any travel.  It's really hard to push them down, even  

 with a hand, and I know that's not normal.  Definitely not mushy  

 like when there's air in the lines.  I'm using the red automatic  

 transmission fluid, which I've read is okay.  Has anybody  

 encountered a similar problem with their brakes, and what did you do  

 about it? I haven't been able to fly my plane yet because of this,  

 so I'm hoping that I can find a solution.  Short of buying new  

 calipers, I don't know what else to do.  Thanks for any suggestions.

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Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:14 am Post subject: Re: Matco Brake Problem

My Matco brake documentation says to use 5606 fluid, not ATF fluid. Not sure what kind of seals and o-rings are in Matco brakes nor if the they are compatible with ATF. I use 5606 per Matco's spec.



Matco also states that you need 2.5 to 1 mechanical advantage on the actuator. If your pedal setup does not give you that, the braking power will be diminished proportionally.

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Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:22 am Post subject: Matco Brake Problem

 	  Quote: 	
		   My Matco brake documentation says to use 5606 fluid, not ATF fluid. Not 

 sure what kind of seals and o-rings are in Matco brakes nor if the they 

 are compatible with ATF. I use 5606 per Matco's spec.

 >
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Thom Riddle


	




Thom/Gang:



Have used ATF with MATCO brakes since day one, 1992.  Since that time have 

gone through three different sets of brakes.  Each set an improvement on the 

previous set.  In fact, I'm still using the same quart of ATF I bought for 

my new Hegar brakes I installed on the FS in 1989.  Works great for me. 

However, if MATCO says 5606 for current model brakes, I'd go with that.



john h

mkIII

Las Vegas, Nevada

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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:26 am Post subject: Matco Brake Problem

My Matco brake documentation says to use 5606 fluid, not ATF fluid. Not sure

what kind of seals and o-rings are in Matco brakes nor if the they are

compatible with ATF. I use 5606 per Matco's spec.



 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


	




The matco paperwork says  "o-ring  BUNA N  "   I have only used what is

specified..   not sure if it will be compatible with atf or not. 



Boyd Young

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JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: Matco Brake Problem

 	  brad(at)mykcwireless.com wrote: 	
		  



One thing that's unusual is that the pistons are 

really stiff on the master cylinders, and hardly have any travel.  It's 

really hard to push them down, even with a hand, and I know that's not 

normal.  



 Thanks for any suggestions. 	




I can almost assure you that this is part of your problem.  If the pistons are not moving fairly easily inside the calipers, you will get very little braking power.  I have had this several times on various braking systems, and it always has resulted in very poor braking power.  Check for corrosion around the rubber ring inside the caliper, it can cause the rubber to be so tight against the piston that it will hardly move.  Also deformed piston can cause this, but corrosion is much more common.



Mike

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"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Bickham

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 170
Location: St. Francisville, LA

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:12 am Post subject: Re: Matco Brake Problem

Brad,



Sorry for the late reply. 



I don't know if this would help but I'll offer.

I have a set of old Matco brakes, axles, & hubs.  I replaced them with the larger axles and brakes when I upgraded my landing gear.  I think I have the same set you are referring to.



If you need them for parts, I'd send them your way.  Need to get them out of shop.  Fair price guarantee!



E-mail direct if interested.



Do not archive

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Thanks too much,

John Bickham
Mark III-C w/ 912UL
St. Francisville, LA

I know many pilots and a few true aviators. There is a distinct difference that I have the greatest respect for.

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