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582 egt mismatch
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carlisle

Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Posts: 72
Location: Sioux Falls, SD

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:27 pm Post subject: 582 egt mismatch

Hi folks...I've been lurking for some time and finally need to chime in with a question.



My Model II Kitfox is almost 20 years old now and I've only put 150 hours on it.  I let it sit idle for 4 years without running the 582 Rotax and decided to resurrect it this summer.  Did a top overhaul and inspected the crank (didn't split the case), buttoned it up with new gaskets after decarbonizing everything and it runs fine.  When I had the cylinders off, everything looked spotless.  Good needle bearings on the con rods, etc.  Cylinders don't even look broken in with new looking crosshatching on the walls.



Problem is this.  Carbs won't match no matter what I do.  Front cylinder runs hotter all the time.  I've adjusted the jet needle, put in larger main jet (.175), matched the slides, etc and the fron always runs 100 to 150 deg hotter.  Plugs show it too.  The front ones are obviously leaner with only slight browning of the insulator.



So the question is, if my crank seals are failing, wouldn't that lean BOTH the carbs out or are these symptoms something else?

garyo1

Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Posts: 1
Location: Shafter, Kaliforneeya

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: 582 egt mismatch

As I recall, there is a center section between the halves of the engine that somewhat isolate the two chambers from each other. This is due to the two stroke needing to draw all of it's air from the crankcase, therefore the need for isolation. However there is some leakage so there is sufficient oil to the center bearings on the crankshaft.



To add to this would be the assumption that each seal would affect it's end of the engine and therefore the carb attached to that side.



I am not a Rotax tech but this is my understanding of the engine, FWIW.

_________________
GARY N ORPE
Backwardsville, CA., USA

carlisle

Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Posts: 72
Location: Sioux Falls, SD

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: 582 egt mismatch

Hmm.  Didn't know this.  Thought the 2 crankcase halves communicated.  Not looking good for a simple explanation.  



Also, I rebuilt the carbs and have switched them too and it makes no difference.  



Any way to change the PTO side seal without splitting the crankcase?

bob(at)fly-ul.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:41 pm Post subject: 582 egt mismatch

On 05:08 PM 6/20/2009, carlisle wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hmm.  Didn't know this.  Thought the 2 crankcase halves communicated.  Not looking good for a simple explanation.  


	


Think about it... you basically have two "one cylinder" engines bolted together. They do NOT share a common crankcase. The engine wouldn't work, if it did!

--

Bob Comperini

e-mail: bob(at)fly-ul.com

WWW: http://www.fly-ul.com

icrashrc

Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Mishawaka, In

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:37 am Post subject: Re: 582 egt mismatch

Have you tried swapping EGT probes and /or gauges?

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Scott

www.ill-EagleAviation.com

do not archive

carlisle

Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Posts: 72
Location: Sioux Falls, SD

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:50 am Post subject: Re: 582 egt mismatch

Swapped the probes and even replaced them.  Only thing I haven't done is replace the gauge although judging by the color of the plugs (white insulator only faintly browned with soot) it's probably fairly accurate.  Even took my little non contact/laser thermometer to the exhaust man's and it verifies the difference.  Carbs were rebuilt and cleaned too.



I understand from a friend with a 532 that the front crank seal can be replaced on the plane with the engine in the aircraft.  Is this true?  I've never had the gearbox off and it might be a good excuse to do that and inspect things anyway but I need a link for confidence.

K Dilks

Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 108
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: 582 egt mismatch

 	  carlisle wrote: 	
		  Swapped the probes and even replaced them.  Only thing I haven't done is replace the gauge although judging by the color of the plugs (white insulator only faintly browned with soot) it's probably fairly accurate.  Even took my little non contact/laser thermometer to the exhaust man's and it verifies the difference.  Carbs were rebuilt and cleaned too.



I understand from a friend with a 532 that the front crank seal can be replaced on the plane with the engine in the aircraft.  Is this true?  I've never had the gearbox off and it might be a good excuse to do that and inspect things anyway but I need a link for confidence. 	


 No you cant as there is a lip on the seal. Folks do this then the new seal blows out......

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n757jh

Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 2

Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:36 am Post subject: Re: 582 egt mismatch

All,



Sorry to revive a dormant thread, but I'm having a similar problem and wonder if this was resolved and what the problem was.  Recently rebuilt 582, EGT difference 200-300F with front cyl being hotter.  Problem started showing up on first flight around the pattern when front cyl reached 1300F.



Joanne

Blumax008(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:47 am Post subject: 582 egt mismatch

In a message dated 11/23/2009 12:37:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  n757jh(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Recently    rebuilt 582, EGT difference 200-300F with front cyl being hotter.     Problem started showing up on first flight around the pattern when front cyl    reached 1300F. 	


 

 Is that Joanne or Johann? If it's Johann, are you from South Africa?

  

 Anyway, this is the guy with the "swelling Viton tip"...we think. When my  carb first started overflowing out of the vent tube, I found the the EGT on  that cylinder would rise about 200 EGT. It was a very reliable indicator of fuel  venting. Why? I don't know. But everytime the temp went up, I could see a stream  of fuel trailing me...(Trike). However it never got to 1300 like it did with  you....about 1200 max with me but kept running just fine...until it quit from  fuel starvation last week.

  

 Keep in mind this Viton tip swelling is just an idea so far...but what the  heck else can it be? We've done everything possible from compression checks,  visual cylinder inspections, complete changing of fuel lines, filter & fuel  pump, pump location & orientation. Everything but overhauling the damn  engine! We also know positive it's not electrical.

  [quote][b]

n757jh

Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 2

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: Re: 582 egt mismatch

I think I've ruled out carbs as a cause by swapping carb bodies and replacing the inline fuel filters yesterday.  Still 200F hotter on the front cylinder.



I rebuilt my carbs at 100 hrs, the Viton tip is one of the parts that gets replaced.  Never had problems with fuel venting like yours.  Sorry I can't be helpful.



Joanne

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:03 pm Post subject: 582 egt mismatch

My guess is that you have an air leak C probably from a leaking seal.  One way to test for air leaks is to preasure test your engine.  Basicly C what it amounts to is you seal off the intake and exhaust manifolds so they can't leak air C and then pump 5 lbs of air into the crankcase.  The engine should be able to hold air for a while.  Quoting from the article in Ultralight Flying Nov. 1986 that discussed this procedure C "a perfectly sealed engine will hold preasure overnight.  Most engines will leak a little C perhaps losing 1 to 2 PSi in a 5 minute period".  If you want C I could send you the article.  It is easy to make a tester C some 1/4" plastic line C a T C a low preasure air gauge C and a bloodpreasure tester bulb to pump the air up and the valve it has to hold the air in.  The air is pumped in through the pulse line port for the fuel pump.  Take care C  Jim Chuk

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: 582 egt mismatch

 From: n757jh(at)yahoo.com

 Date: Thu C 26 Nov 2009 09:17:04 -0800

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

 --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "n757jh" <n757jh(at)yahoo.com>

 I think I've ruled out carbs as a cause by swapping carb bodies and replacing the inline fuel filters yesterday. Still 200F hotter on the front cylinder.

 I rebuilt my carbs at 100 hrs C the Viton tip is one of the parts that gets replaced. Never had problems with fuel venting like yours. Sorry I can't be helpful.

 Joanne

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274956#274956

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john beirne

Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: 582 egt mismatch

Hi

Will pressurizing the crankcase thru the pump pulse port only pressurise the rear half of the crankcase?

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:06 pm Post subject: 582 egt mismatch

Yes if the seal between the two sides on the crank holds.  There should be a port on the front half of the crankcase also.  On second thought C I can't say that for sure on the 582 C I know there is a port on front and rear of a 447.  You could plug the pulse port and put fittings in the intake plugs and pump the air in there.  Jim Chuk

 

[quote] Subject: Re: 582 egt mismatch

 From: jmcb(at)oceanfree.net

 Date: Thu C 26 Nov 2009 15:01:06 -0800

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "john beirne" <jmcb(at)oceanfree.net>

 

 Hi

 Will pressurizing the crankcase thru the pump pulse port only pressurise the rear half of the crankcase?

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274996#274996

 

 

 

 

 > _========================

 

 

 

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aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:57 am Post subject: 582 egt mismatch

I have had the EGTs reading different but probably not as fare apart  as 

yours are.I swapped the probes around and they came right { read the same }I 

put this down to carbon build up on the probes ,this could be the result of 

a slight mixture difference in the carbs . This has happened at about 100 

hour intervals on a 503 that works hard on a MK111c

---

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:15 am Post subject: Re: 582 egt mismatch

Have you swapped sensors, front to back and vice versa to see if the sensors may be contributing to or the major cause of the differential?

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Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:48 pm Post subject: 582 egt mismatch

Joanne:



Are both the plugs on the hotter cylinder much lighter than the plugs on the

cooler cylinder?



Since the carbs are set up to make the engine run much richer at the idle

the best thing to do is to have a look at the plugs with as little idling as

possible after a flight.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject: 582 egt mismatch

Better than plugs, although a bit more work, drop the exhaust and look in the Y pipe and the tops of the pistons for a major difference in appearance.



Rick Girard



On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)>

  

 Joanne:

 

 Are both the plugs on the hotter cylinder much lighter than the plugs on the

 cooler cylinder?

 

 Since the carbs are set up to make the engine run much richer at the idle

 the best thing to do is to have a look at the plugs with as little idling as

 possible after a flight.

 

 Noel

 

 --

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Tom Beirne

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 13
Location: Ireland

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: 582 egt mismatch

 	  Quote: 	
		  Anyway, this is the guy with the "swelling Viton tip"...we think. When my  carb first started overflowing out of the vent tube, I found the the EGT on  that cylinder would rise about 200 EGT. It was a very reliable indicator of fuel  venting. Why? I don't know. But everytime the temp went up, I could see a stream  of fuel trailing me...(Trike). However it never got to 1300 like it did with  you....about 1200 max with me but kept running just fine...until it quit from  fuel starvation last week.

  

 Keep in mind this Viton tip swelling is just an idea so far...but what the  heck else can it be? We've done everything possible from compression checks,  visual cylinder inspections, complete changing of fuel lines, filter & fuel  pump, pump location & orientation. Everything but overhauling the damn  engine! We also know positive it's not electrical. 	




Just happened to be reading some light rotax informational literature when I came across this http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part2.pdf

Under the image of the carb on the first page in the section titled "What to do if you have a fuel supply problem". The interesting bit is is where it says



"Test the fuel pressure output at the carb. It should be between 2.9psi and 7.2psi. Below 2.9psi the fuel bowl will starve. Above 7.2psi the float valve will be overpowered and fuel will start to flow out the vent tubes."

nickjaxe

Joined: 03 Sep 2011
Posts: 3
Location: England

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:57 am Post subject: Re: 582 egt mismatch

I know this is a very old post but I would be interested if a cure was ever found....I did think maybe the ignition timing maybe set wrong on one side,



Or maybe an incorrect jet or needle number....even the floats not set at equal hight.



Nick.

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I always feel so privileged to be able to fly my own aircraft.

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:08 pm Post subject: 582 egt mismatch

 	  Quote: 	
		  Enjoy it while you can Nick.  Our privileges are rights are slowly being taken away from us.

 	




Barry 

[quote] --------

 I always feel so privileged to be able to fly my own aircraft.

 

 

 

 

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