Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

miyer2u(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:58 am Post subject: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation

Dear Kolbers,

I wanted to share my experience of a forced landing that I had last weekend

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:44 am Post subject: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvat

 	  miyer2u(at)yahoo.com wrote: 	
		  Dear Kolbers,

I wanted to share my experience of a forced landing that I had last weekend 	




Did you mean to attach something (a document or link)?  If so, it isn't showing.

_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:47 am Post subject: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvat

I have warned many times in the past on this list against using the cheap, clear fuel tubing in any airplane.  It is very fragile, easily pinched, easily punctured, and prone to failure in a number of ways.    My lawn mower came with better fuel tubing than most people use in their Kolbs...   



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=48298



Those  that continue to use cheap fuel line run a lot of needless risk for nothing.  It is easy to change to quality fuel line, and does not cost much.  I use Aeroquip fuel line in my Kolb, and have also used the expensive $3.50 dollars a foot High Pressure fuel injection line from Napa in other airplanes.  They are both very good.  The cheap stuff from Napa that is about $ 1.50 a foot is not good, pinches and crushes to easily, the fuel line from Advance Auto Parts is even worse.   I do not and would never have any clear, " toy type " fuel tubing anywhere in any of my planes.



Mahesh, you can buy all metal fuel pickup tubes from Kolb which would be better than what you have now.    For those that do not see the entire account of the engine failure, you can read it here.



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=48298



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvat

For those that use the forum, here is Mahesh account that did not show up on the forum:



Dear Kolbers,

I wanted to share my experience of a forced landing that I had last weekend

.

I took my Firestar-2 for some take off and landing practice and some flight

 around the around the valley. I had gone through a complete preflight, run

 up, full tanks of fuel and had three takeoffs and Landing in the pattern. 

On my fourth take off I climbed to pattern altitude and as I was turning cr

osswind, I felt a bump and pretty much thought that it was a Thermal below 

my wing and continued turning down wind. After my turn, the RPM dropped sud

denly from 6200 to 3200 and a chill ran through my spine. I immediately rea

lized that the engine is going to quit! It ran rough and the RPM was oscill

ating up and down. I wanted the prop to keep spinning and not quit, so I im

mediately got my throttle to idle 2300 RPM and just forced the nose down an

d increased airspeed to 68MPH. I made a quick and short turn to base and th

en final and set myself up for landing. When the prop was spinning with min

imum forward thrust, it felt as If I have thrown a drogue chute out.

 I came in nice and made a good three point landing and there was enough po

wer to get me to the taxiway.

I went through a RPM check after parking and as soon as I increased the thr

ottle, I engine completely quit and the prop stood still.

=C2-

I started to trouble shoot and these were my observations:

=C2-



There was no fuel present between the tank pickups to the Diaphragm fuel pu

mp to the carburetor.

The carburetor bowls had almost run dry

=C2-

The was a fuel starvation and hence the engine quit. I started tracing the 

fault and had the following possibilities =93 Failure of the fuel pum

p, or failure of the Primer bulb (Check valves) or after discussion with my

 friend Roger; it could be an air leak in the line.

=C2-

I replaced my primer bulb with a new marine one, but it did not help. When 

I started to pump the primer bulb, it was not pushing the fuel up to the fu

el pump. On further trace, I found that one of the pick up tubes in one of 

the tanks had given way.

=C2-

The problem:

I have two fuel tanks (5 gallons) each. I had modified my pick up, such tha

t I passed a short piece of urethane tubing attached to the fitting and the

n inserted a metal pick up tube that extended right to the bottom of the ta

nk and had the entire arrangement safety wired. The blue urethane fuel line

 being in continuous contact with fuel, became soft and gave way with time 

(2 months only) and the metal pick up dropped to the bottom of the tank in 

flight. Since I have tee,ed the two pickups from both the tanks, the failed

 pick up started to draw in air and stopped fuel flow, resulting in fuel st

arvation.

=C2-

The improvement: 

I modified and reinforced the metal pick by running the =C2=BC=9D ure

thane tube right over it to the end of the tank such that it will never fai

l and provided safety wiring adequately.

=C2-

I also provided a parallel bypass line to the primer bulb with an in line s

hut off valve that I will switch off during priming and start up and turn o

n after start up to bypass the primer bulb. This helps incase the primer bu

lb check valves fail and ensures that there is a constant flow of fuel to t

he engine. It is also recommended in the CPS article. I also ordered for a 

new fuel pump even if I have just 60 hours on it. The rebuild time is 100 h

ours per Rotax.

=C2-

My learning=99s that may be helpful to some of you:

I have limited time on the Kolb (35-40 hrs) and am a novice on this airplan

e, but wanted to share the following:

=C2-



A Kolb no doubt climbs like a rocket, but also falls like a rock with out a

ny power. It has a lot of drag and my FS-2 sinks at almost 800 feet/minute.

 Keep that altitude for its safety in every way. You get that critical time

 to make a decision and go for it.

PractisePractisePractise It helps a lot for prac

ticing those no power landings. In my case I had never practiced a power of

f landing on the Kolb, which I plan to do from now on, but my somehow my pr

ivate pilot training that I had undergone was put to practical test ) an

d it helped!



During your prefight, if the primer bulb does not become hard, then you can

 be=C2-pretty sure that there is an air leak in the system. I used to alw

ays feel that=C2-=C2-there is nothing significant between the tank and 

the primer bulb to the fuel=C2-

pump, but was caught by surprise and understood the flow much better



If you have pick up tubes in your tanks, make it a part of your checklist t

o verify=C2-that it=99s in good shape and will not fail.

=C2-

Thanks for reading through my experience and hope it helps some of you.

=C2-

best regards,

Mahesh Iyer

Phoenix, Oregon

Kolb Firestar 2 =93 Powered by a Rotax 503 DCDI and driven by a three

 blade IVO prop

The joy of Flight Nothing comes closer, it=99s a ro

mance for life!=0A=0A=0A

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:03 pm Post subject: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation

> I have warned many times in the past on this list against using the 

cheap, clear fuel tubing in any airplane.  It is very fragile, easily 

pinched, easily punctured, and prone to failure in a number of ways.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Mike


	


Mike B/Gang:



I have found Gates Premium neoprene fuel line to a good job of delivering 

fuel to my 912ULS.  Never had a problem with it.  Yes, I pay about $1.00 a 

foot for it.



I don't know what the draw to clear plastic fuel line is with ultralighters, 

other than the standard answer, "I need to see my fuel."  



Always been a firm believer is the KISS formula.  Without it I could have 

never made some of the flights my mkIII has taken me on.



john h

mkIII

Nellis AFB, Nevada

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:21 am Post subject: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvat

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  



I don't know what the draw to clear plastic fuel line is with ultralighters, 

other than the standard answer, "I need to see my fuel."  



	




You are very correct John, people parrot this line and have no understanding of how flawed and dangerous their reasoning is.



There is no need to see the fuel going through the line in any vehicle, be it cars, boats, or airplanes.   No certified or LSA airplane in the world has clear fuel line so that you can see the fuel going through it.   It is nothing short of ridiculous to think you need to see fuel going through the lines.



There are those that will say " I need to see the bubbles if there is a leak "...  The best answer there is to have a properly designed fuel system that is pressure fed rather than vacuum drawn.  If you are drawing fuel through a vacuum, then you are asking for vapor lock that will result in engine problems / failure, or complete engine failure due to the slightest leak.  With a pressure fed system and quality fuel line, chances of a leak is about a thousand times less than with clear fuel line, and if you do have a leak, you will see a slight wet place on the line instead of having an engine failure.   Many very smart aircraft designers have been designing fuel systems in airplanes for over 100 years now, and no manufactured aircraft use cheap clear fuel lines.  The risk in using cheap substandard clear fuel line is FAR greater than whatever imagined benefit that ultralight community has come up with.



People definitely imitate lemmings sometimes, things get started in small communities like ultralights, and its monkey see, monkey do...  People just like follow whatever everyone else does without questioning it, even if its leading them off a cliff...  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

George Alexander

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvat

 	  JetPilot wrote: 	
		   



- - - -SNIP- - - -

The risk in using cheap substandard clear fuel line is FAR greater than whatever imagined benefit that ultralight community has come up with.



- - - - SNIP- - - -



Mike 	




"....using cheap, substandard.... fuel line" is risky, whether it is clear, opaque, non-clear, black, yellow, orange, pink, chartreuse or polka-dotted.



Is it OK if I use expensive, high standard, clear line?  Let me know, 'cause I've been using pulse line (throughout my fuel system) for 15+ years.  Change it all out once a year.  Wouldn't want a problem to develop.



My thoughts..... make your own decisions.

_________________
George Alexander
FS II R503
E-LSA N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvat

George,



There is not such thing as clear fuel line that even comes close to the safety and quality of Aeroquip or High Pressure fuel injection line.   The fact that you feel the need to change your fuel line every year is an indication of how substandard the stuff is, it does not matter what you paid for it.   How many cars do you have to change the fuel lines out once a year , How many certified airplanes do you have to replace the fuel lines every year ??   None, because no manufacturer would risk building such a substandard safety item into an item that is sold in the open market.  More importantly, the clear fuel line would not pass any safety standard in either cars or planes.  Even if you do change your line out once a year, the cheap clear toy fuel line is still very fragile, prone to crushing and a number of other things.



I fully support your right to make your own choice in fuel lines.   I hope you keep a close eye on it, keep changing it,  and have no problems.  But most importantly, everyone should have the facts about the disadvantages and dangers of this type of fuel line and make an informed decision instead of just copying what other ultralights do.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:54 pm Post subject: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation

Hey, watch it boy.  Yer talkin' about me.  I have long assumed the  

mantle of cheap and substandard.

Suits me fine.  I'm still solvent and (urp) surviving.

BB

do not archive

On 28, Oct 2009, at 1:17 PM, George Alexander wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 >

 JetPilot wrote:

> - - - -SNIP- - - -

> The risk in using cheap substandard clear fuel line is FAR greater  

> than whatever imagined benefit that ultralight community has come  

> up with.

>

> - - - - SNIP- - - -

>

> Mike

 "....using cheap, substandard.... fuel line" is risky, whether it is  

 clear, opaque, non-clear, black, yellow, orange, pink, chartreuse or  

 polka-dotted.

 Is it OK if I use expensive, high standard, clear line?  Let me  

 know, 'cause I've been using pulse line (throughout my fuel system)  

 for 15+ years.  Change it all out once a year.  Wouldn't want a  

 problem to develop.

 My thoughts..... make your own decisions.

 --------

 George Alexander

 FS II R503  N709FS

 http://gtalexander.home.att.net

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 69863#269863

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:44 pm Post subject: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvation

> There is not such thing as clear fuel line that even comes close to the 

safety and quality of Aeroquip or High Pressure fuel injection line.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Mike


	


Mike B/Gang:

I don't see a requirement for using high priced, high pressure fuel 

injection hose when working with 3 to 5 psi.



There is such a thing as extreme overkill.



john h

mkIII

Furnace Creek, CA

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

George Alexander

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvat

May be futile.  But have to try.  Be kind Matt D.



 	  JetPilot wrote: 	
		  

George,

There is not (sic) such thing as clear fuel line that even comes close to the safety and quality of Aeroquip or High Pressure fuel injection line. 	




As a simple statement, who could quarrel with that?  However, safety and quality are relative to the application.  I am satisfied that the quality of the clear line that I use exceeds the requirements for my application and I feel that it is safe to use on my aircraft.  You may say/think otherwise.  That's your right.    



BTW, in my fuel system, only the inside walls of the fuel line come in contact with the fuel/oil mix.  None of it is submerged.  My tanks are bottom feed.



 	  JetPilot wrote: 	
		  The fact that you feel the need to change your fuel line every year is an indication of how substandard the stuff is, it does not matter what you paid for it. 	




Bad assumption, Mike.  In spite of what you may think of others'  intelligence, if I felt it was substandard, I wouldn't have it on my plane.   



The reason that I change it annually is the same as the reason that I use it in the first place.  It is "clear".  Running fuel/oil mix through it, age/time, sunlight all create discoloration.  Discoloration reduces the "advantage" of being able to see through it.   



Witness a condition that Beauford discovered with his system.  Being able to see the build up of an unknown substance on the inside wall of his fuel line, may have,   repeat,   may have, prevented an engine out.  (See attached photo.) If any of that crud had made its way to the bowl of his single carb, R447, he very likely would have heard only the air rushing over his VGs.

   

I have since seen a similar (not quite as severe) build up in my system.  Beauford and I use different fuel line, use fuel from different sources, we do both use the same 2 stroke oil (as does a large number of the 2 stroke engine operators) and both pre-mix.  The only common denominator for us is storage of our aircraft in very warm (sometimes damned hot) conditions here in SW FL. While it is a guess, the heat may be the source/contributor to the crud.  Heat, fuel additives, etc... who knows. Only know that the crud was there and it was seen through the clear fuel line and would have not been seen with non-clear line.

Hope your storage facility is nice and cool.  Your mean temp in South FL is about 5 deg higher than ours.  

 	  Jet Pilot wrote: 	
		  How many cars do you have to change the fuel lines out once a year , How many certified airplanes do you have to replace the fuel lines every year ??   None, because no manufacturer would risk building such a substandard safety item into an item that is sold in the open market.  More importantly, the clear fuel line would not pass any safety standard in either cars or planes. 	
  



Your analogy to cars or certified airplanes and their applicable standards.  Do cars and certified airplanes have the same criteria for safety/operation standards?  Do all cars and all certified airplanes use the same fuel line?  Are compression checks required on auto engines every year? No? Different standards based on the application maybe?



 	  Jet Pilot wrote: 	
		  Even if you do change your line out once a year, the cheap clear toy fuel line is still very fragile, prone to crushing and a number of other things. 	
  



Admittedly different grades of fuel line are available.  Some I wouldn't put on the aerator of a tank that housed fish that I didn't even like.  But I'm not sure how I can make it any clearer.  I DO NOT USE, nor do I recommend the use of  "cheap clear toy fuel line".   Your inference is that all clear fuel line is "cheap clear toy fuel line."  I believe you to be mistaken and misleading to readers.



 	  Jet Pilot wrote: 	
		  I fully support your right to make your own choice in fuel lines. 	




I appreciate your support of my rights.  



 	  Jet Pilot wrote: 	
		   I hope you keep a close eye on it, keep changing it,  and have no problems.  	




Not to worry.  It is my duty to myself and my family to keep a "close eye on it" (that's why I like clear!), keep changing it (so I can continue to see through it!) and keep it at the no problem level to the best of my ability.



 	  Jet Pilot wrote: 	
		  But most importantly, everyone should have the facts about the disadvantages and dangers of this type of fuel line and make an informed decision instead of just copying what other ultralights do. 	




And as long as there is a multitude of contributors to this list, who are willing to share their experiences/views/etc..... the reader will have to glean "the facts".  With the various views that are presented, I am confident that most people understand that there isn't any one individual who has a corner on the "facts".   Not even if they be ultralighters who bend tubes or jet pilots who overshoot their destination by 150 miles.



I'm done!  Not worth nearly what you paid for it!

fuel_line.jpg

Description:

Fuel line samples

Filesize:

46.37 KB

Viewed:

6967 Time(s)

_________________
George Alexander
FS II R503
E-LSA N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net

John Bickham

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 170
Location: St. Francisville, LA

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:22 am Post subject: Re: Engine quits in Mid flight -Forced Landing- Fuel starvat

Enjoyed that George!



You made some excellent points.



Sure miss your company.

Any chance of you joining us 1st weekend in December at Nauga Field?  Need the rain to quit!



Do not archive

_________________
Thanks too much,

John Bickham
Mark III-C w/ 912UL
St. Francisville, LA

I know many pilots and a few true aviators. There is a distinct difference that I have the greatest respect for.

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum