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Rotax spark plugs
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Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

On Sat, November 14, 2009 3:15 pm, Roger Lee wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   


	


clip clip



 	  Quote: 	
		   The other big thing I see A&P's do is put anti seize

 on the plugs. Heat conducting paste only for the 912/914 and dry threads on 582's.


	


I guess I'll have to say you learn something every day. Why dry threads on a 582? I've

seen them greased with a thin coat of Lithium chassis grease. I thought this would be

a good thing to keep them from seizing. Please explain. I can guess why not to put

anti-seize on the 912/914 plugs and instead use heat conducting paste. But that is

something I didn't know either. What's on them when they come from the factory?



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell



"It is a misfortune, inseparable from human affairs, that public measures are

rarely investigated with that spirit of moderation which is essential to a just

estimate of their real tendency to advance or obstruct the public good; and

that this spirit is more apt to be diminished than prompted, by those occasions

which require an unusual exercise of it."

-- James Madison, Federalist No. 37



"[T]he government of the United States is a definite government,

confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments,

whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative

duty of the government."

-- James Madison



In general, the art of government consists of taking as much money as possible from

one party of the citizens to give to the other.

-- Voltaire (1764)

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax spark plugs

912/914's have a heat conducting paste which is silicone based. It lubricates, fills in hollow spots within the treads and acts as a medium to equalize the heat between the heads and plugs.



582 plug threads are dry because of the aluminum heads and if you apply any lube you will not torque  them correctly (correct torque is 238 in/lbs), they will be over torqued and it should be on a cold engine, too.

(page 11-4 of the 2 stroke maint. manual)

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Vic Baker

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 71
Location: Carson City, Nevada

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:24 am Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

Anyone out there found silicone heat conductivity paste,  Rotax p/n 897 186, 

for less than $158 for a small tube?

Vic Baker

S7 912S Warp

Carson City, Nv

---

_________________
Vic Baker
Series 7
Carson City, Nevada

helili(at)chahtatushka.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:49 am Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=8613&BAS

E



John Hart

KF IV, NSI Subaru

Wilburton, OK



--

pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:49 am Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

Radio Shack $5 +/-



---

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:37 am Post subject: Re: Rotax spark plugs

Get some plug paste at California Power Systems. You can get a big tube or I know Lockwood has it in little plastic pouches for like $3.00 and that's enough for one plug change. At least from these two guys you know you are getting something that is ok to use. I looked at that 3M stuff. I don't think I would use that. It is more a lubricant and not a heat transfer compound.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:54 am Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

Roger is correct,the silicone paste used on the plugs is not the same formulation as the common silicone grease you find in hardware stores,Radio Shack etc.This information came from Lockwood as I addressed it specifically in Rotax engine class. I too have a "truck load" of the standard stuff but was told not to use it.

  You use very little of the heat transfer compound on each plug. I have done two spark plug changes and still have plenty left out of that little packet. As mentioned the stuff is available at Lockwood,Leading Edge,CPS and I am sure other Rotax dealers.

                                                          Dick Maddux

                                                          Fox 4

                                                          912 UL

                                                          Milton,Fl

  [quote][b]

paul perry

Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 36

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:22 am Post subject: Re: Rotax spark plugs

Could someone explain why anti-seize is not to be used on the spark plug threads in the 912 series engines as I would like to pass the info on to my A&P.  Thanks, Paul Perry  KFIV Speedster 912UL

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Rotax spark plugs

Anti-seize is the wrong chemical compound and it is designed to lubricate and not transfer heat as a primary function. We care about even heat transfer and that's not what anti seize does. Continental and Lycoming only cared about the lubrication properties many years ago. Maybe they will catch up one day with more current thinking. 



A&P's need to do their homework on Rotax engines before doing any maint. They need a class, they need to read the SB's and they need to read the manuals. If your A&P doesn't have all the Rotax manuals printed out and the SB"s then that alone would make me wonder. Unfortunately many don't do that and feel that all engines are created equal and they have been a mechanic so long they know everything. They do to a Rotax the same as to the other engines and this has caused many an unsuspecting owner money and headaches. Make your A&P's learn about the Rotax engine. They may be surprised at all they don't know. It's not hard or wrong it's just different like anything else now days and if the people that work for you don't want to keep up then maybe it's time for a service person change in any part of your life's pursuits. 

I read the manuals, read all updates, go to schools and class updates. That's what you pay me for, to make sure I give you the proper and correct service. In the long run it saves you money even if you had to spend a little today. Can you actually put a price on your engines health and the life of a passenger and yourself? You might save a couple of dollars today on a maint bill, but you'll pay big later, one way or the other. You might save $50-$100 today and pay $2K-$8k later.  Don't be another cash or injury statistic. 



For me personally I got tired of all the service people doing the wrong things in life or not knowing so I go to all sorts of schools so I can help others. I actually enjoy helping other people. I also teach for AZ. Homeland Security so my education is important to me. (Retired Firefighter of 28 years)

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:33 am Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

I have a question.



What is it about the Rotax technology that it requires proprietary heat 

transfer compound on the spark plugs.  Is it something like only using 

genuine Rotax oil filters?  Or genuine GM parts on my car? Or the factory 

recommendation that my wife's car only run on name brand gas? - we discuss 

this pretty often.

I am a born skeptic, I guess,  but intelligent enough to understand an 

explanation. if there is one.  I ran my old 912 using graphited antisieze on 

the plugs, but of course, this began long before Rotax began conducting - 

and charging for, I might add - their maintenance seminars.



Can someone give a real rason other than Rotax recommends it?



Lowell



---

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:50 am Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

Hi C

  

 I am using FEL-PRO N-1000 Nuclear Grade copper graphite anti-sieze lubricant.  Out of date and got it pretty cheap.  Not so if its in date.  1lb can C will last me for 1000 years.  Will send some if you need it.

  

 Clint

 

[quote] From: vr_baker(at)nvbell.net

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Rotax spark plugs

 Date: Sun C 15 Nov 2009 08:09:20 -0800

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Baker" <vr_baker(at)nvbell.net>

 

 Anyone out there found silicone heat conductivity paste C Rotax p/n 897 186 C 

 for less than $158 for a small tube?

 

 

 Vic Baker

 S7 912S Warp

 Carson City C Nv

 ---

paul perry

Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 36

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax spark plugs

Thanks, Roger for responding, but I guess what I'm asking is why? Do the spark plugs in a Rotax get hotter than those in Lyc's and Cont's or are the NGK  spark plugs more likely to be damaged by heat than those used in the other engines? Like Lowell...some explanation other than "just because Rotax said so"   Paul Perry

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax spark plugs

First Rotax is the expert and Mfg. They have hundreds of thousands of hours of actual flight data and testing, not to mention millions of $$$ in testing and the Mfg of the 912 engine since late 1989. 

How much of this do any of us have? Who has the facilities here to run an engine day in and out and the instruments to collect the data? 

Second maybe the rest of the old timers haven't caught up to newer ideas and technology, which is definitely the case in a lot of GA stuff. If you make a change you are liable and you have to invest tons of money for testing and STC's. That's one big reason you don't see big progressive changes in the GA engine stuff. 

If anyone chooses to experiment with their $18.5K engine then it's ok. This is also where they get good data on things not to do, from the guys that like to experiment. I think spending $3 on a little tube of heat conducting paste makes good sense and a good investment.

The plugs don't get hotter. All we are trying to do is make the heads and plugs heat and transfer of the heat the same. By doing so you get a better marriage between heads and plugs.



I don't quite understand why people are so reluctant to follow proven practices from an MFG that cost so little and is so easy. We have all invested so much time, money and education in our hobby, why stop on our on going educational process.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:35 am Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

Roger, I don't think this is about experimentation at all.  It's just that 

so often someone jumps in here with an absolute statement about something 

that needs to be done or something bad will happen.  I used the word "will" 

because that's how it usually comes across.  It seems that much of this 

comes from someone who read it somewhere on the internet so it makes us a 

bit skeptical and usually all we ask for is some data to back it up.  Other 

than Rotax says so, none has been provided here.



Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 438+ TT

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara

Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."

-- Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006) who actually 

earned it.--



---

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:01 am Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

Roger,



I can agree with a lot of what you said.  Then you finish with a comment on 

proven practices.  My suggestion here is that the vast majority of Rotax 

users have transferred their hot rod or home maintenance procedures to their 

Rotax engines and have simply used  anti sieze lube on thier plugs for at 

least 75% of probably millions of flight hours.



Then there is the apples and oranges thing.  Evans coolant has  become one 

of the latest Rotax recommendations (read rages).  Evans is a high temp 

coolant with a lower heat carrying capacity than the 50% blend traditionally 

used.  Why was it introduced?   Because in some installations, the Rotax 

engines have been found to run hotter than in other installations causing 

vapor pockets and damaged engines.  Rans, for example in some models, have 

cooling issues especially in climb.  I have followed some that used a 

protracted step climb to get over high mountains where the Kitfoxes in the 

flight simply climb to altitude.  Do I feel a need for Evans Coolant, of 

course not.  My problem always was to get the oil temps to the recommended 

212° to remove the moisture from the oil. I simply don't need a high temp 

coolant.



I think this argument can also be made for the heat sink compound.  Our 

engines, at least in the Model IV (I have no personal experience with the 

internal radiator found in the later models)  Our engines run on the cool 

side of the heat range.   I don't watch my sodium intake because my Blood 

Pressure runs on the low side.  What I mean by that last comment, is that 

there are very few pieces of advice where one size fits all.  Take the 912UL 

vs. the 912ULS, for example.  I suspect with the higher compression, the ULS 

will run a bit hotter.  It might be appropriate to consider a heat 

transferring lube on the plug threads, then again if my engine runs on the 

cool side, what's the point.  I had 900 hours on my old engine.  I changed 

the plugs at the recommended intervals and had the same boring insulator 

colors that everyone else had.  Did I damage my engine?  I seriously doubt 

it. But, then again, would I damage the water cooled head, or the $3.00 

spark plug if it wasn't cooled adequately.  And I repeat, Honda recommends 

name brand gas in my wife's Civic Hybrid.  The latest issue if AAA magazine 

quotes a petrolium engineer to the effect that with the EPA mandates on 

detergents etc. in all fuels, there is very little difference in brands and 

likely no difference at all because even the independents purchase their 

fuels on the open marked and might sell Chevron one day and Texaco the next.



I don't feel comfortable making decisions for others, but for me and my new 

project - 912UL - I see no need to worry about one more thing.



Lowell



---

sourdostan(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:27 am Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

Well stated, Lowell.  1600 hours on my 912ul using anti-sieze lube and everything appears to be doing well. 

 

  Stan Specht

  Model IV Speedster 912ul 1600 hrs.

  Lakewood, CO

 

 

 --

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:03 pm Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

Lowell:



I'm not sure but I think it is on the two stroke Rotax engines that the heat

sink compound is recommended.  A Couple of reasons could be:  



Two stroke engines have twice as many pulses per minute as a four stroke for

the same rpm so probably develop more heat on the heads and the heads being

aluminium may be able to deform easier than steel or iron heads.  To help

avoid any deformation the heat sink compound may be advisable.   However the

582 is liquid cooled so shouldn't need the extra protection of heat sink

compound.



The heads of the 582 are, I believe, aluminium and if this is the case it

may be an attempt to protect the threads from dissimilar metal corrosion.



As for anti seize compound; most of them use graphite as the lubricator..

this is ok if you are putting a steel or cadmium plated plug into a steel

head but carbon should in any form should not be used on aluminium.



When I was training we would not even mark sheet aluminium with a standard

lead pencil because it would eventually cause corrosion of the sheet.



Noel



--

_________________
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Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax spark plugs

I dont think it is an issue putting dry plugs into a 2 stroke..  a few million (atleast) running in this world seems to be a pretty good indication that there is not an issue with corrosion between the plug and head on a 2 stroke.  In the last 30 yrs of running 2 strokes I have never had an issue (other than some goober that must have installed the plugs with a 4' long cheater bar on the end) but that was not a corrosion issue.

_________________
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Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:30 pm Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

Lowell:

For what it's worth about a year ago I took a trip to Halifax, NS.  On my

way down through Cape Breton Island ( northern Nova Scotia) I bought gas,

very cheap gas, at an Indian reserve.  I don't know where they got their gas

or what they had added to it but I do know my Subaru popped, pinged and

farted until the tank was mostly empty and I could get some brand name go

juice into it.  That's the last time I'll buy gas in Baddeck.  BTW Baddeck

is the community where Alexander Graham Bell the inventor of the telephone

lived.  It was on the ice of Brador Lake that the first flight in Canada

took place 101 yr ago.



In this area of Newfoundland most of the gas arrives by tanker from Irving

Oil Co and is sold by all the gas companies.  The exception to the rule is

North Atlantic Petroleum which has a refinery about a hundred miles away

from here.  95% of North Atlantic's production is sold in the U.S. as far as

I know.



Noel



--

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Kitfox III-A
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Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax spark plugs

All the info I gave you is right out of the Rotax schools and the manuals. If you do it any different it isn't right. Yes it may work, but not to specs and against the Mfg's advice. I won't give you backyard mechanic advice and I won't try to save a buck and do it wrong.

All the info I gave you on plugs is in the Rotax manual or SB's. They didn't just pull their reasons out of a hat, they had good data to support it.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

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