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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

Roger,



I like to know who I am debating with.  Would you please post your Kitfox 

experience.  I have scanned all your previous posts and can't find your 

background.



Lowell



---

Av8r3400

Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 83
Location: North Central Wisconsin (KRRL)

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Rotax spark plugs

Isn't it a fact that the majority of the reams of service bulletins on these engines (900 series) and their associated (ever changing) maintenance requirements, stem from the military use of these engines in the Predator drones, operating at 120+ hp, 40k thousand feet, for 20, 30 and 40+ hour missions?



How many million motorcycle engines (What the 900 series is based on, with aluminum heads and NGK spark plugs) operate perfectly without the need for $300 heat-sink paste on their threads?

_________________
Thanks,
Av8r3400

Kitfox Model IV-1200 W/912UL & IVO
Kitfox Model IV-1050 W/912UL & Warp
YouTube Videos

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:22 pm Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

One more comment on this, while $150 is noticable, I understand the tube is 

90ml. Applied properly this is a hell of a lot of plugs, so you will likely 

only ever need one tube. There are eight plugs, using less than .5 ml 

(that's very generous) you will have enough for 25 sets of plugs. At 100 

hour intervals, you will be changing plugs once a year for an average active 

pilot. How old are most of us?

do not archive

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:22 pm Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

I know I'm going to hate myself for getting involved in this. There is no 

motorcycle engine out there that has even a passing resemblance to the Rotax 

912. Even if there were a motorcycle, car, hot rod engine operates at a 

small fraction of it's rated output except for short bursts. Typically a 

motorcycle engine of 1/2 the displacement of the 912 will put out up to 

1.75X the horsepower so the whole design philosophy is different. Outboard 

boat motors live a similar life, long periods of high output at a steady RPM 

and they also don't crank out quite the HP per CC as motorcycle engines.



I would put the service bulletins put out by Rotax down to the company 

trying to provide the best support they can based on the knowledge gained by 

field service. I hate to give them any credit because I think they are way 

overpriced, but they are doing an exceptional job of support.



Back to Rotax recommendations for heat sink compound. Anti seize grease (I 

use the silver kind) is not a heat conductor and is likely not the proper 

choice. I can't tell what CPS sells, but Leaf sells a Zinc/silicone product 

from MDG Chemicals. If you choose to use a non-rotax heat sink paste it will 

likely offer a pretty good anti seize property from the zinc and I would not 

discount the knowledge that CPS, Lockwood and LEAF bring to the field. Their 

aftermarket choices are probably pretty good.



So, IMHO you are not bound to use only Rotax products, there are cheaper 

alternatives. But seeing as you are operating an aircraft, choose carefully.



Do not archive



---

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax spark plugs

Hi Lowell,



What are my qualifications?

Not being a smart ass here, but just trying to give you my background.



Flying since 1980, started with Ultralights, did all my own maint and did research and development for several Ultralight Mfgs and third party add on Mfg's.

Flew Gyros for 4 years, then went to helicopters for 6 years then back to fixed wing. Over 4500 hours of flight time and closer to 6000 if you count Ultrlight time, plus maint, development and research for numerous Mfg's. After 7-8 Rotax schools over the years I am currently an authorized Rotax Repair Center. You can call Jeremy at CPS and see what he says about my credentials. I am a LSA repairman with a maint. rating and currently have people fly in to me from 6 different states so I can do their maint on their LSA's and Rotax engines.  They bypass all their A&P's for a reason and think the trip to me out weighs any mileage issues. I have people from all over the country call me everyday and some from around the world. I write some articles on different websites and help people with issues on at least 5 aircraft websites. I work on several types LSA so I have a very rounded education on LSA aircraft and converse with people who are on the LSA committees and who administer the LSA rules. I keep up on continuing education for anything LSA and Rotax. If you need references I have 40-50 I can give you including Mfg's. I do approximately 24-25 annuals a year on LSA's. There's more, but I hope this enough to put your mind at ease. 

The right way is what is in the Rotax manuals, SB's or taught in Rotax school. Any thing other than that is wrong and there is no way to argue  against what's in the Rotax or aircraft manual's. They are your bible's

from the Mfg's. If you do something other that what's in the manual then it is wrong. Really no way to argue against that other than someone saying I'm just going to do it my way and I don't care what the manual says. Then by all means have at it, I just try to help people do what is right and written in the manual and from almost 30 years of experience and try to keep people from making costly mistakes.



I get numerous calls from Kit fox owners from around the country for maint advice and tips on a regular basis.



I personally fly a Flight Design CTSW with a Rotax 912ULS with 500 hours on it. We have a few Kitfox's I work with on my field.



By the way keep you eyes open for the Dec. 13th release of new and revamped LSA rules and regs.



Fly safe, fly far, have fun!

I forgot to tell you what I do for my other fun stuff.



I'm an instructor for AZ. Homeland Security after 28 years as a Tucson firefighter.

I teach hazmat, bio and chemical weapons, Incident command system, national incident command system to county and city governments and teach them how to play nice with the Feds.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Last edited by Roger Lee on Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:06 pm; edited 2 times in total

paul perry

Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 36

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax spark plugs

Well, after doing some research on the product recomended by Rotax, it appears to be made by a company in Europe and is called Wacker P12. I could find no source for it in the U.S. except the Rotax part listed on Lockwood's website. CPS's website shows a silicone heat transfer compound made by a company called Rawn. I did find another supplier for it which appears much more affordable see: www.mcmelectronics.com/product/20-300 . They say this is a 28gm (1oz) size, which if correct would be very inexpensive even paying for shipping. LEAF shows a product as stated before made by MG Chemicals part no. 860-4 (the 4 designates it is the 4gm size). You can search for their website and from there find a supplier based on where you are located, but you may want to look at the following website: www.gatewaycatalog.com/ and follow the link under chemicals. They carry both the 4gm size as well as an 85 gm size part no 860-85. 

The large tube will cost about $25 incl shipping in the US, but that beats $150 by a lot. This company also has connectors/switches and other odds and ends that homebuilders may find useful. I can understand Rotax's position on recommending the product they have used/tested due to liability exposure etc and the lack of incentive for finding less expensive alternatives, but that doesn't mean there aren't any alternatives. I have not had any problems since changing plugs in my 912ul using an automotive  anti-seize product about 40 hours ago, but will most likely use one of the silicone products next time. 

 

    Paul Perry KF IV Speedster 912ul 140hrs tt (50 by me)

    Bloomfield,MO  [/code]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:47 pm Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

Would that (hopefully) be the new Sport Pilot rules, too....and would  

that (hopefully) include the increased altitude flying that some of  

us are hoping for?



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

do not archive



On Nov 18, 2009, at 8:21 PM, Roger Lee wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 By the way keep you eyes open for the Dec. 13th release of new and  

 revamped LSA rules and regs.



 Fly safe, fly far, have fun!



 --------

 Roger Lee

 Tucson, Az.

 Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

 Rotax Repair Center

 520-574-1080





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 73643#273643

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax spark plugs

Hi Paul,



Sounds like you did your homework. I use the one by MG Chemicals. I usually get the large tube and even as many plugs that I do a year it last a long time. The smaller one would most likely be good for an individual.

Lynn,

Yes the new and revamped rules for Sport Pilot are coming out and yes the 10K + 2k AGL is one of them. Also for those who care the re-vamped rule on SLSA to ELSA maint glitch is being changed for the individual owner. With the 16 hr. class you should be good to go for your own maint.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:47 pm Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

Hi Roger C as it seems like you have inside knowledge C and I'm not real patient by nature C do you happen to have a feeling for what they did with the one hour IFR training for the faster sport pilots?  Thanks C  Jim Chuk  Avids C Kitfox 4  Mn

[quote] Subject: Re: Rotax spark plugs

 From: ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com

 Date: Wed C 18 Nov 2009 19:15:26 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>

 Hi Paul C

 Sounds like you did your homework. I use the one by MG Chemicals. I usually get the large tube and even as many plugs that I do a year it last a long time. The smaller one would most likely be good for an individual.

 Lynn C

 Yes the new and revamped rules for Sport Pilot are coming out and yes the 10K + 2k AGL is one of them. Also for those who care the re-vamped rule on SLSA to ELSA maint glitch is being changed for the individual owner. With the 16 hr. class you should be good to go for your own maint.

 --------

 Roger Lee

 Tucson C Az.

 Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

 Rotax Repair Center

 520-574-1080

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273662#273662

========================> 

 		 	   		  Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:19 am Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

Roger, I understand you are in a debate here and it may be desirable to 

"win" rather than discuss but I can't completely agree with your stand here. 

It's too absolute. In the manual and the product sheet Rotax specifies only 

a single product is acceptable, the one they sell. Period. They also 

specifically dictate that NO other product is acceptable, because they have 

not tested or approved it. That is in their bulletins and by your posting is 

the only way that you will accept. That is fine as far as opinion goes, and 

in fact would be the standard as far as liability and warranty for Rotax but 

it hardly means that no other product will work. CPS, LEAF, and perhaps 

Lockwood are reputable dealers with experience and knowledge who sell 

alternatives. There are alternative and aftermarket rings, pistons, ignition 

modules seals and many other parts for these aircraft engines that are 

perfectly acceptable in service and are absolutely not approved by Rotax. 

Many people believe that in some cases these aftermarket parts are superior. 

If the product Rotax recommends becomes unavailable they would find another, 

despite the fact they had already declared that no other would be deemed 

acceptable. This has already happened.



I understand that you offer guidance based on your opinion and experience 

but I think you step a little too far when you declare that any variance is 

wrong, as you instantly condemn the other mentioned dealers every 

aftermarket manufacturer and perhaps even Rotax themselves. There are few 

absolutes in any field of endevour and they are usually pretty self evident.



Perhaps we can agree that conventional antiseize is not the best choice in 

this application and suggest using a more suitable alternative.



In my experience a declaration that "I am right" and "you are wrong and must 

admit it" just backs people into corners, starts arguments and inevitably 

ends in a reference to Nazis.

(oh dear, I've just argued against what is in the rotax manuals, I'm going 

to hell)



Do not archive



---

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:59 am Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

Roger,

  I for one highly respect your input. You pretty much mirror everything I have been taught about this engine in school. Your logical analysis of engine problems/querks during the course of this forum have greatly helped me ! Keep it coming, It is obvious that you know what you are talking about!

                                                           Dick Maddux

                                                           Fox 4-1200

                                                           912 UL

                                                           Milton,Fl

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Rotax spark plugs

Hi Guys,



My comment on what's in the Rotax manual is the difference between right and wrong and technically it is as far as Rotax goes, but you see I don't use the Rotax paste either if you read my last post. I use the one  from MG Chemicals. As far as what's in the manuals you or I can't really argue that because that's what's in writing. I do believe there are good after market things to use whether it be something simple such as the paste or some other part. For instance the oil pressure sender that Rotax wants you to use is a VDO sender with the anti vibration ring at about $245, but the exact same sender with out the anti vibration ring is $40. So in this instance we are wrong according to Rotax to use it, but it is perfectly acceptable to use this sender because it is the identical sender except for the metal ring. This is also supported by all the Rotax distributors here in the states.

So my point is I and or we can use other parts, I don't have any issue with that, but when swapping parts do it whit good forethought and a good educated reasoning that will still accomplish and meet Rotax's needs or specs. The paste we have been talking about needs to be thermal conducting and should be silicone based, but anti seize doesn't meet that spec. That was my whole issue for not using anti seize.

I don't believe Rotax has the best oil filter either there are at least 3 other better filters, but to be right you would have to use the one in the manual. I'm definitely not an absolute guy and I'm am a progressive and a person that researches and evaluates new stuff all the time and I believe at times there is something better that comes along that Rotax or a plane Mfg doesn't use or know about, but if I change something it is moving forward and for the better, no use doing something worse or going backward. Anti seize is going backward. You can use other heat conducting paste. In my first post that's all I said was use a heat conducting paste and was not brand specific.



I commend Paul because he did his homework and that's all it usually takes. When you change something not in the manual have a good reason for doing so. That said remember if you do do things not in the manual it could cost you your warranty if you are still in that phase.



I love these forums because I like to learn and help people, I truly dislike arguments or confrontations. I absolutely don't mind being questioned where or how I got info, but we are here I hope to help each other not blast the other guy because he is different. We are here to educate one another and keep our engines from failing prematurely and make each others life easier so history or those failures don't repeat themselves.

To me debates on ideas or products are good, just be kind to the other guy just as you would want someone to be towards you. We should be trying to make each person's road a little smoother and help each other over the pot holes.



Remember the Three Musketeers:

All for One and One for all.



Education, education, education

I'm 56 and still go to many schools for one thing or another very regularly. The mind is a terrible resource to waste.

Now let's get past this and start helping each other.



I'm in!

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Tommy Walker

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:27 am Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

Re Roger Lee's qualifications.

 

I've "known" Roger for several years on the Matronics Rotax list.   He is immeninently qualified and his advice is always spot on.  Just wish I  lived nearby so he could perform some of the maintenance I sometimes need.

  

 Tommy Walker in Alabama

 Do Not Archive

   [quote][b]

_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Rotax spark plugs

Thanks to many of you for the support. 

I won't ever say I'm always right because heaven forbid I'm certain wrong at times and will say so if I find out differently and pass it along so others can learn, too.

I try only to comment on Rotax issues or some components on this particular forum. I do not own a Kitfox, but do work on them. You will never see me give advise on a Kitfox fuselage because I believe you guy's know more than I do and I can learn from your discussions, which I do on a daily basis. So see you help me all the time so I try to pay back by helping with the Rotax or some components like props or brakes. We are all in aviation together and the more we learn about different things even if they don't directly affect us helps us understand other problems.



I'm all for finding more than one way to skin the proverbial cat so let's find out those ways together and merge our ideas on the educational level.



I'm too easy going to make life any harder.  LOL

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

wannafly

Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 53

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:10 am Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

well said

  

 do not archive

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Rotax spark plugs

 From: ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com

 Date: Thu C 19 Nov 2009 06:40:28 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>

 

 Hi Guys C

 

 My comment on what's in the Rotax manual is the difference between right and wrong and technically it is as far as Rotax goes C but you see I don't use the Rotax paste either if you read my last post. I use the one from MG Chemicals. As far as what's in the manuals you or I can't really argue that because that's what's in writing. I do believe there are good after market things to use whether it be something simple such as the paste or some other part. For instance the oil pressure sender that Rotax wants you to use is a VDO sender with the anti vibration ring at about $245 C but the exact same sender with out the anti vibration ring is $40. So in this instance we are wrong according to Rotax to use it C but it is perfectly acceptable to use this sender because it is the identical sender except for the metal ring. This is also supported by all the Rotax distributors here in the states.

 So my point is I and or we can use other parts C I don't have any issue with that C but when swapping parts do it whit good forethought and a good educated reasoning that will still accomplish and meet Rotax's needs or specs. The paste we have been talking about needs to be thermal conducting and should be silicone based C but anti seize doesn't meet that spec. That was my whole issue for not using anti seize.

 I don't believe Rotax has the best oil filter either there are at least 3 other better filters C but to be right you would have to use the one in the manual. I'm definitely not an absolute guy and I'm am a progressive and a person that researches and evaluates new stuff all the time and I believe at times there is something better that comes along that Rotax or a plane Mfg doesn't use or know about C but if I change something it is moving forward and for the better C no use doing something worse or going backward. Anti seize is going backward. You can use other heat conducting paste. In my first post that's all I said was use a heat conducting paste and was not brand specific.

 

 I commend Paul because he did his homework and that's all it usually takes. When you change something not in the manual have a good reason for doing so. That said remember if you do do things not in the manual it could cost you your warranty if you are still in that phase.

 

 I love these forums because I like to learn and help people C I truly dislike arguments or confrontations. I absolutely don't mind being questioned where or how I got info C but we are here I hope to help each other not blast the other guy because he is different. We are here to educate one another and keep our engines from failing prematurely and make each others life easier so history or those failures don't repeat themselves.

 To me debates on ideas or products are good C just be kind to the other guy just as you would want someone to be towards you. We should be trying to make each person's road a little smoother and help each other over the pot holes.

 

 Remember the Three Musketeers:

 All for One and One for all.

 

 

 

 Education C education C education

 I'm 56 and still go to many schools for one thing or another very regularly. The mind is a terrible resource to waste.

 

 --------

 Roger Lee

 Tucson C Az.

 Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

 Rotax Repair Center

 520-574-1080

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273706#273706

 

=======

 

 

 

 		 	   		  Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online.

pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:12 am Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

I vouch for Roger but he is not as good looking as I am.  (But I still use 

NAPA filters in my 912)



Pete



;>)

---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: Rotax spark plugs

While I can see why most of us here are willing to try other than approved products in out planes I can still see why Rotax requires that we use approved materials especially if there is warranty involved.  In cases where no warranty is involved there is the question of liability if they were to recommend an untested product.  In these days of ridiculous litigation I think they are doing the right thing.    

   

What I would say is to read the labels, read both sides of any discussion in the forums and decide accordingly.  Oh yes and be prepared to pay the penalty if we are wrong and use a so called not recommended material or procedure.    

   

In defense of Roger using recommended materials and procedures is cheap insurance.  

   

Noel  

   

--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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