Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - 601XL down in Arkansas

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

601XL down in Arkansas

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith601-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

dougsire

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 37

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:39 am Post subject: 601XL down in Arkansas

A 601XL crashed in north central Arkansas yesterday, http://diamondpilots.blogspot.com/2009/11/plane-crash-in-fulton-county-arkansas.html.   Can anyone get to the crash site to get photos?   It could take a long time to get anything via NTSB.   This seems to have some of the characteristics of an in-flight breakup.   There is not much impact damage on the ground, it landed upside down, and the wreckage is very mangled.

_________________
Doug Sire 601XL
Do Not Archive

klondike(at)megalink.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject: 601XL down in Arkansas

Any reports on where the wings were located in relationship to the fuselage?



Fritz--- do not archive

---

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:52 pm Post subject: 601XL down in Arkansas

I looked at the photo posted by the newspaper, and saw a couple of 

things that might be interesting:



1.  There didn't seem to be any fire.  That is good news for accident 

cause determination.

2.  I didn't see any wings in the picture.  I did see what looks like 

the tip of the horizontal stabilizer.

3.  It looks like there might be a sizeable radiator near the nose 

gear.  So it probably has a water cooled engine.



I know this is not much, but it is all I could get from the 

photo.  The police report says there was only one person in the 

plane, but I don't consider this reliable information.  If I 

understood the latest information available it seems like all the 

wing separations happened with two people in the plane.



I'm sure the accident investigation folks will have a lot more good 

information for us in a few days.



Paul

XL awaiting engineering changes.

do not archive

At 12:21 PM 11/7/2009, you wrote:

[quote]



Any reports on where the wings were located in relationship to the fuselage?



Fritz--- do not archive

---

afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:54 pm Post subject: 601XL down in Arkansas

Let's worry more about getting pictures and if the plane did or didn't have 2 people in the plane than the fact someone died...... Geez this list is getting sick.

 

 

 --

Davcoberly(at)wmconnect.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:55 pm Post subject: 601XL down in Arkansas

According to Internet search said it was 71 yr old man from IL they may be going just by registration N538CJ  not by who was flying --don't even know if this is correct for sure I hate to even post what I read not verified shows to be 2007 601XL / Jabiru 3300 

David Coberly    

 

     

 

 

     

  [quote][b]

Davcoberly(at)wmconnect.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject: 601XL down in Arkansas

Forget what I said I can't even find it again it may not even have been this accident. David [quote][b]

klondike(at)megalink.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:47 pm Post subject: 601XL down in Arkansas

Hey, you guys are the ones that want to keep on fly-in them--- there is  nothing wrong with asking some questions.  This happen every time there is  an accident-- a pissing contest gets started on this site.  Last time one  of the "elete" on this site ran out of gas, got killed and others got flamed for  "asking questions"

 do not archive

 Fritz

 [quote]   ---

Davcoberly(at)wmconnect.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: 601XL down in Arkansas

Here's what I saw on Internet search. 

 

 



UPDATE: IL man identified as victim in Fulton Co. airplane crash  

 



By: Debby Stanuch 

Print 

[url=javascript:void(0)]ShareThis[/url] 

 

     An investigation of an airplane crash in Fulton county that claimed the life of an Illinois man is currently underway, according to the Arkansas State Police.   71 year old Charles Cummings of North Aurora was killed when the single engine Zenith Aircraft he was piloting crashed in a field east of Salem in the Agnos community.   Arkansas State Trooper Daniel Busch says Cummings was alone in the aircraft.   The Federal Aviation Association and National Transportation Safety Board are conducting  

 

 

   [quote][b]

lwhitlow

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Valparaiso Indiana

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: 601XL down in Arkansas

I think I saw the pic you are referring to Paul



What you described as a radiator looks like my oil cooler on the Jabriu 3300. I can see the brackets and what looks like a piece of the rubber baffle strip that joins up with the hole in the cowl. I just took mine off the other day to work on the cowl.



If it is a Jabriu  then this cannot be an AMD plane. They all have O-200's



Larry Whitlow

 	  psm(at)att.net wrote: 	
		  I looked at the photo posted by the newspaper, and saw a couple of 

things that might be interesting:



1.  There didn't seem to be any fire.  That is good news for accident 

cause determination.

2.  I didn't see any wings in the picture.  I did see what looks like 

the tip of the horizontal stabilizer.

3.  It looks like there might be a sizeable radiator near the nose 

gear.  So it probably has a water cooled engine.



I know this is not much, but it is all I could get from the 

photo.  The police report says there was only one person in the 

plane, but I don't consider this reliable information.  If I 

understood the latest information available it seems like all the 

wing separations happened with two people in the plane.



I'm sure the accident investigation folks will have a lot more good 

information for us in a few days.



Paul

XL awaiting engineering changes.

do not archive

At 12:21 PM 11/7/2009, you wrote:

Any reports on where the wings were located in relationship to the fuselage?



Fritz--- do not archive

---

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:56 am Post subject: 601XL down in Arkansas

The pilot has been identified in news articles as Charles Cummings of  

North Aurora, IL. In that case this is probably the accident airplane:

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=538CJ

An E-AB with a Jabiru 3300.



On Nov 9, 2009, at 1:00 AM, lwhitlow wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I think I saw the pic you are referring to Paul



 What you described as a radiator looks like my oil cooler on the  

 Jabriu 3300. I can see the brackets and what looks like a piece of  

 the rubber baffle strip that joins up with the hole in the cowl. I  

 just took mine off the other day to work on the cowl.



 If it is a Jabriu  then this cannot be an AMD plane. They all have  

 O-200's



 Larry Whitlow


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

swater6

Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 52
Location: Minnesota-KMIC/KANE

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: 601XL down in Arkansas-NTSB preliminary

FYI-



http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20091107X34009&key=1



NTSB Identification: CEN10FA042

14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation

Accident occurred Friday, November 06, 2009 in Agnos, AR

Aircraft: ZENITH AIRCRAFT CO ZODIAC 601, registration: N538CJ

Injuries: 1 Fatal.



This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.



On November 6, 2009, approximately 1100 central standard time, a Zenith Aircraft Company Zodiac 601XL, N538CJ, experimental light sport airplane, was destroyed when it impacted terrain, following an in-flight breakup 1.5 miles south of Agnos, Arkansas. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident. The personal flight was being conducted under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 without a flight plan. The sport pilot was fatally injured. The cross-country flight departed Sharp County Regional Airport (KCVK), Ash Flat, Arkansas, approximately 0930.



According to the Arkansas State Police, the pilot departed KCVK approximately 0930 and was en route, either to Flippin or Mountain View, Arkansas, with the intention of returning to KCVK no later than 1200. A local rancher located the wreckage in a field approximately 1230.



The debris field was scattered over 600 feet on a magnetic bearing of 35 degrees. The right wing assembly initiated the debris field, coming to rest in a pond. The left wing assembly came to rest approximately 200 feet from the right wing. The left wing spar, left wing fuel tank, various cockpit items, and personal effects were located in the debris field. The fuselage, empennage, engine, and propeller assembly came to rest, inverted, approximately 600 feet from the right wing. There were no ground scars identified between the right wing and the main wreckage that could be associated with the left or right wing, empennage, or fuselage.



The wreckage was recovered and relocated to a facility in Clinton, Arkansas, for further examination.

_________________
601 XL kit N596SW reserved
Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage

www.scottwaters.com

Flylikeabird

Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Posts: 1

Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:44 am Post subject:

Hello.

Last edited by Flylikeabird on Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:31 am Post subject: 601XL down in Arkansas

Hi Dustin,

My condolences for your loss.  The recent focus on the 601XL this past 

year or more has been over the 6 aircraft that seem to have lost their 

wings in flight.

The first assumption was that there was flutter. This was examined and 

tested with sufficient means to determine that it was not likely to have 

been flutter. Of

the several hundred XLs, only 2 or 3 have reported the possibility of 

flutter in flight. The recent recommendations that the XL be grounded 

until a resolution

be found has resulted in a precautionary retrofit kit to strengthen the 

center spar, attach  points and wings. The kit is being produced at this 

time.



It is also possible that, as you commented, your grandfather may have 

suffered a heart attack and pushed the controls forward enough to over 

stress the wing

attach points and leave the wings a considerable distance behind point 

of impact. At 120 mph, things occur quickly and parts could have been 

strewn a hundred yards.

About 12 people have died in similar circumstances so far. I believe the 

Zenith is doing as much as can be done at this time. They will 

eventually be able to come to a conclusion as to the real cause. Because 

they do not have deep pockets, I would suspect this may or not impact 

their ability to stay in business long term.



I would suggest you permit enough time to pass to find the real reason 

for your grandfather's accident and then decide what's respectfully 

appropriate for his untimely passing.



Larry McFarland

601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



do not archive

dustinheit wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hello All,



 I have noticed all of these posts are in regard to the 601XL that crashed in Fulton County Arkansas. The man in the plane, Charles Cummings, is my grandfather. I know the National Safety Transportation Board had recommended grounding the 601XL several times before my grandfather's crash and never did anything about it until after my grandfather had died in the accident. The two wings of the plane were peeled off by "flutter" in mid-air, and he crashed in a field. I went to the crash site to get an idea of what might have caused the accident. I originally thought my grandpa had a heart attack, hit the wheel, and pushed down on it causing a downward crash. However, the wings were found far away from the crash, one in a pond nearby, and the other several hundred feet behind the main compartment. There was only a pit in the ground of where the crash occurred, no ground marks... like that of what I would have expected from an emergency landing. Not only did the FAA neglect to gro!

  und this type of aircraft, but the engineer of the aircraft keeps saying to everyone that it is fine to fly, although the wings causes "flutter" and rips the damn wings off the plane in mid-air.  I am very sad because of this event, and I miss him very much. He raised me from childhood. Can anyone give me any advice on what I should do to prevent this fatal injury to other pilots?  My email is dustinheit(at)aol.com   Please contact me if you have any advice. He loved to fly. God Bless him and may God welcome him into His arms. 



 Dustin Cummings Heitschmidt





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 78404#278404

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:11 am Post subject: 601XL down in Arkansas

I'm sorry for your loss, Dustin.

Not much will be known about what caused the accident that resulted in your grandfather's death until the NTSB has finished its investigation. Unfortunately, even then the exact cause may not be known. Small aircraft have no "black boxes" that can give investigators critical data about the crash. It isn't yet practical or affordable to install such devices on small aircraft. All the information has to be deduced from the accident scene, and it is not always easy to come to a satisfactory answer. That can be pretty frustrating, but it is a fact of life.

One problem is that a common cause has not ever been found for this group of accidents. It's difficult to take corrective action if you can't find a problem to correct. Keep in mind that one of the first of these airplanes to be built, the Zenith factory demonstrator, has over 1300 hours on it. Many of those hours were flown with a full load on long cross country flights to trade shows and air shows. Hundreds of people have gotten demo rides in this airplane over the years. For several years, the designer, Chris Heintz himself, flew his 601XL all over the country. His sons now run the business and have doubtless flown many hours in these aircraft themselves. My own airplane has over 300 hours on it with no evidence of a problem. Many other 601XLs have hundreds of hours on them with no structural issues. With this history, the designer has good reason to believe that the design is basically sound.

Because of these recent accidents, the 601XL has become one of the most thoroughly tested airplanes in this class and still no definite critical weakness has been found. This testing has ruled out the possibility of flutter unless the aileron cables are tensioned way below the recommended value. In the very few cases where flutter has occurred, the airplane was successfully landed and the cables were found to be slack. Setting proper cable tension solved the problem. In these cases, the problem occurred on an early test flight and were the result of improper assembly of the control system. And yet in these few cases, flutter did not lead to a catastrophic failure, the pilot had time to recognize the problem and take corrective action.

Just about any airplane can be made to come apart in flight. All you have to do is suddenly yank the stick back to its stops at a high enough speed. Many pilots don't like to admit it but pilot error is the root cause of more accidents than all other causes combined. Even a good pilot can have a bad day. I'm not saying that all of these accidents were caused by the pilot, but that possibility has not been definitely ruled out either. Lacking a definite problem to fix, the designer has decided to generally strengthen the wing structure of the airplane to further increase the safety margin.

A careful reading of the NTSB report that recommended grounding the 601XL makes it seem like a typical political CYA document. It appears to be based more on rumor and conjecture than hard data.  It seems to have been written by the political appointees on the board without much input from the professional investigators who do most of the real work for the agency. Fortunately, the NTSB can only recommend, they have no authority to take action.

As far as the FAA grounding a particular aircraft type, this is fairly easy to do in some cases. If the airplane is factory built to a type certificate, the FAA can take action against the type certificate. Aircraft built to the recent S-LSA standards do not have type certificates, however they are factory built to a common design standard and the FAA can take action. The FAA has effectively grounded the S-LSA version of the 601XL until they are modified with the upgrade kit from the designer.

If the airplane has an experimental certificate, such as an E-LSA or an amateur built aircraft, it becomes much more complicated. Dustin, your grandfather's airplane was one of these. These aircraft are not built according to a type certificate or a common design standard. Each one was built by an individual who may or may not have built it exactly according to the original design. These aircraft are considered one of a kind aircraft manufactured by an individual, they don't even have to be called 601XLs on the airworthiness certificates. The FAA would have to ground each of these aircraft individually. I doubt that the FAA has the manpower or resources to carry out this task, even if were possible to find all the 610XL that are out there. The FAA has recommended that all 601XLs be grounded until they are upgraded.

The FAA has left the responsibility for the continued airworthiness of experimental aircraft with the owner of the airplane. This is one of the freedoms we enjoy in this country. It also carries with it some risk, but what form of freedom doesn't? Each person has to decide for himself how much risk he is willing to accept. It is up to the owner of the airplane to gather any information affecting the airworthiness of his airplane and then use that information to decide if his airplane is safe enough to fly. The information about the recent accidents has been widely disseminated. It has appeared in the Zenair newsletter, which is considered the official outlet for information concerning the design of Zenith airplanes.

On Dec 21, 2009, at 10:30 AM, LarryMcFarland wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Hi Dustin,

 My condolences for your loss.  The recent focus on the 601XL this past year or more has been over the 6 aircraft that seem to have lost their wings in flight.

 The first assumption was that there was flutter. This was examined and tested with sufficient means to determine that it was not likely to have been flutter. Of

 the several hundred XLs, only 2 or 3 have reported the possibility of flutter in flight. The recent recommendations that the XL be grounded until a resolution

 be found has resulted in a precautionary retrofit kit to strengthen the center spar, attach  points and wings. The kit is being produced at this time.

 It is also possible that, as you commented, your grandfather may have suffered a heart attack and pushed the controls forward enough to over stress the wing

 attach points and leave the wings a considerable distance behind point of impact. At 120 mph, things occur quickly and parts could have been strewn a hundred yards.

 About 12 people have died in similar circumstances so far. I believe the Zenith is doing as much as can be done at this time. They will eventually be able to come to a conclusion as to the real cause. Because they do not have deep pockets, I would suspect this may or not impact their ability to stay in business long term.

 I would suggest you permit enough time to pass to find the real reason for your grandfather's accident and then decide what's respectfully appropriate for his untimely passing.

 Larry McFarland

 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

 do not archive

 dustinheit wrote:

> 

> 

> Hello All,

> 

> I have noticed all of these posts are in regard to the 601XL that crashed in Fulton County Arkansas. The man in the plane, Charles Cummings, is my grandfather. I know the National Safety Transportation Board had recommended grounding the 601XL several times before my grandfather's crash and never did anything about it until after my grandfather had died in the accident. The two wings of the plane were peeled off by "flutter" in mid-air, and he crashed in a field. I went to the crash site to get an idea of what might have caused the accident. I originally thought my grandpa had a heart attack, hit the wheel, and pushed down on it causing a downward crash. However, the wings were found far away from the crash, one in a pond nearby, and the other several hundred feet behind the main compartment. There was only a pit in the ground of where the crash occurred, no ground marks... like that of what I would have expected from an emergency landing. Not only did the FAA neglect to ground this type of aircraft, but the engineer of the aircraft keeps saying to everyone that it is fine to fly, although the wings causes "flutter" and rips the damn wings off the plane in mid-air.  I am very sad because of this event, and I miss him very much. He raised me from childhood. Can anyone give me any advice on what I should do to prevent this fatal injury to other pilots?  My email is dustinheit(at)aol.com   Please contact me if you have any advice. He loved to fly. God Bless him and may God welcome him into His arms. 

> Dustin Cummings Heitschmidt

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 78404#278404

>

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith601-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum