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Speedy11(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:52 pm Post subject: Road Landing |
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Smokey,
I agree 100%. In fact I have a briefing I give on emergency landings and I always recommend a road - for many reasons, one of which you mentioned. There are very safe ways to accomplish a road landing.
Stan Sutterfield
| Quote: | My first choice for forced landings is a paved road rather than a fie
ld. Reason? Every RV forced landing I have helped clean up was on it's back
, trapping the pilot. Growing up around an AG strip, roads were always high
on our list as "alternate airfields" and used often. |
[quote][b]
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Lee Logan
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:11 pm Post subject: Road Landing |
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When landing on roads, what's the trick to avoiding lines (drop lines, power lines, telephone lines)? They are difficult to see, especially in the shadows of the trees (a commonplace issue here in the Southeast). Coming in at a low angle (3-4 degrees would be typical, I would think), lines would have to be pretty far apart for you not to have to run fairly serious "gauntlet"of them of one sort or another.
Not arguing, just wondering what the "trick" is...
Lee..
On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 3:42 PM, <Speedy11(at)aol.com (Speedy11(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote] Smokey,
I agree 100%. In fact I have a briefing I give on emergency landings and I always recommend a road - for many reasons, one of which you mentioned. There are very safe ways to accomplish a road landing.
Stan Sutterfield
| Quote: | My first choice for forced landings is a paved road rather than a fie
ld. Reason? Every RV forced landing I have helped clean up was on it's back
, trapping the pilot. Growing up around an AG strip, roads were always high
on our list as "alternate airfields" and used often. |
| Quote: |
_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
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[b]
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smokyray(at)rocketmail.co
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:56 pm Post subject: Road Landing |
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Lee,
Growing up around an AG strip the spray pilots always looked for wires, everywhere. The trick on roads is to look for the power poles alongside, there you will find the where the wires cross. On larger roads and interstates, only large high tension lines cross as they are required 50 feet vertical for large vehicle clearance and are marked. Interstates are actually designated as emergency runways and stressed for load bearing in national crisis scenarios, the minimum distance between overpasses is 1 mile, for a reason.
BTW, how's your new Rocket running?
Smokey
HR2
--- On Wed, 11/4/09, Lee Logan <leeloganster(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Lee Logan <leeloganster(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Road Landing
To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 1:08 PM
When landing on roads, what's the trick to avoiding lines (drop lines, power lines, telephone lines)? They are difficult to see, especially in the shadows of the trees (a commonplace issue here in the Southeast). Coming in at a low angle (3-4 degrees would be typical, I would think), lines would have to be pretty far apart for you not to have to run fairly serious "gauntlet"of them of one sort or another.
Not arguing, just wondering what the "trick" is...
Lee...
On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 3:42 PM, <Speedy11(at)aol.com (Speedy11(at)aol.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Smokey,
I agree 100%. In fact I have a briefing I give on emergency landings and I always recommend a road - for many reasons, one of which you mentioned. There are very safe ways to accomplish a road landing.
Stan Sutterfield
| Quote: | My first choice for forced landings is a paved road rather than a fie
ld. Reason? Every RV forced landing I have helped clean up was on it's back
, trapping the pilot. Growing up around an AG strip, roads were always high
on our list as "alternate airfields" and used often. |
| Quote: |
_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
|
_blank rel=nofollow>www.aeroelectric.com
/" target=_blank rel=nofollow>www.buildersbooks.com
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arget=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List
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[quote][b]
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Lee Logan
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:35 am Post subject: Road Landing |
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Smokey: That's pretty much the way I figure it, but as I drive around this area, I see power lines everywhere. Our major north-south highway is I-95 (or Navaid 95, as it is known locally!) is fine but it is very busy. Your chances of getting down unscathed are good, I suspect, but your chances of clearing 95 unscathed are much less. The frontage road is better in that respect and has few powerlines itself. I just don't figure I'll be so lucky as to have an Interstate or frontage road handy when I need one!
My plan has always been to look for the houses on our rural roads and to land beyond one and short of the next, if at all possible. That way, I figure I've got a good starting point for the possibility of a clear landing. I'll have to make a couple of practice passes next time I'm up to see how easy the power lines themselves are to spot from cruising altitude (not hard from 1,000' as I recall but normally you'd be pretty committed by then, I would think). I would really like to be able to pick my spot early in an engine out situation, but I don't know how absolutely practical that is.
My Rocket is running much better. My last flight before I took it down for 2-3 weeks of updates was very good with cylinder temps in the 320-350 range and the oil temp at 190-195. I'm very pleased with that and assuming it will be the same once I get it back in the air, I will quickly finish the rest of my operation/flight testing and call it ready for prime time. I've made arrangements for final painting shortly thereafter, so all is well!
Have a great weekend!
Lee...
[quote][b]
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ernest(at)flmitigation.co
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:53 am Post subject: Road Landing |
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I have a huge problem with high cylinder head temps, what was your method of success in getting yours in range?
Ernest
N540HB
On 11/5/09 8:22 AM, "Lee Logan" <[url=leeloganster(at)gmail.com]leeloganster(at)gmail.com[/url]> wrote:
[quote]Smokey: That's pretty much the way I figure it, but as I drive around this area, I see power lines everywhere. Our major north-south highway is I-95 (or Navaid 95, as it is known locally!) is fine but it is very busy. Your chances of getting down unscathed are good, I suspect, but your chances of clearing 95 unscathed are much less. The frontage road is better in that respect and has few powerlines itself. I just don't figure I'll be so lucky as to have an Interstate or frontage road handy when I need one!
My plan has always been to look for the houses on our rural roads and to land beyond one and short of the next, if at all possible. That way, I figure I've got a good starting point for the possibility of a clear landing. I'll have to make a couple of practice passes next time I'm up to see how easy the power lines themselves are to spot from cruising altitude (not hard from 1,000' as I recall but normally you'd be pretty committed by then, I would think). I would really like to be able to pick my spot early in an engine out situation, but I don't know how absolutely practical that is.
My Rocket is running much better. My last flight before I took it down for 2-3 weeks of updates was very good with cylinder temps in the 320-350 range and the oil temp at 190-195. I'm very pleased with that and assuming it will be the same once I get it back in the air, I will quickly finish the rest of my operation/flight testing and call it ready for prime time. I've made arrangements for final painting shortly thereafter, so all is well!
Have a great weekend!
Lee...
onth --
me AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
="http://www.aeroelectric.com">http://www.aeroelectric.com>
<http://www.buildersbooks.com>
ef="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">http://www.homebuilthelp.com>
://www.matronics.com/contribution
; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
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ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List
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matronics.com
[b]
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Speedy11(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:35 am Post subject: Road Landing |
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Lee-
Smokey nailed it. Next time you're driving a 2 lane, watch for lines crossing the road and you'll notice they cross only where telephone poles are - the poles support the lines. Do the same when you're driving an interstate. Few lines cross them and they are only the large high tension ones - which are easier to ID from a distance.
Actually, an emergency landing on a major highway should be at a higher than normal approach angle. The engine is likely dead and you will need to have a little additional speed for the flare and landing. Also, most highway traffic is moving 70-80 MPH. If that is your normal approach speed, assuming no wind. you'll be descending directly on top of the road vehicles. That's not what you want to do. The better option is to approach at 100 to 110 MPH (depending on wind) into a gap in the traffic (assuming you can't find a clear section of highway). As you pass over the 80 MPH traffic and begin your flare, the drivers will see you and slow down - thus giving you room to slow to a stop.
So, with a dead engine and a high approach speed, the descent angle is going to be much greater than normal. And it is not at optimum glide - but you don't care since you have a landing surface in front of you.
Also, you won't normally care whether or not you're landing into the wind. The reason we takeoff and land into the wind is because our runway lengths are limited. A highway landing offers a much longer surface, so no problem landing with the wind. If fact, it could help you if you're in a Cub and maintaining a 100 MPH to get in front of traffic would be challenging.
Regards,
Stan Sutterfield
Do not archive
| Quote: | When landing on roads, what's the trick to avoiding lines (drop lines, power
lines, telephone lines)? They are difficult to see, especially in the
shadows of the trees (a commonplace issue here in the Southeast). Coming in
at a low angle (3-4 degrees would be typical, I would think), lines would
have to be pretty far apart for you not to have to run fairly serious
"gauntlet"of them of one sort or another. |
[quote][b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List |
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kahuna
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:44 am Post subject: Road Landing |
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Ernest.
What is Huge?
What is High?
What have you done to this point to solve the problem?
With this information we can begin to help you.
There are a hundred things to list to do, We should start with where you are and what you have done.
Mike
do not archive
[img]cid:1__=08BBFCF6DFC585EE8f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]Ernest Hale ---11/05/2009 09:59:18 AM---I have a huge problem with high cylinder head temps, what was your method of success in getting your
[img]cid:2__=08BBFCF6DFC585EE8f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]
From:[img]cid:2__=08BBFCF6DFC585EE8f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]
Ernest Hale <ernest(at)flmitigation.com> [img]cid:2__=08BBFCF6DFC585EE8f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]
To:[img]cid:2__=08BBFCF6DFC585EE8f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]
<rocket-list(at)matronics.com> [img]cid:2__=08BBFCF6DFC585EE8f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]
Date:[img]cid:2__=08BBFCF6DFC585EE8f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]
11/05/2009 09:59 AM [img]cid:2__=08BBFCF6DFC585EE8f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]
Subject:[img]cid:2__=08BBFCF6DFC585EE8f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]
Re: Re: Road Landing [img]cid:2__=08BBFCF6DFC585EE8f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]
Sent by:[img]cid:2__=08BBFCF6DFC585EE8f9e8a93df938(at)us.ibm.com[/img]
owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com
I have a huge problem with high cylinder head temps, what was your method of success in getting yours in range?
Ernest
N540HB
On 11/5/09 8:22 AM, "Lee Logan" <[url=leeloganster(at)gmail.com]leeloganster(at)gmail.com[/url]> wrote:
Smokey: That's pretty much the way I figure it, but as I drive around this area, I see power lines everywhere. Our major north-south highway is I-95 (or Navaid 95, as it is known locally!) is fine but it is very busy. Your chances of getting down unscathed are good, I suspect, but your chances of clearing 95 unscathed are much less. The frontage road is better in that respect and has few powerlines itself. I just don't figure I'll be so lucky as to have an Interstate or frontage road handy when I need one!
My plan has always been to look for the houses on our rural roads and to land beyond one and short of the next, if at all possible. That way, I figure I've got a good starting point for the possibility of a clear landing. I'll have to make a couple of practice passes next time I'm up to see how easy the power lines themselves are to spot from cruising altitude (not hard from 1,000' as I recall but normally you'd be pretty committed by then, I would think). I would really like to be able to pick my spot early in an engine out situation, but I don't know how absolutely practical that is.
My Rocket is running much better. My last flight before I took it down for 2-3 weeks of updates was very good with cylinder temps in the 320-350 range and the oil temp at 190-195. I'm very pleased with that and assuming it will be the same once I get it back in the air, I will quickly finish the rest of my operation/flight testing and call it ready for prime time. I've made arrangements for final painting shortly thereafter, so all is well!
Have a great weekend!
Lee...
onth --
me AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
="http://www.aeroelectric.com">http://www.aeroelectric.com>
<http://www.buildersbooks.com>
ef="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">http://www.homebuilthelp.com>
://www.matronics.com/contribution
; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Email Forum -
ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List
; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
matronics.com
=====================================
com/">[b]www.aeroelectric.com
ildersbooks.com/">[b]www.buildersbooks.com
p.com/">[b]www.homebuilthelp.com
ion">[b]http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=====================================
?Rocket-List">[b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List
=====================================
u>http://forums.matronics.com[/u]
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ernest(at)flmitigation.co
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:06 am Post subject: Road Landing |
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Huge is I am putting 18 gph through my engine at 6,000’ to maintain a CHT of 415 or so. On climb out I can hit 440 in minutes. I have replaced the baffling, reconstructed the bottom of the top cowling to get better flow, placed a lip on the bottom of the engine outlet to promote a suction to help pull air through the engine. We are about to build extensions onto the air inlets in the front of the cowling to hopefully force more air through. I was having a bad time with oil temps earlier and fixed that by adding another oil cooler so now I have 2 of those.
Any help would be appreciated.
Ernest
On 11/5/09 10:41 AM, "Michael W Stewart" <[url=mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com]mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com[/url]> wrote:
| Quote: | Ernest.
What is Huge?
What is High?
What have you done to this point to solve the problem?
With this information we can begin to help you.
There are a hundred things to list to do, We should start with where you are and what you have done.
Mike
do not archive
[img]cid:3340263966_503183[/img]Ernest Hale ---11/05/2009 09:59:18 AM---I have a huge problem with high cylinder head temps, what was your method of success in getting your
[img]cid:3340263966_556477[/img]
From:[img]cid:3340263966_515651[/img]
Ernest Hale <[url=ernest(at)flmitigation.com]ernest(at)flmitigation.com[/url]>
[img]cid:3340263966_511953[/img]
To:[img]cid:3340263966_566749[/img]
<[url=rocket-list(at)matronics.com]rocket-list(at)matronics.com[/url]>
[img]cid:3340263966_531526[/img]
Date:[img]cid:3340263966_531433[/img]
11/05/2009 09:59 AM
[img]cid:3340263966_537281[/img]
Subject:[img]cid:3340263966_524200[/img]
Re: Re: Road Landing
[img]cid:3340263966_548938[/img]
Sent by:[img]cid:3340263966_563019[/img]
[url=owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com]owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url]
I have a huge problem with high cylinder head temps, what was your method of success in getting yours in range?
Ernest
N540HB
On 11/5/09 8:22 AM, "Lee Logan" <[url=leeloganster(at)gmail.com]leeloganster(at)gmail.com[/url] <[url=leeloganster(at)gmail.com]leeloganster(at)gmail.com[/url]> > wrote:
Smokey: That's pretty much the way I figure it, but as I drive around this area, I see power lines everywhere. Our major north-south highway is I-95 (or Navaid 95, as it is known locally!) is fine but it is very busy. Your chances of getting down unscathed are good, I suspect, but your chances of clearing 95 unscathed are much less. The frontage road is better in that respect and has few powerlines itself. I just don't figure I'll be so lucky as to have an Interstate or frontage road handy when I need one!
My plan has always been to look for the houses on our rural roads and to land beyond one and short of the next, if at all possible. That way, I figure I've got a good starting point for the possibility of a clear landing. I'll have to make a couple of practice passes next time I'm up to see how easy the power lines themselves are to spot from cruising altitude (not hard from 1,000' as I recall but normally you'd be pretty committed by then, I would think). I would really like to be able to pick my spot early in an engine out situation, but I don't know how absolutely practical that is.
My Rocket is running much better. My last flight before I took it down for 2-3 weeks of updates was very good with cylinder temps in the 320-350 range and the oil temp at 190-195. I'm very pleased with that and assuming it will be the same once I get it back in the air, I will quickly finish the rest of my operation/flight testing and call it ready for prime time. I've made arrangements for final painting shortly thereafter, so all is well!
Have a great weekend!
Lee...
onth --
me AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
="http://www.aeroelectric.com">http://www.aeroelectric.com>
<http://www.buildersbooks.com <http://www.buildersbooks.com/> >
ef="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">http://www.homebuilthelp.com>
://www.matronics.com/contribution
; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Email Forum -
ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List
; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
matronics.com
=====================================
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ildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List>
p.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List>
ion">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List>
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smokyray(at)rocketmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:54 pm Post subject: Road Landing |
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Awesome! Come see me here at the Swamp sometime!
Smokey
HR2(at)FD33
--- On Thu, 11/5/09, Lee Logan <leeloganster(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Lee Logan <leeloganster(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Road Landing
To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 5:22 AM
Smokey: That's pretty much the way I figure it, but as I drive around this area, I see power lines everywhere. Our major north-south highway is I-95 (or Navaid 95, as it is known locally!) is fine but it is very busy. Your chances of getting down unscathed are good, I suspect, but your chances of clearing 95 unscathed are much less. The frontage road is better in that respect and has few powerlines itself. I just don't figure I'll be so lucky as to have an Interstate or frontage road handy when I need one!
My plan has always been to look for the houses on our rural roads and to land beyond one and short of the next, if at all possible. That way, I figure I've got a good starting point for the possibility of a clear landing. I'll have to make a couple of practice passes next time I'm up to see how easy the power lines themselves are to spot from cruising altitude (not hard from 1,000' as I recall but normally you'd be pretty committed by then, I would think). I would really like to be able to pick my spot early in an engine out situation, but I don't know how absolutely practical that is.
My Rocket is running much better. My last flight before I took it down for 2-3 weeks of updates was very good with cylinder temps in the 320-350 range and the oil temp at 190-195. I'm very pleased with that and assuming it will be the same once I get it back in the air, I will quickly finish the rest of my operation/flight testing and call it ready for prime time. I've made arrangements for final painting shortly thereafter, so all is well!
Have a great weekend!
Lee...
| Quote: | www.aeroelectric.com * HomebuiltHELP http://www.matronics.coank" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.mat"nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://fo======================
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Lee Logan
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:18 pm Post subject: Road Landing |
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Ernest (Sorry this is so long, but maybe it will help and will be worth your time to read it): I believe it is a settled fact that Rockets have more than enough inlet and exit area to cool just fine. If you have a good cooler, good baffling, smooth inlets, an adequate outlet, and no engine/oil/magneto/sparkplug/FI issues---it will (or can be made to) run cool, if it is properly broken in. In my case, I used the RV-10 baffling kit which was a good start but installed "stock" wasn't just right for my engine.
I started with 400+ cylinder head temps and 240+ oil. So, I created a systematic plan to go though the cooling system an item at a time. Developed a "root cause" analysis and stuck with it. I learned not to take anything for granted and question everything. The cooling system on any aircraft engine is truly a "system", everything is interrelated. I got countless recommendations from the usual suspects at the airport and all the ideas were good---the invariable problem with them was that they didn't know what was wrong with MY airplane any more than I did. "Check your timing, my uncle did and it fixed his problem", "You've got fouled plugs, my cousin checked his when his engine ran hot and sure enough, 3 of them were fouled", etc. etc. I heard that constantly. If anyone had ever actually diagnosed my airplane to a real-world root cause, the solution would have been obvious. Solutions are easy, it's figuring out what's wrong that is hard---and here is the major pain in all this: Unless you find an obvious smoking gun, you may have to do like I did---just keep modifying and verifying until the temps go down. Change things one at a time; whatever doesn't improve things, change it back.
I went through the vernatherm, the cooler, the connections, the oil itself, the filter, the pump, etc. I swapped vernatherms, tested vernatherms, honed the vernatherm seat, even flew it with a blanked off vernatherm (temp went up). I flipped the cooler (to eliminate air pockets), verified the oil lines were connected to the right openings in the accessory case, tested both oil temp gages, tested both oil pressure gages, flow tested the (brand new Stewart Warner) cooler and lines, drained the oil to verify the right amount was on board, swapped oil filters, used a laser temp gage to verify consistent oil temps throughout the engine to "prove" I had proper engine-wide flow (sump, hoses, front, back, sides, top and bottom of the cooler, cylinder heads, barrels, crankcase, accessory case) etc. Over time, I decided it was not the oil system.
Went through engine baffles in detail and sealed everything. No leak is too small to fill with RTV. CHT's dropped 10 degrees; reprofiled upper cowl ramps, temps dropped 5 degrees. Cut down the baffle plates in front of cylinders 1 and 2 incrementally, and their temps went down 3-5 degrees each time. Ended up with no baffles in front of 1 and 2 above the inlet ramps. Incrementally removed trailing edge of aft lower cowl (the cowling inlet opening/exit opening areas in effect, "throttle" the airflow through the cowling). Hint: The air going through cowling does not heat up very much in the process of cooling the engine (8-10 degrees, I'm told), it's FLOW that makes the system work. Oil temp came down along with these changes but not as fast. Sometimes very modest changes to the baffles (sealing, trimming) and the exit/outlet size, made large differences to the temps I saw. The oil temps came down too with the plummeting CHT's but still stayed way too high for me.
Decided the oil cooler wasn't getting its share of the flow. My cooler was fed by a 4" opening in the right aft baffle feeding through a smooth silicon rubber hose. Added small baffles to channel air into the oil cooler opening (temps dropped 5 degrees), added 3" under-cowl hose to route air from left cowling inlet direct to the cooler (no effect/removed it). Removed baffle elements directly in front of the cylinder barrels (the baffles in front of the cylinder heads were already long gone). Oil temps went up. Added "flow" baffles in front of barrells angled back toward rear (instead of the vertical ones that came with the RV-10 baffle kit). Oil temps back down slightly but still high.
Decided that the 4" oil cooler opening was not big enough. Fabricated and installed a full cooler sized opening and air path. This took the oil cooler inlet area from just over 12 sq. in. to 24. I figured this was the "big fix" the oil system needed to finally fall into line with the cylinders. Didn't work; no change in oil temps but cylinder temps went back up (marginally). Fabricated and installed a plenum on the back side of the oil cooler feeding a 4" hose routed down to the lower cowl outlet. Theory was that backflow/backpressure in the lower cowling was inhibiting flow through the cooler. Plan was to go full size with an all new plenum and outlet if there was any improvement at all. There wasn't any.
What the heck? So... I went through the engine: Changed timing down by 5 degrees; whole system got hotter and power seemed "off". Changed it back. Pulled all the plugs (they were fine); compression checked fine.
Okay. If the engine is good and the oil system is good and the inlets and outlet are reasonably close, the cylinder head temps are (now) low, but the oil temp is still above 210 in cruise (at least it is down from the original 240+), what does that leave? This cowling and oil cooler combination is working fine on other Rockets with smaller oil cooler inlets. Decided I would reinstate my flight test program and "live" with the 210 degree oil temp. OAT's had been highish all summer (80 degrees plus, at altitude). My DAR buddy was convinced that the engine was already broken in and running as cool as it was going to run in and of itself. I wasn't so sure. Decided to try one more thing before continuing the flight test program. I cut a small NACA scoop in the lower cowl centerline about 2/3 of the way aft of the fuel injection inlet to the trailing edge of the cowl. It didn't go anywhere, just brought additional air in from the outside and exhausted it immediately out of the lower cowl a few inches in front of the lower trailing edge lip. The theory was that that little "tornado" of air would entrain the slow moving air in the lower cowl and facilitate it in moving more rapidly to the cowling exit. Flew the airplane and bingo! The oil temp dropped to 190 on both gages (I have two independent oil temp and pressure gages). BUT: OAT was down to 45 degrees that day. Did the NACA scoop really work that well, did the engine just break in, or was the OAT effect that dramatic? I only got to fly it once like this before business trips intervened.
In the meantime I had to pull my engine monitor and ship it back for recalibration (unrelated to my cooling problems). Down for three weeks. Finally flew it today for the second time since the NACA scoop was installed. OAT up to 58, oil temp down to 185! What finally did the trick? I don't know yet but I will keep you informed. The airport closes tomorrow for 2-3 weeks for resurfacing. I moved my Rocket to a nearby field though so I can continue my test flights. First up: Seal the NACA scoop and see what happens. I will do that Saturday. I'm hoping for a couple of hotter days, so I can gage a broader range of OAT effects. Could be that my engine in fact just broke in and that was the "remainder" of the problem all along; we'll know in a few days.
Honest, sorry for the long post but I wanted to get this all straight in my own mind too. Hope those who are facing the same problems will benefit too.
Regards,
Lee...
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ernest(at)flmitigation.co
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:41 am Post subject: Road Landing |
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Great information, thanks for all of the details. We are test flying some modifications today and I will post this weekend to let everyone know what we did and how it worked.
Ernest
On 11/5/09 11:18 PM, "Lee Logan" <[url=leeloganster(at)gmail.com]leeloganster(at)gmail.com[/url]> wrote:
[quote]Ernest (Sorry this is so long, but maybe it will help and will be worth your time to read it): I believe it is a settled fact that Rockets have more than enough inlet and exit area to cool just fine. If you have a good cooler, good baffling, smooth inlets, an adequate outlet, and no engine/oil/magneto/sparkplug/FI issues---it will (or can be made to) run cool, if it is properly broken in. In my case, I used the RV-10 baffling kit which was a good start but installed "stock" wasn't just right for my engine.
I started with 400+ cylinder head temps and 240+ oil. So, I created a systematic plan to go though the cooling system an item at a time. Developed a "root cause" analysis and stuck with it. I learned not to take anything for granted and question everything. The cooling system on any aircraft engine is truly a "system", everything is interrelated. I got countless recommendations from the usual suspects at the airport and all the ideas were good---the invariable problem with them was that they didn't know what was wrong with MY airplane any more than I did. "Check your timing, my uncle did and it fixed his problem", "You've got fouled plugs, my cousin checked his when his engine ran hot and sure enough, 3 of them were fouled", etc. etc. I heard that constantly. If anyone had ever actually diagnosed my airplane to a real-world root cause, the solution would have been obvious. Solutions are easy, it's figuring out what's wrong that is hard---and here is the major pain in all this: Unless you find an obvious smoking gun, you may have to do like I did---just keep modifying and verifying until the temps go down. Change things one at a time; whatever doesn't improve things, change it back.
I went through the vernatherm, the cooler, the connections, the oil itself, the filter, the pump, etc. I swapped vernatherms, tested vernatherms, honed the vernatherm seat, even flew it with a blanked off vernatherm (temp went up). I flipped the cooler (to eliminate air pockets), verified the oil lines were connected to the right openings in the accessory case, tested both oil temp gages, tested both oil pressure gages, flow tested the (brand new Stewart Warner) cooler and lines, drained the oil to verify the right amount was on board, swapped oil filters, used a laser temp gage to verify consistent oil temps throughout the engine to "prove" I had proper engine-wide flow (sump, hoses, front, back, sides, top and bottom of the cooler, cylinder heads, barrels, crankcase, accessory case) etc. Over time, I decided it was not the oil system.
Went through engine baffles in detail and sealed everything. No leak is too small to fill with RTV. CHT's dropped 10 degrees; reprofiled upper cowl ramps, temps dropped 5 degrees. Cut down the baffle plates in front of cylinders 1 and 2 incrementally, and their temps went down 3-5 degrees each time. Ended up with no baffles in front of 1 and 2 above the inlet ramps. Incrementally removed trailing edge of aft lower cowl (the cowling inlet opening/exit opening areas in effect, "throttle" the airflow through the cowling). Hint: The air going through cowling does not heat up very much in the process of cooling the engine (8-10 degrees, I'm told), it's FLOW that makes the system work. Oil temp came down along with these changes but not as fast. Sometimes very modest changes to the baffles (sealing, trimming) and the exit/outlet size, made large differences to the temps I saw. The oil temps came down too with the plummeting CHT's but still stayed way too high for me.
Decided the oil cooler wasn't getting its share of the flow. My cooler was fed by a 4" opening in the right aft baffle feeding through a smooth silicon rubber hose. Added small baffles to channel air into the oil cooler opening (temps dropped 5 degrees), added 3" under-cowl hose to route air from left cowling inlet direct to the cooler (no effect/removed it). Removed baffle elements directly in front of the cylinder barrels (the baffles in front of the cylinder heads were already long gone). Oil temps went up. Added "flow" baffles in front of barrells angled back toward rear (instead of the vertical ones that came with the RV-10 baffle kit). Oil temps back down slightly but still high.
Decided that the 4" oil cooler opening was not big enough. Fabricated and installed a full cooler sized opening and air path. This took the oil cooler inlet area from just over 12 sq. in. to 24. I figured this was the "big fix" the oil system needed to finally fall into line with the cylinders. Didn't work; no change in oil temps but cylinder temps went back up (marginally). Fabricated and installed a plenum on the back side of the oil cooler feeding a 4" hose routed down to the lower cowl outlet. Theory was that backflow/backpressure in the lower cowling was inhibiting flow through the cooler. Plan was to go full size with an all new plenum and outlet if there was any improvement at all. There wasn't any.
What the heck? So... I went through the engine: Changed timing down by 5 degrees; whole system got hotter and power seemed "off". Changed it back. Pulled all the plugs (they were fine); compression checked fine.
Okay. If the engine is good and the oil system is good and the inlets and outlet are reasonably close, the cylinder head temps are (now) low, but the oil temp is still above 210 in cruise (at least it is down from the original 240+), what does that leave? This cowling and oil cooler combination is working fine on other Rockets with smaller oil cooler inlets. Decided I would reinstate my flight test program and "live" with the 210 degree oil temp. OAT's had been highish all summer (80 degrees plus, at altitude). My DAR buddy was convinced that the engine was already broken in and running as cool as it was going to run in and of itself. I wasn't so sure. Decided to try one more thing before continuing the flight test program. I cut a small NACA scoop in the lower cowl centerline about 2/3 of the way aft of the fuel injection inlet to the trailing edge of the cowl. It didn't go anywhere, just brought additional air in from the outside and exhausted it immediately out of the lower cowl a few inches in front of the lower trailing edge lip. The theory was that that little "tornado" of air would entrain the slow moving air in the lower cowl and facilitate it in moving more rapidly to the cowling exit. Flew the airplane and bingo! The oil temp dropped to 190 on both gages (I have two independent oil temp and pressure gages). BUT: OAT was down to 45 degrees that day. Did the NACA scoop really work that well, did the engine just break in, or was the OAT effect that dramatic? I only got to fly it once like this before business trips intervened.
In the meantime I had to pull my engine monitor and ship it back for recalibration (unrelated to my cooling problems). Down for three weeks. Finally flew it today for the second time since the NACA scoop was installed. OAT up to 58, oil temp down to 185! What finally did the trick? I don't know yet but I will keep you informed. The airport closes tomorrow for 2-3 weeks for resurfacing. I moved my Rocket to a nearby field though so I can continue my test flights. First up: Seal the NACA scoop and see what happens. I will do that Saturday. I'm hoping for a couple of hotter days, so I can gage a broader range of OAT effects. Could be that my engine in fact just broke in and that was the "remainder" of the problem all along; we'll know in a few days.
Honest, sorry for the long post but I wanted to get this all straight in my own mind too. Hope those who are facing the same problems will benefit too.
Regards,
Lee...
onth --
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John Bolding
Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:17 am Post subject: Road Landing |
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Not a Rocket but pretty close so I'll throw my nickel in the ring.
Had an engine out in my RV3 several yrs ago, was in the pattern but due to altitude, wind, runway configuration ect decided to use the County road that runs next to the Airpark (54T) No traffic so was only concerned with powerlines as I got low. Had decided that two things were NOT going to happen, no stalling allowed and no running into any powerlines. As I got close to the road on final discovered 6 sets of wires running across the road in my path, altitude and speed allowed me to overfly 5 of them , as I approached the last set made the decision to fly over #5 and under #6. Prolly could have overflown #6 too but speed/altitude were was depleting. Remembered the 2 rules vividly.
Nice plan but the devil is in the details, plenty of clearance on the wires but flew the plane into the road, folded the gear up to the point that the wheels dented the wing tanks, slid to a stop, hopped out (expecting a fire) before the plane stopped. no fire, tanks intact but dented.
Half a dozen spectators stopped quickly, one of them took me to my house 2 blocks away where I got my truck and boat trailer, 10-12 of us lifted the plane onto the trailer and I had it locked up in my hangar 20 min after touchdown, no TV, no newspaper, sheriff, FAA etc. WHEW !!
I had flown the RV about 500 hrs and had practiced engine outs many times with an idling engine.
There is a BIG difference between idling and engine stopped in sink rate. BIG difference.
Had a sore butt for a month and the seat belt bruises were world class but the rest was just aluminum distress which is easier to fix than compressed vertebrae. Lucky that day !
Still don't understand why I flew it into the road, have done a couple hundred of beach, off airport landings in the RV prior to that and was comfortable (maybe too comfortable) in the airplane.
John
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Speedy11(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:54 pm Post subject: Road Landing |
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Great story.
Nice job getting the airplane tucked away so quickly!
Stan Sutterfield
Do not archive
| Quote: | Not a Rocket but pretty close so I'll throw my nickel in the ring.
Had an engine out in my RV3 several yrs ago, was in the pattern but due
to altitude, wind, runway configuration ect decided to use the County
road that runs next to the Airpark (54T) No traffic so was only
concerned with powerlines as I got low. Had decided that two things were
NOT going to happen, no stalling allowed and no running into any
powerlines. As I got close to the road on final discovered 6 sets of
wires running across the road in my path, altitude and speed allowed me
to overfly 5 of them , as I approached the last set made the decision to
fly over #5 and under #6. Prolly could have overflown #6 too but
speed/altitude were was depleting. Remembered the 2 rules vividly.
Nice plan but the devil is in the details, plenty of clearance on the
wires but flew the plane into the road, folded the gear up to the point
that the wheels dented the wing tanks, slid to a stop, hopped out
(expecting a fire) before the plane stopped. no fire, tanks intact but
dented.
Half a dozen spectators stopped quickly, one of them took me to my
house 2 blocks away where I got my truck and boat trailer, 10-12 of us
lifted the plane onto the trailer and I had it locked up in my hangar 20
min after touchdown, no TV, no newspaper, sheriff, FAA etc. WHEW !!
I had flown the RV about 500 hrs and had practiced engine outs many
times with an idling engine.
There is a BIG difference between idling and engine stopped in sink
rate. BIG difference.
Had a sore butt for a month and the seat belt bruises were world class
but the rest was just aluminum distress which is easier to fix than
compressed vertebrae. Lucky that day !
Still don't understand why I flew it into the road, have done a couple
hundred of beach, off airport landings in the RV prior to that and was
comfortable (maybe too comfortable) in the airplane.
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