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EFIS backups

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Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:49 pm Post subject: EFIS backups

I was pretty sure I was going to go with steam gage airspeed, altimeter, plus a TruTrak ADI for EFIS backup. But now that Dynon has their D-6 for $1600, I wonder if that's a better route. I'd like to hear comments from users of either system.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

davidsoutpost(at)comcast.
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject: EFIS backups

Thats my plan,,,,,, with its own back-up battery power.  Thats a lot cheaper and lighter than a six pack. 

Dave Clifford 



---

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:05 pm Post subject: EFIS backups

I went with the D-100 in my panel including the battery back up making mine a 3 independent battery system. I do prefer the larger screens especially if you are placing your safety on the display. Â Also I was able to eliminate the vacuum pump. After 105 hours of flying I am happy with the set up.   

   

Robin  

    	  Quote:

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Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:15 pm Post subject: EFIS backups

Give some thought to the  fact that Trutrack is not a standard EFIS.

It does not display pitch in degrees above/below horizon....and the

Dyon is. So your brain would have to switch between what the display

meant on one vs the other. I'd look long and hard at the Dyon Skyview

for primary and a D-6 for backup if you can't afford a second Skyview

screen.



On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I was pretty sure I was going to go with steam gage airspeed, altimeter, plus a TruTrak ADI for EFIS backup. But now that Dynon has their D-6 for $1600, I wonder if that's a better route. I'd like to hear comments from users of either system.



 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 72375#272375

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

coop85(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:15 pm Post subject: EFIS backups

I have the Grand Rapids display for my primary and the Dynon D10A for the backup.  As mentioned I really like the idea of a 2 hour backup battery and I also carry a Garmin 496 as my backup nav, although mostly for the XM wx and radio.  In the event of total electrical failure I can still aviate and navigate without the expense and hassle of the gyros.  I've been very pleased so far with lots of IFR travels.

  

 Marcus

 



--- On Wed, 11/11/09, davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net <davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net> wrote:

do not archive

 [quote]

From: davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net <davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net>

Subject: Re: EFIS backups

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 8:02 PM



  #yiv1596147031 p {margin:0;}   Thats my plan,,,,,, with its own back-up battery power.  Thats a lot cheaper and lighter than a six pack.

 Dave Clifford

 

---

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:14 pm Post subject: EFIS backups

I think the main consideration of any backup flight  instruments is independence. All these electronic boxes have a dependency which  has to be there or it does not function normally or at all. For instance the GRT  is independent of GPS but the magnetometer is required. Some EFIS systems  require GPS for the PFD/MFD to give normal readings. The main concern should be  having two systems with different dependencies so that any single failure of P/S  air, GPS, or magnetometer does not jeopardize the safety of the  aircraft.   Then the only common dependency is electrical power.  That can be handled by multiple batteries and power  generators.

  

 Dual Cheltons XBOW AHRS primary

 GRT Sport GRT AHRS backup

 Trutrak DF II VSGV second backup

 Autopilot system selection switch

 Single alternator, 3 (680)s primary and essential  buses.



   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of MARCUS  COOPER

Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 7:07 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: EFIS  backups

 

                   I have the Grand Rapids display for my primary and the Dynon D10A for        the backup.  As mentioned I really like the idea of a 2 hour backup        battery and I also carry a Garmin 496 as my backup nav, although mostly        for the XM wx and radio.  In the event of total electrical        failure I can still aviate and navigate without the expense and hassle of        the gyros.  I've been very pleased so far with lots of IFR        travels.

        

       Marcus

       



--- On Wed, 11/11/09, davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net        <davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net> wrote:

do not  archive

       [quote]

From:          davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net <davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net>

Subject:          Re: EFIS backups

To:          rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 8:02          PM



                  #yiv1596147031 P { 	MARGIN: 0px }                    Thats my plan,,,,,, with its own back-up battery power.           Thats a lot cheaper and lighter than a six pack.

         Dave Clifford

         

---

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:29 pm Post subject: EFIS backups

I opted for steam guages and the ADI though I still worry about 

electromagnetic pulse (EPM).  At least I'll have airspeed and altimeter...



Bill "should be building" Watson



Bob Turner wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I was pretty sure I was going to go with steam gage airspeed, altimeter, plus a TruTrak ADI for EFIS backup. But now that Dynon has their D-6 for $1600, I wonder if that's a better route. I'd like to hear comments from users of either system.



 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 72375#272375

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:55 pm Post subject: EFIS backups

Just thought about this….  

   

How often do the batteries in the Dynon’s need to be replaced and are they something you could buy locally or would you have to go back to the Dynon for them?  

   

Phil  

   

     

From: MARCUS COOPER [mailto:coop85(at)verizon.net] 

 Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:07 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: EFIS backups  

  

              

I have the Grand Rapids display for my primary and the   Dynon D10A for the backup.  As mentioned I really like the idea of a 2   hour backup battery and I also carry a Garmin 496 as my backup nav, although   mostly for the XM wx and radio.  In the event of total electrical   failure I can still aviate and navigate without the expense and hassle of the   gyros.  I've been very pleased so far with lots of IFR travels.   

      

    

      

Marcus   

      



   

   --- On Wed, 11/11/09, davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net <davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net>   wrote:

   do not archive   

   [quote]   



   From: davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net <davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net>

   Subject: Re: EFIS backups

   To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

   Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 8:02 PM            

Thats   my plan,,,,,, with its own back-up battery power.  Thats a lot   cheaper and lighter than a six pack.   

      

Dave   Clifford   

      



   ---

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:58 am Post subject: EFIS backups

Â Â  Robin, I would argue your statement about having three independent systems.Â  Iâ€™m going with two Advanced Decks and a D10A for backup.Â  All three have their own battery and are â€œindependentâ€ but two normally share the same firmware, and information, so I donâ€™t consider it as being three independent systems, really only two.  

   

Michael  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks

 Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:04 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: EFIS backups  

  

  

   

I went with the D-100 in my panel including the battery back up making mine a 3 independent battery system. I do prefer the larger screens especially if you are placing your safety on the display.  Also I was able to eliminate the vacuum pump. After 105 hours of flying I am happy with the set up.   

   

Robin  

    	  Quote:

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:17 am Post subject: EFIS backups

Michael, argue away, I specifically wrote 3 independent â€œbattery systemsâ€ not avionics systems. I can have a main or back up battery go down (not uncommon) and remain 100% functional on my panel. Â I concur itâ€™s only two avionics systems. Clearly the weak component in the set up is the loose nut behind the control stick.  

   

Robin  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

 Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 4:56 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: EFIS backups  

  

  

   

   Robin, I would argue your statement about having three independent systems.  Iâ€™m going with two Advanced Decks and a D10A for backup.  All three have their own battery and are â€œindependentâ€ but two normally share the same firmware, and information, so I donâ€™t consider it as being three independent systems, really only two.  

   

Michael  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks

 Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:04 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: EFIS backups  

  

  

   

I went with the D-100 in my panel including the battery back up making mine a 3 independent battery system. I do prefer the larger screens especially if you are placing your safety on the display.  Also I was able to eliminate the vacuum pump. After 105 hours of flying I am happy with the set up.   

   

Robin  

    	  Quote: 	
		    	
  

~    ß¢{nrf

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:55 am Post subject: EFIS backups

Ok, you got me there.Â  I was pre my morning coffee.Â    

   

Michael  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks

 Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 8:09 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: EFIS backups  

  

  

   

Michael, argue away, I specifically wrote 3 independent â€œbattery systemsâ€ not avionics systems. I can have a main or back up battery go down (not uncommon) and remain 100% functional on my panel.  I concur itâ€™s only two avionics systems. Clearly the weak component in the set up is the loose nut behind the control stick.  

   

Robin  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

 Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 4:56 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: EFIS backups  

  

  

   

   Robin, I would argue your statement about having three independent systems.  Iâ€™m going with two Advanced Decks and a D10A for backup.  All three have their own battery and are â€œindependentâ€ but two normally share the same firmware, and information, so I donâ€™t consider it as being three independent systems, really only two.  

   

Michael  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks

 Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:04 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: EFIS backups  

  

  

   

I went with the D-100 in my panel including the battery back up making mine a 3 independent battery system. I do prefer the larger screens especially if you are placing your safety on the display.  Also I was able to eliminate the vacuum pump. After 105 hours of flying I am happy with the set up.   

   

Robin  

    	  Quote: 	
		    	
  

~       

  

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coop85(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:08 pm Post subject: EFIS backups

The Dynon battery charges with normal power applied.  I don't know how long they will last but have not heard of any issues requiring them to be replaced.

  

 Marcus



--- On Wed, 11/11/09, Perry, Phil <Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com> wrote:

do not archive

 [quote]

From: Perry, Phil <Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com>

Subject: RE: EFIS backups

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 11:53 PM



       

Just thought about thisâ€¦.

 

 

 

How often do the batteries in the Dynonâ€™s need to be replaced and are they something you could buy locally or would you have to go back to the Dynon for them?

 

 

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

  

From: MARCUS COOPER [mailto:coop85(at)verizon.net] 

Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:07 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: EFIS backups



 

 

      

I have the Grand Rapids display for my primary and the Dynon D10A for the backup.  As mentioned I really like the idea of a 2 hour backup battery and I also carry a Garmin 496 as my backup nav, although mostly for the XM wx and radio.  In the event of total electrical failure I can still aviate and navigate without the expense and hassle of the gyros.  I've been very pleased so far with lots of IFR travels.



  

 



  

Marcus



  

--- On Wed, 11/11/09, davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net <davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net> wrote:

do not archive



 [quote] 



From: davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net <davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net>

Subject: Re: EFIS backups

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 8:02 PM

    

Thats my plan,,,,,, with its own back-up battery power.  Thats a lot cheaper and lighter than a six pack.



  

Dave Clifford



  



---

jeff(at)westcottpress.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:39 pm Post subject: EFIS backups

I'd like to get a little feedback on this one from Rob Hickman.  My  

plan is to go with dual AF4500 EEs, each with its own battery pack and  

no steam gauges.  I like the notion that the presentation and  

operation of the two units is the same, and that would leave me with 4  

independent sources of power (alternator, battery and the two battery  

packs), but common firmware.  Is that too many eggs in the firmware  

basket?  Perhaps the best approach here is to upgrade the firmware one  

at a time, to minimize the chance of "dual surprises."



Jeff Carpenter

40304

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:07 pm Post subject: EFIS backups

After 30 years in the computer software business, I don't wish to be

dependent on two copies of the same hardware and software for flight safety.

I don't know the AFS system or what its dependency is; I do know that in my

Glastar (with partial panel round gauges) the GRT sport has on two occasions

decided to freeze. The problems were described to me as hardware but as an

end user I don't care where the problem lies; I just need to control the

aircraft whether VMC or IMC. Perhaps the EFIS manufacturers should answer "

what minimum sensor inputs are required for your system to function in

normal and/or degraded mode?"



--

jkreidler

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:48 am Post subject: Re: EFIS backups

We do have steam gauge backups.  The reason being if one of the EFIS boxes started to give bad information, how do you know which one is wrong?  With steam gauges you can always do some crosschecks to figure out what is going wrong.  So I guess I worry more about the gradual failures, like when a DG goes bad, more than the abrupt blank screens.  Failures are stressful enough, when your at minimums. Do you really want to try and figure out if you pitot is frozen, or you static is blocked.  Or would you rather figure out if you pitot is frozen, or your static is blocked, or if the software is bad, or if the display is bad, or if the alternator is bad, or if the battery is dead, or, repeat the list for the backup EFIS....



This is not an easy decision, and I can easily see both sides.  Just one guys opinion, thank god we all get to build our own.



Jason Kreidler

(4) Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls WI

N44YH - Flying

marcausman

Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 70

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: EFIS backups

On my all-electric airplane, I replace the main battery and EFIS backup battery every two years to make sure they are always in top condition. YMMV.



 	  Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com wrote: 	
		  Just thought about thisâ€¦.  

   

How often do the batteries in the Dynonâ€™s need to be replaced and are they something you could buy locally or would you have to go back to the Dynon for them?  

   

Phil

_________________
Marc Ausman
http://www.verticalpower.com "Move up to a modern electrical system"
RV-7 IO-390 Flying

marcausman

Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 70

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: EFIS backups

Jeff, just to clarify, are you assuming the alternator will provide power if the battery goes off-line? I don't know your specifics, but the most common voltage regulators require a battery to be connected to "stabilize" the voltage.  If your battery wire comes loose, for example, the voltage will likely start to quickly destabilize until the the over-voltage protection disables the alternator. Then you're left with just the EFIS backup battery. The caveat is that each of us has a unique airplane so your results may be different depending on the components you are using. 



 	  jeff(at)westcottpress.com wrote: 	
		  I like the notion that the presentation and  

operation of the two units is the same, and that would leave me with 4  

independent sources of power (alternator, battery and the two battery  

packs), but common firmware.  ."



Jeff Carpenter

40304

_________________
Marc Ausman
http://www.verticalpower.com "Move up to a modern electrical system"
RV-7 IO-390 Flying

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