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rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:50 pm Post subject: Tuft video

Okay, here it is. Dancing yarn and more.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG796iiymYw

Rick Girard

To archive of not to archive, that is the question

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:24 am Post subject: Tuft video

That is close to what I expected.  The break at the wide spot aft of the door is a significant source of troubled flow.The upsweep of the tufts at lower speeds is from air converging to the empty area above.  John H and others

who have that area filled would show a different pattern.  Thanks for the good job.

BB



On 6, Nov 2009, at 2:44 AM, Richard Girard wrote:

[quote]Okay, here it is. Dancing yarn and more.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG796iiymYw

Rick Girard

To archive of not to archive, that is the question

   	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:03 am Post subject: tuft video

Richard- I noticed that at the higher speeds there seemed to be wrinkling of the fabric about a foot in front of where the boom tube comes out.  Is the fabric loose, or is it an indicator of severe turbulence in that area?  Does the fabric do that on the other side?

  

                                            Bill Sullivan

                                            Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                            FS 447

 [quote][b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:35 am Post subject: tuft video

Fabric is tight. I haven't filmed the other side so I can't say.



Rick



On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 8:32 AM, william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net (williamtsullivan(at)att.net)> wrote:

 [quote]Richard- I noticed that at the higher speeds there seemed to be wrinkling of the fabric about a foot in front of where the boom tube comes out.  Is the fabric loose, or is it an indicator of severe turbulence in that area?  Does the fabric do that on the other side?

   

                                            Bill Sullivan

                                            Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                            FS 447

  	  Quote: 	
		  



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rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:36 am Post subject: Tuft video

Bob, Coming on winter and the windows have to go back on. I'll shoot another video and see how it looks then.



Rick



On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 8:11 AM, robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

 [quote]That is close to what I expected.  The break at the wide spot aft of the door is a significant source of troubled flow. The upsweep of the tufts at lower speeds is from air converging to the empty area above.  John H and others

who have that area filled would show a different pattern.  Thanks for the good job.

BB

 



On 6, Nov 2009, at 2:44 AM, Richard Girard wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Okay, here it is. Dancing yarn and more.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG796iiymYw

 



Rick Girard

To archive of not to archive, that is the question

   	  Quote: 	
		  

	




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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:24 pm Post subject: Tuft video

Rick G/Gang:



We've known for some time I have dead air at the top center of the windshield where it joins the center section.  Also behind the trailing edge of both doors.



Was able to ascertain this info without tufting, but flew in rain.  When the rain drops stay put, there's not much air moving over them.



A fix for the windshield was a fiberglass faring.  TNK laid one up on my mkIII, finished it up, and shipped it to me.  Unfortunately, the fabricator got his cardinal directions 180 degrees out and built up the inside rather than the outside of the faring.  I flew that trip to Alaska without it.



If we ever get around to it, we will use a faring like the old OH-58 used at the aft end of the fuselage where it started an abrupt taper to the tailboom, much like the mkIII.  It was a band of sheet metal about two or three inches wide, stood off the fuselage a couple inches, and ran from the top to the bottom of the fuselage.  One of these days, maybe we'll get to that project.



john h

mkIII

Edwards AFB, CA - A neat place for an aviation buff to hang out.

---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:53 pm Post subject: Tuft video

John, I would point out to you that WE did not "KNOW" anything of a sort. YOU may have had an intuitive insight into the flow around the pod given you by the raindrop observation, but that is all. You'll notice there are no tufts on the windows of my plane in the area where you observed the rain drops, they are on the opaque covered panels. I could not see those areas in flight. I've seen your airplane and it's covered similarly to mine. I seriously doubt you can see through those panels any better than me. 

 I, too, had an intuitive idea that the area aft of the doors and aft of the panel joint is an area of stagnated flow. I would not have guessed the area witnessed by that one lone tuft pointing forward. I would not have guessed that as I went faster the air would flow up the side rather than back toward the prop. 

 Will it do that when I put the windows back on? I don't know. 

Will the flow be affected by the prop extension I put on? I don't know. 

Will a pressure recovery fairing going all the way up the aft end of the pod weldment change the flow on the sides? I don't know.

 Too many unknowns for me. I intend to find out.

Rick Girard

do not archive

 



On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:17 PM,  <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

 

 Rick G/Gang:

 

 We've known for some time I have dead air at the top center of the windshield where it joins the center section.  Also behind the trailing edge of both doors.

 

 Was able to ascertain this info without tufting, but flew in rain.  When the rain drops stay put, there's not much air moving over them.

 

 A fix for the windshield was a fiberglass faring.  TNK laid one up on my mkIII, finished it up, and shipped it to me.  Unfortunately, the fabricator got his cardinal directions 180 degrees out and built up the inside rather than the outside of the faring.  I flew that trip to Alaska without it.

  

 If we ever get around to it, we will use a faring like the old OH-58 used at the aft end of the fuselage where it started an abrupt taper to the tailboom, much like the mkIII.  It was a band of sheet metal about two or three inches wide, stood off the fuselage a couple inches, and ran from the top to the bottom of the fuselage.  One of these days, maybe we'll get to that project.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 Edwards AFB, CA - A neat place for an aviation buff to hang out.

 ---

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:33 pm Post subject: Tuft video

Rick, I think what John was referring to would be (or at least what I would imagine) a slat located vertically justaft of the door opening to attempt to reconnect the flow.  Similar to those gadgets they used to put on the top end

of station wagons to sweep the dirt off the back window.  Maybe there are some sitting in a junkyard somewhere.

Couldn't be a lot uglier than VGs.

BB



On 6, Nov 2009, at 4:45 PM, Richard Girard wrote:

[quote]John, I would point out to you that WE did not "KNOW" anything of a sort. YOU may have had an intuitive insight into the flow around the pod given you by the raindrop observation, but that is all. You'll notice there are no tufts on the windows of my plane in the area where you observed the rain drops, they are on the opaque covered panels. I could not see those areas in flight. I've seen your airplane and it's covered similarly to mine. I seriously doubt you can see through those panels any better than me. 

 I, too, had an intuitive idea that the area aft of the doors and aft of the panel joint is an area of stagnated flow. I would not have guessed the area witnessed by that one lone tuft pointing forward. I would not have guessed that as I went faster the air would flow up the side rather than back toward the prop. 

 Will it do that when I put the windows back on? I don't know. 

Will the flow be affected by the prop extension I put on? I don't know. 

Will a pressure recovery fairing going all the way up the aft end of the pod weldment change the flow on the sides? I don't know.

 Too many unknowns for me. I intend to find out.

Rick Girard

do not archive

 



On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:17 PM,  <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

 

 Rick G/Gang:

 

 We've known for some time I have dead air at the top center of the windshield where it joins the center section.  Also behind the trailing edge of both doors.

 

 Was able to ascertain this info without tufting, but flew in rain.  When the rain drops stay put, there's not much air moving over them.

 

 A fix for the windshield was a fiberglass faring.  TNK laid one up on my mkIII, finished it up, and shipped it to me.  Unfortunately, the fabricator got his cardinal directions 180 degrees out and built up the inside rather than the outside of the faring.  I flew that trip to Alaska without it.

  

 If we ever get around to it, we will use a faring like the old OH-58 used at the aft end of the fuselage where it started an abrupt taper to the tailboom, much like the mkIII.  It was a band of sheet metal about two or three inches wide, stood off the fuselage a couple inches, and ran from the top to the bottom of the fuselage.  One of these days, maybe we'll get to that project.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 Edwards AFB, CA - A neat place for an aviation buff to hang out.

 ---

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:48 pm Post subject: Tuft video

I have considered those myself, but haven't gotten around  to it. Why not make a couple out of lexan using wire ties to secure them to the  legs and tubes on the side. Shouldn't be too hard to do.  I know that I get  more speed if I leave the plastic stuff ( from Kolb's full enclosure) off the  back of the cage. Since you are experimenting Rick-????

 Larry C

 [quote]   ---

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rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:20 am Post subject: Tuft video

Actually, you guys are right. The BD-4 guys have been using a vane at the corners of the windshield to steer the flow for years. I thought I'd just lay up some fiberglass over a piece of large PVC pipe and then cut them out. The covering on Zulu Delta's pod is junk anyway so a couple of holes for standoffs and a little RTV to seal them back up and we're there. I'm also trimming back all the doors and windows to try and kill those little turbulence makers, too. The wind is blowing so hard here I don't want to fly anyway, might as well build something. 



Rick



On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 8:45 PM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com (lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com)> wrote:

[quote]        I have considered those myself, but haven't gotten around  to it. Why not make a couple out of lexan using wire ties to secure them to the  legs and tubes on the side. Shouldn't be too hard to do.  I know that I get  more speed if I leave the plastic stuff ( from Kolb's full enclosure) off the  back of the cage. Since you are experimenting Rick-????

 Larry C

 [quote]

   ---

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Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: Tuft video

Thanks for the tuft video, very informative. Here's a question: I wonder if  the shock wave that apparently precedes the prop may have some effect on what the tufts are doing. If memory serves me right you have a 582 so the prop on the side of the fuselage that the camera is filming would be moving from the bottom around towards the wing underside. Standing at the tail, a clockwise rotation.

I suppose very unlikely up towards the doors, but perhaps it could affect at least some of the tufting?



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:49 am Post subject: Tuft video

Richard, Herb posited the same idea and I haven't had time to look for any research into how far any disturbance in front of a rotating prop projects so I can only speculate.

I think it has more to do with the airflow coming from under the pod. The angle between panels on the bottom is at least as large as that between the sides, at least as measured with my trusty Mk I eyeball, so there is probably quite a lot of turbulent flow over the aft bottom panel, too. Combined with its narrowing toward the rear the airflow wrapping around from underneath might account for most of the upward flow on the side.

 I suppose the proof of any ideas would be to film the right side of the airplane and see if the tufts go down. As soon as the wind dies down a little I'll tuft up that side and do another test.

 Rick



On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)>

 

 Thanks for the tuft video, very informative. Here's a question: I wonder if ï¿½the shock wave that apparently precedes the prop may have some effect on what the tufts are doing. If memory serves me right you have a 582 so the prop on the side of the fuselage that the camera is filming would be moving from the bottom around towards the wing underside. Standing at the tail, a clockwise rotation.

  I suppose very unlikely up towards the doors, but perhaps it could affect at least some of the tufting?

 

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271647#271647

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

 ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

 et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 le, List Admin.

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


ï¿½b



  [quote][b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:35 am Post subject: Tuft video

An experiment that wouldn't be too difficult:screw a rectangular flat plate on the bottom of the fuselage beginning at the wide spot and extending to the prop

plane of rotation.  Tuft check sides again.

BB



On 8, Nov 2009, at 5:48 AM, Richard Girard wrote:

[quote]Richard, Herb posited the same idea and I haven't had time to look for any research into how far an a disturbance in front of a rotating prop projects so I can only speculate.I think it has more to do with the airflow coming from under the pod. The angle between panels on the bottom is at least as large as that between the sides, at least as measured with my trusty Mk I eyeball, so there is probably quite a lot of turbulent flow over the aft bottom panel combined with its narrowing toward the rear accounts for most of the upward flow on the side.

 I suppose the proof of any ideas would be to film the right side of the airplane and see if the tufts go down. As soon as the wind dies down a little I'll tuft up that side and do another test.

 Rick



On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)>

 

 Thanks for the tuft video, very informative. Here's a question: I wonder if  the shock wave that apparently precedes the prop may have some effect on what the tufts are doing. If memory serves me right you have a 582 so the prop on the side of the fuselage that the camera is filming would be moving from the bottom around towards the wing underside. Standing at the tail, a clockwise rotation.

  I suppose very unlikely up towards the doors, but perhaps it could affect at least some of the tufting?

 

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271647#271647

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

 ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

 et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 le, List Admin.

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


 b



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href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com

href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com

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rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:14 am Post subject: Tuft video

Bob, I think my idea is easier.  All I have to do it make another camera mount for the other side.

Rick



On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:31 AM, robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

 [quote]An experiment that wouldn't be too difficult:screw a rectangular flat plate on the bottom of the fuselage beginning at the wide spot and extending to the prop

 plane of rotation.  Tuft check sides again.

BB



On 8, Nov 2009, at 5:48 AM, Richard Girard wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Richard, Herb posited the same idea and I haven't had time to look for any research into how far an a disturbance in front of a rotating prop projects so I can only speculate. I think it has more to do with the airflow coming from under the pod. The angle between panels on the bottom is at least as large as that between the sides, at least as measured with my trusty Mk I eyeball, so there is probably quite a lot of turbulent flow over the aft bottom panel combined with its narrowing toward the rear accounts for most of the upward flow on the side.

  I suppose the proof of any ideas would be to film the right side of the airplane and see if the tufts go down. As soon as the wind dies down a little I'll tuft up that side and do another test.

  Rick



On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)>

 

 Thanks for the tuft video, very informative. Here's a question: I wonder if  the shock wave that apparently precedes the prop may have some effect on what the tufts are doing. If memory serves me right you have a 582 so the prop on the side of the fuselage that the camera is filming would be moving from the bottom around towards the wing underside. Standing at the tail, a clockwise rotation.

   I suppose very unlikely up towards the doors, but perhaps it could affect at least some of the tufting?

 

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271647#271647

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

 ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

 et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 le, List Admin.

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


 b



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href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com

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href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com

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rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:53 pm Post subject: Tuft video

Already done that Herb, the landing shot was done with the engine at idle. Figure at 60 mph that's what, 85 feet per second give or take, I can't see a shock wave, turbulence, whatever, off the prop extending forward against that, but I won't know until I film it. I'll have to think about doing an engine out landing. If I do, I'll borrow the wife's little camera and film both sides at the same time. I guess if I shoot for the middle of the field I can do it without seat cushion damage.  Now if this wind would just lay off.

Rick



On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:29 PM,  <HGRAFF(at)aol.com (HGRAFF(at)aol.com)> wrote:

 [quote]     I make a prediction for the right side tufts. They will point uphill same  as the left side, steeper with more power. I have a test suggestion, after  you repeat your tests, add this one or two, low or no power, get the speeds by  descending to see what the tufts are doing. Yes, there seems to be a lot of  turbulence indicated behind the cabin. If that turbulence stays there even with  low/idle power setting, it would rule out prop pulsing, yes?

  

 Herb Graff

 Mark III, 246KT

  

  

  

  

  In a message dated 11/8/2009 10:35:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     I suppose the proof of any ideas would be to film the right side of the    airplane and see if the tufts go down. As soon as the wind dies down a little    I'll tuft up that side and do another  test.

	




   	  Quote: 	
		  



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