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hansriet

Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 93

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:33 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

http://www.eaa.org/news/2009/2009-11-07_zodiac.asp

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

On Sat, Nov 07, 2009 at 04:32:43PM -0800, hansriet wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   http://www.eaa.org/news/2009/2009-11-07_zodiac.asp


	


They didn't quite ground it. They "strongly recommended" that the aircraft

not be flown again until the necessary modifications are made.



AMD has not issued the safety bulletin yet. Since there is no safety

bulletin yet, it's still legal to fly the SLSA version.



I'm told that it's been in development for a while, but know nothing about

it. I'll be calling the factory Monday to get the scoop.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

wjones(at)brazoriainet.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:11 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Anyone have an idea what will be required

---

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Do Not Archive

Last edited by sabrina on Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:37 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Hi Sabrina,



I am impressed.  I have always thought the German V-1 power plant 

might be useful for airplanes - at least to some degree.



I'd sign up for a copy of your design if not for the fact that my 

limitation to fly only LSA compliant planes prevents use of anything 

except reciprocating engines.  (I hope they will change this to 

include electric motors soon.)



Paul

do not archive

At 05:14 PM 11/7/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I am currently working on a pulse jet powered flying motorcycle.   :O)

Scotsman

Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 89
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:33 pm Post subject: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Does this also now mean that the FAA is also wrong?

_________________
Cell +27 83 675 0815

lwhitlow

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Valparaiso Indiana

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:11 am Post subject: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Questions For Discussion



1. The FAA is saying that the E-AB guys should use the AMD fixes How will we get these drawings and parts?/ I am not a customer of AMD I bought a kit from the boys in Mexico MO. Anybody on the list have any contact with the Zenith in Mexico MO?? I'm assuming they are doing the changes for AMD and are the ones really doing the drawings and making the parts??



2. The AMD Letter refers to the EU/UK LAA mass balance weights drawings and I've read that. However, the LAA doc also calls for a carry through spar mod that AMD makes no mention of. SOOOOOO are we gonna have to do the carry through mod or not???



3. The AMD docs say the plane should be placarded per the November 2009 bulletin. So how do the E-AB guys get that bulletin?



What a mess. I think its poor planning and PR and engineering practice to point to a EU / UK LAA document that is not drawn and managed by the designer / manufacturer, and not at least discuss WHY you are NOT saying we should do everything in this document but only do part of it.



Zenith /AMD may not feel the spar mod is needed but at least say that or SAY SOMETHING! To be mute on the issue is NOT ACCEPTABLE!!



I'm ready, willing and able to do any mod to my nearly complete 601XL but I want words from Zenith as to their reasoning behind only implementing part of the LAA letter and not all of it



Zenith NOW IS THE TIME TO SPEAK UP!!! Every day you waste not addressing these questions devalues my aircraft, your investment in the 601 / 650 program and the Zenith Aircraft company.



I believe that no matter what problems may exists with the 601 /650 they are all fixable and we can have a safe respected airplane, but that requires the factory and designer to step up and say something



Larry Whitlow

601XL Jabiru 3300

N69102 (reserved)

I was about 90% done but now I apparently have more to do

leinad

Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 283
Location: Central Virginia

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:15 am Post subject: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Larry,

I was thinking of the same questions.  I'm a plans builder, and have never had any dealings with AMD.  Why is the FAA acting as if AMD is the manufacturer?  Why aren't the recommendations coming out of Zenith instead of AMD?  My airframe is also almost complete.

My hope is that Zenith (not AMD) puts out a design update soon that addresses all of the FAA's concerns, and that those changes are provided to us builders at no additional cost.

Dan



 	  lwhitlow wrote: 	
		  Questions For Discussion



1. The FAA is saying that the E-AB guys should use the AMD fixes How will we get these drawings and parts?/ I am not a customer of AMD I bought a kit from the boys in Mexico MO. Anybody on the list have any contact with the Zenith in Mexico MO?? I'm assuming they are doing the changes for AMD and are the ones really doing the drawings and making the parts??



2. The AMD Letter refers to the EU/UK LAA mass balance weights drawings and I've read that. However, the LAA doc also calls for a carry through spar mod that AMD makes no mention of. SOOOOOO are we gonna have to do the carry through mod or not???



3. The AMD docs say the plane should be placarded per the November 2009 bulletin. So how do the E-AB guys get that bulletin?



What a mess. I think its poor planning and PR and engineering practice to point to a EU / UK LAA document that is not drawn and managed by the designer / manufacturer, and not at least discuss WHY you are NOT saying we should do everything in this document but only do part of it.



Zenith /AMD may not feel the spar mod is needed but at least say that or SAY SOMETHING! To be mute on the issue is NOT ACCEPTABLE!!



I'm ready, willing and able to do any mod to my nearly complete 601XL but I want words from Zenith as to their reasoning behind only implementing part of the LAA letter and not all of it



Zenith NOW IS THE TIME TO SPEAK UP!!! Every day you waste not addressing these questions devalues my aircraft, your investment in the 601 / 650 program and the Zenith Aircraft company.



I believe that no matter what problems may exists with the 601 /650 they are all fixable and we can have a safe respected airplane, but that requires the factory and designer to step up and say something



Larry Whitlow

601XL Jabiru 3300

N69102 (reserved)

I was about 90% done but now I apparently have more to do

_________________
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine

Doug.Norman(at)sportaviat
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:41 am Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

AMD is the manufacturer for the SLSA version. The SLSA is the only version

which the FAA has any hold over; and even that is indirect. Owners of SLSA

airplanes are required (by law) to pay attention to SA/Ds issued by their

manufacturer. It's not a suggestion for us. For SLSAs, the issuance of a

SA/D by their airplane's manufacturer is the same as an issuance of an AD by

the FAA for a standard airplane. 



By hitch-hiking on the AMD Safety Alert/Directive, the FAA can push the

Zodiac experimental community to pay attention - they can't force their

attention; but if they could, they would. The FAA is couching E-AB and ELSA

adherence to the AMD SA/D as an airworthiness issue which you ignore at your

peril. They can't force you, but if you have an incident, and you have not

made the changes, then (their reasoning is that) you knowingly operated your

aircraft in a non-airworthy condition - which is against the FARs.



I suspect that Zenith will publish the AMD pages as the design which Zenith

customers should use. And, Zenith will probably make kits available for the

retrofit.



Best of luck,

Doug Norman, CFI, AGI

AMD Zodiac N601DN



--

leinad

Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 283
Location: Central Virginia

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Doug,

You say the FAA has no hold over us Experimental builders, but as I haven't completed my build and the FAA has to inspect it and grant an airworthiness certificate for it, it seams like they do have at least some hold over us EAB guys.

Dan



 	  Doug.Norman(at)sportaviat wrote: 	
		  AMD is the manufacturer for the SLSA version. The SLSA is the only version

which the FAA has any hold over; and even that is indirect. Owners of SLSA

airplanes are required (by law) to pay attention to SA/Ds issued by their

manufacturer. It's not a suggestion for us. For SLSAs, the issuance of a

SA/D by their airplane's manufacturer is the same as an issuance of an AD by

the FAA for a standard airplane. 



By hitch-hiking on the AMD Safety Alert/Directive, the FAA can push the

Zodiac experimental community to pay attention - they can't force their

attention; but if they could, they would. The FAA is couching E-AB and ELSA

adherence to the AMD SA/D as an airworthiness issue which you ignore at your

peril. They can't force you, but if you have an incident, and you have not

made the changes, then (their reasoning is that) you knowingly operated your

aircraft in a non-airworthy condition - which is against the FARs.



I suspect that Zenith will publish the AMD pages as the design which Zenith

customers should use. And, Zenith will probably make kits available for the

retrofit.



Best of luck,

Doug Norman, CFI, AGI

AMD Zodiac N601DN



--

_________________
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:58 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Unless things have changed quite a bit since I got my inspection, the  

airworthiness inspection is primarily a paperwork inspection. My  

inspector looked over my plane in just a bit more detail than you  

would give to a typical pre-flight inspection, The primary points of  

the inspection were to make sure all the forms were properly filled  

out, the panel was properly marked, all the placards and markings were  

in place and make sure all the required documents were in the  

airplane. The inspector is not likely to get out your plans and go  

over them in detail to make sure you followed them correctly.



On Nov 8, 2009, at 3:02 PM, leinad wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Doug,

 You say the FAA has no hold over us Experimental builders, but as I  

 haven't completed my build and the FAA has to inspect it and grant  

 an airworthiness certificate for it, it seams like they do have at  

 least some hold over us EAB guys.

 Dan




	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

Doug.Norman(at)sportaviat
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:08 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

That's an excellent point. I don't know what a DAR would do given the

current facts and circumstances.

Doug



--

afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

I would bet every DAR will know of the FAA's decision and will not issue an airworthiness if the mods aren't done. I beleve they have to request permission from their field office to preform the inspection so a DAR that doesn't know of the mods is not going to happen.

    

   Jeff

 

 

 --

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:32 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

On Sun, Nov 08, 2009 at 11:15:29AM -0800, leinad wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I was thinking of the same questions.  I'm a plans builder, and have never

 had any dealings with AMD.  Why is the FAA acting as if AMD is the

 manufacturer?  Why aren't the recommendations coming out of Zenith instead

 of AMD?  My airframe is also almost complete.


	


Because the FAA can't deal with Zenith for much of anything. The FAA *can*

deal with AMD, as the manufacturer of the SLSA version (*not* Zenith). As

far as the FAA is concerned, for the SLSA, AMD *is* the manufacturer.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

leinad

Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 283
Location: Central Virginia

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Bryan,

I recall a thread on this some time ago.  Inspections run the gamut from a cursory look over the plane and check of the paper work to all day long affairs where every detail that can be gotten to is scrutinized.  I really don't know what to expect on inspection day.  I just have to be as ready as I can be.  I'm sure I'll make the required mods, I'm just not sure what they are or where the information will come from.



I"m guessing that mass balance of the ailerons will be part of the change.  Does this mean the flex hinges are out?  Just another of many questions.



Anyone interested should come to chat to talk about this tomorrow night.

Dan



 	  bryanmmartin wrote: 	
		  Unless things have changed quite a bit since I got my inspection, the  

airworthiness inspection is primarily a paperwork inspection. My  

inspector looked over my plane in just a bit more detail than you  

would give to a typical pre-flight inspection, The primary points of  

the inspection were to make sure all the forms were properly filled  

out, the panel was properly marked, all the placards and markings were  

in place and make sure all the required documents were in the  

airplane. The inspector is not likely to get out your plans and go  

over them in detail to make sure you followed them correctly.



On Nov 8, 2009, at 3:02 PM, leinad wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Doug,

 You say the FAA has no hold over us Experimental builders, but as I  

 haven't completed my build and the FAA has to inspect it and grant  

 an airworthiness certificate for it, it seams like they do have at  

 least some hold over us EAB guys.

 Dan

	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine

service(at)eipdiesel.com.
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:34 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Go to the ZAC website, all the mod info is on there.



Greg Cox



--

pchap(at)primus.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:11 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

At 21:33 08-11-09, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Go to the ZAC website, all the mod info is on there.


	




There's a massive number of changes!



As a brief initial summary:

(Note I may be wrong somewhere as I'm doing this quickly and am not 

personally involved with an XL)

SPARS (or at least, p1 of the Zenair Upgrade)



- main spar top cap - L angle extrustion, for about half span

(and some bolts in place of rivets)

- doubler for the main spar web at the wing root (with a spacer)



- rear spar doubler around the aileron pushrod cutout

- doubler plate for rear spar channel inboard

- rear spar top cap - L angle for full span

CENTER SECTION   (p2 of the Zenair Upgrade)

- center spar top cap doubler

- additional L doubler for center spar top cap



- new heavier front wing uprights

- 4 heavy L angle uprights on center spar to brace it

- web doubler for spar at wing attach bolts (and shims)

WINGS & FUSELAGE     (p3 of the Zenair Upgrade)

- new style support channel for aileron bell crank

- L angles to reinforce the rib with bell crank (2 on top, 2 on bottom)



- angles to brace the forward fuselage around the wing uprights (Z 

angle to the front,  L angle to the aft)

- gussets to brace the top of the wing uprights (front and aft)



- longer angles around seat pan cutouts



- new thicker rear wing attach plates



- more rivets inboard between spar and wing skin

Peter Chapman

Toronto, ON           601 HDS  /  912  /  C-GZDC

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:58 pm Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Hi Peter,



Your list of changes only considers the drawings currently posted as 

AMD changes.  There's a lot more to be done to meet Chris Heintz's 

requirements including aileron mass balance, control system 

sensitivity change, and I have no idea what else.



If you read the 7 page Q&A you will see there are a bunch of changes 

in the "Package" not included in the 3 pages of drawings.



Still, I am glad the whole thing is coming to a conclusion.  I intend 

to install all the changes on my plane.



Paul

XL awaiting engineering changes.



At 07:30 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  There's a massive number of changes!



As a brief initial summary:

(Note I may be wrong somewhere as I'm doing this quickly and am not 

personally involved with an XL)

SPARS (or at least, p1 of the Zenair Upgrade)



- main spar top cap - L angle extrustion, for about half span

(and some bolts in place of rivets)

- doubler for the main spar web at the wing root (with a spacer)



- rear spar doubler around the aileron pushrod cutout

- doubler plate for rear spar channel inboard

- rear spar top cap - L angle for full span

CENTER SECTION   (p2 of the Zenair Upgrade)

- center spar top cap doubler

- additional L doubler for center spar top cap



- new heavier front wing uprights

- 4 heavy L angle uprights on center spar to brace it

- web doubler for spar at wing attach bolts (and shims)

WINGS & FUSELAGE     (p3 of the Zenair Upgrade)

- new style support channel for aileron bell crank

- L angles to reinforce the rib with bell crank (2 on top, 2 on bottom)



- angles to brace the forward fuselage around the wing uprights (Z 

angle to the front,  L angle to the aft)

- gussets to brace the top of the wing uprights (front and aft)



- longer angles around seat pan cutouts



- new thicker rear wing attach plates



- more rivets inboard between spar and wing skin

Peter Chapman

Toronto, ON           601 HDS  /  912  /  C-GZDC

lwhitlow

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Valparaiso Indiana

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650

Here's the link to the mods



http://www.zenithair.com/news/ntsb-astm-4-09a.html



OK  That was faster than I expected.  



I do have sympathy for what Chris said in his answer to Question 2 about non-disclosure per NTSB rules and he mentions they are being sued as reasons they have not spoken much on the matter. I was un-aware anyone had started legal action.



OK so a few of my questions have been addressed well, but a few have gotten more cloudy



I note the EXTENSIVE spar mods both in the wing and in the center section, and do wonder about how much weight is getting put in here??  



The drawings are great but has this been done on an actual 601?? are there pictures yet??  I know this is hot off the presses but have they actually replaced these parts on a completed aircraft?  



And of course the hard to pin down "is it flutter or not issue?"  OK so we beef it up to prevent it. Great!  Chris addresses it in Question 8 that yes Weights are now going to be used.  But unless I'm looking through it  I see no drawings of the weights. I have the LAA drawings but I really would like it if a set would come from Zenith and the people who know the aircraft.  Are we supposed to use the LAA drawings???   



I wonder how long it will be before we can get the upgrade kits in hand??  I never did the final close on my wings so I'm pretty good there but some of the spar work is gonna be a pain in the butt on a mostly finished fuselage..



Small price to pay I suppose...

Larry Whitlow

601XL Jabiru 3300 Sensenich Composite prop

N69102 (Reserved)



90% done with the first build

0% done with the mods

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:24 am Post subject: FAA grounds 601 and 650

On Sun, Nov 08, 2009 at 09:48:45PM -0800, lwhitlow wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   And of course the hard to pin down "is it flutter or not issue?"  OK so we

 beef it up to prevent it. Great!  Chris addresses it in Question 8 that

 yes Weights are now going to be used.  But unless I'm looking through it I

 see no drawings of the weights. I have the LAA drawings but I really would

 like it if a set would come from Zenith and the people who know the

 aircraft.  Are we supposed to use the LAA drawings???


	


Yes. The AMD safety alert specifically says that the LAA instructions are to

be followed for the aileron balance weights only.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

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