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Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:19 am Post subject: 912 hoses and clamps

The coolant hoses on my 912UL are almost 17 years old now and they are long over do for a change. I need 6 ft of 17mm hose . You can't buy this size anywhere in my area and to buy it from a Rotax distributer it is almost $120 ! (for 2 meters) That is a bit much for hose. The prior owner used 5/8 inch heater hose (15.9 mm) If that is the only why that I can do it, I will, but I would much prefer to use the proper size hose.

  I would also like to use the "proper" Corbin wire spring clamps rather than the standard auto hose clamps that are now on the engine. These wire clamps were listed at over $5 a piece from the same dealer and I need 16 !

  Does anyone know of a good source for quality hoses and clamps ?

                                                       Thanks

                                                               Dick Maddux

                                                               Kitfox 4

                                                               912UL

                                                                Milton,Fl

  [quote][b]

Tom463(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:45 am Post subject: 912 hoses and clamps

Hydraulic House

 1342 W. Church St.

 Orlando, Fl 32805

 407 422 2317

  

 They also sell Areoquip fuel lines.

  

 Tom

 N569AT

  [quote][b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:49 am Post subject: 912 hoses and clamps

I'm running Samco silicone hoses on my 582. Good stuff, although a little pricey though nothing like Rotax prices. I bought from them because I needed reducers to adapt my Honda Sabre radiator. 



http://www.sporthoses.com/

 



[url=http://www.sporthoses.com/][/url]You can even be color coordinated.

Rick Girard



On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 7:27 AM,  <Tom463(at)aol.com (Tom463(at)aol.com)> wrote:

 [quote]     Hydraulic House

 1342 W. Church St.

 Orlando, Fl 32805

 407 422 2317

  

 They also sell Areoquip fuel lines.

  

 Tom

 N569AT

   	  Quote: 	
		  



_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

tp://forums.matronics.com



	




[b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:23 am Post subject: 912 hoses and clamps

Thanks Tom and Richard I will check these two places out

                                               Dick Maddux

                                               Milton,Fl

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:34 am Post subject: 912 hoses and clamps

The Rotax coolant hoses used to be marked as "heater hose" which 'gives  away the game' in that these were not special.

  

 From new I replaced my bottom hoses with nomex-reinforced silicone (which  is only 16mm internal diameter) with no ill effect, and because I needed more  heat resistance in proximity to the underslung exhaust. But the cost was USD1.50  per inch; similar cost to the Rotax-supplied heater hose! Also, the  standard clamps are then too big for the smaller external diameter of this hose,  unless packed-out.

  

 It surprises me that there have been no problems with the higher  temperatures reached with Evans and the standard Rotax heater hose, which  probably has only polyester reinforcing (not very heat resistant).

 Duncan McF

 [quote]   ---

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:51 am Post subject: Re: 912 hoses and clamps

[quote="ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv"]The Rotax coolant hoses used to be marked as "heater hose" which 'gives  away the game' in that these were not special.

  

 From new I replaced my bottom hoses with nomex-reinforced silicone (which  is only 16mm internal diameter) with no ill effect, and because I needed more  heat resistance in proximity to the underslung exhaust. But the cost was USD1.50  per inch; similar cost to the Rotax-supplied heater hose! Also, the  standard clamps are then too big for the smaller external diameter of this hose,  unless packed-out.

  

 It surprises me that there have been no problems with the higher  temperatures reached with Evans and the standard Rotax heater hose, which  probably has only polyester reinforcing (not very heat resistant).

 Duncan McF

  	  Quote: 	
		     --- 	




The brand is actually written on it too - it's Gates heater hose. Unfortunately it doesn't even seem to be available from Gates themselves, at least in the US, as an endless search of the Gates website ended up yielding nothing the last time I tried to find it there. It does seem to be available from Gates Europe. This is probably why it costs so much here - Rotax dealers are buying it over there, importing it and the USD/EUR exchange rate, import fees, etc., are probably what drives the price up to the ridiculous 60 bucks/meter.



You can also find a DIN standard that the hose meets written on the side of it. It turns out this is a German heater hose standard, so I suspect that's why Rotax wants you to use this particular hose.



I went ahead and bought 2 meters of it for the shocking 120 or so bucks, since the search for similar 17mm id heater hose here in the US was coming up snake-eyes and also was beginning to approach that cost in terms of aggravation. I'm very reticent to use the wrong size hose (5/8 or 16mm) for this as the extra stress on the ends can cause cracking over a long period of time, the spring clamps don't fit etc......



My hoses are at about 5 years, but I'm going "on condition" on them as they don't show any signs of cracking and are still quite pliable. I'm still planning to replace the lot this coming summer tho because the other coolant hoses are going to need replacing anyway. So just going to do the lot all at once....



I figure that if I get another reliable 5 years out of the new hose, the 120 bucks for it will be down in the noise of the cost of 5 years of operation, so I'm not too upset about it and I know I have the right size/grade hose on it.....

LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:27 am Post subject: 912 hoses and clamps

LS,

   I am pretty much of the same mindset as you are. I have looked everywhere for 17mm ID heater hoses and have not found them here in the US. Even the hose companies mentioned by some of the members, don't list them. I too will reluctantly pay the $120 for two meters of this hose from the Rotax dealer. I had thought about covering the hoses with fire sleeve where it comes in close proximity to the muffler. What type of clamps are you using? The Corbin (wire style) or the standard automotive gear style? Lockwood recommends the Corbin but the parts book shows both and the prior owner of my engine used the gear type. 

  Thanks,

                           Dick Maddux

                           Kitfox 4

                           912UL

                           Milton,Fl

  [quote][b]

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 797

Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:12 am Post subject: 912 hoses and clamps

Hi DickI am not flying with my 914 Europa yet, but have silicone hoses for cooling and turbo intercooler.I purchased from a guy I think in Sweden, Europa has some custom needed hoses. I am trying to use as many spring type clamps as possable.Search Silicone hoses: http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=9McMaster has some spring clips:www.mcmaster.comalso have a look at these places for hose and clips and other cooling stuff:http://www.sporthoses.com/parts/http://www.dockingengineering.com/http://www.summitracing.com/?Ntt=silicone+hose&N=700+115&Nao=100&Ntk=KeywordSearchhttp://rotorclip.com/http://www.highwingllc.com/radiatorshutters.htmlRon ParigorisBTW I purchased clip tool from McMaster, worth it, a lot cheapier and hurts a lot less than loosing an eye. A lot of energy in those clips once compressed.   [quote][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:43 am Post subject: Re: 912 hoses and clamps

[quote="Dick Maddux"]LS,

   I am pretty much of the same mindset as you are. I have looked everywhere for 17mm ID heater hoses and have not found them here in the US. Even the hose companies mentioned by some of the members, don't list them. I too will reluctantly pay the $120 for two meters of this hose from the Rotax dealer. I had thought about covering the hoses with fire sleeve where it comes in close proximity to the muffler. What type of clamps are you using? The Corbin (wire style) or the standard automotive gear style? Lockwood recommends the Corbin but the parts book shows both and the prior owner of my engine used the gear type. 

  Thanks,

            ï¿½           ï¿½  Dick Maddux

            ï¿½           ï¿½  Kitfox 4

            ï¿½           ï¿½  912UL

            ï¿½           ï¿½  Milton,Fl

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	




Hi Dick,



Well, I'm probably going to let Rotax put it to me on this too and just get a set of the Rotax spring clamps. I have the original clamps on there since the hoses are from when the engine was new, but it occurs to me it's probably not a good idea to reuse them.



I'm told the spring clamps are the only type you want to use here, so I'm erring on the side of conservatism on that. 



Going to be a bit expensive in the end, but hey, it always is.....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:23 am Post subject: 912 hoses and clamps

I bought silicone  hoses from a truck parts house.  I paid $5/FT for 1 foot but later decided  to do the whole engine and I paid about $2/Ft for a enough to  finish.

   [quote][b]

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:51 am Post subject: 912 hoses and clamps

Ron and LS thanks for the info !! It looks like McMaster is going to have the spring clamps I need and the price is much cheaper ! ( about $10 for a package of 25 vs $5 ea. at Rotax ! ) 

  I saw a Rotax engine on a new Paradise the other day and it had the Constant-Tension spring band clamps. These look real nice also and provide a wider clamping area. I might go with that as the price is about the same but they might not apply as much clamping pressure.

  Looks like it's Rotax hose though as combing thru the additional websites only gave me sae sizes and no metric.

    Thanks for all your help !

                                                Dick Maddux

                                                Milton,Fl

  [quote][b]

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:43 am Post subject: Re: 912 hoses and clamps

Dick,



A couple of points.

Any heater hose will work, silicone is nice, reinforced is nice but

way above spec.  Remember, the coolant cap pops off at 1.2 bar.

Why would you want 10 or 50 bar reinforced hose??  Personally

I think flexibility is paramount



16 mm fits fine if it is silicone. I don't know if nomex will hand stretch to 17.



All polymer hose (including rubber and plastics) should be firesleeved fire-wall forward. Per AC43!



The wire clips are not better from an engineering standpoint than stainless

wormgear standard clamps.



At Oshkosh and SnF, there is a vendor who sells a tool that lets you

make your own (non springy) wire clamps.  I asked Dean (at Lockwood)

about it last year, He said he has one and will on occassion use it.

Good Luck!



Ira

_________________
Ira N224XS

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:14 am Post subject: Re: 912 hoses and clamps

 	  rampil wrote: 	
		  Dick,



A couple of points.

Any heater hose will work, silicone is nice, reinforced is nice but

way above spec.  Remember, the coolant cap pops off at 1.2 bar.

Why would you want 10 or 50 bar reinforced hose??  Personally

I think flexibility is paramount



16 mm fits fine if it is silicone. I don't know if nomex will hand stretch to 17.



All polymer hose (including rubber and plastics) should be firesleeved fire-wall forward. Per AC43!



The wire clips are not better from an engineering standpoint than stainless

wormgear standard clamps.



At Oshkosh and SnF, there is a vendor who sells a tool that lets you

make your own (non springy) wire clamps.  I asked Dean (at Lockwood)

about it last year, He said he has one and will on occassion use it.

Good Luck!



Ira 	




Not really meaning to be pedantic here, but ... 



The installation manual for the 912 series is very specific about the requirements for the cooling hose (section 12.6 for quick reference). A minimum of 5 bar (73 psi) pressure durability is required and of course that's a minimum. So if it meets that as well as the temperature and fluids requirements, you should be good to go.



Also, I personally would accept any suitable substitute on the hose _except_ the wrong size hose. Too small of a hose puts more than design stress on the hose where it goes over the fitting and this eventually increases the risk of cracking and failure in this area. 



Don't ask me why I know this about the hose.



Skimping here for a few bucks on the hose could cost upwards of 20 large or higher later on, so this is a good area to not disobey 



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:18 am Post subject: Re: 912 hoses and clamps

Lucien,



Some hoses are engineered to stretch over hose barb fittings,

in fact thats how barbs work. Other hoses are not.



For example, I would like to convert my fuel system to Aeroquip 666

teflon/carbon hose. This stuff does not stretch at all within the limits of

human strength, so it can not go over rotax standard hose barbs and I 

do not feel like converting all the fitting to NAS.



Silicone hose on the other hand is designed to stretch and 16 instead of 

17 mm is only 5% expansion.  The barb rings are probably more than 5%



As for burst strength. I said heater hose which is all a couple of bar.

I was the expensive reinforced hose I was commenting on as not a

useful use of funds.  If the pressure anywhere in the system goes to 10

bar, due to an obstruction and not reaching the cap, then flow and

cooling is blocked, just as bad as loss of coolant.



PS, a 900 series engine will run for 30 min or more with no coolant.

A 900 series engine will run for 1 minute or less with no oil before

serious damage according to many sources.  Spend your money on

good oil hose!

_________________
Ira N224XS

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:51 am Post subject: 912 hoses and clamps

Ira

I thought spring clips were preferred (by Rotax) because when the 

polymer hose relaxes with heat it reduces the clip pressure and a spring 

takes up most of the slack, whereas a worm drive clip doesn't until 

chastised with a screw driver?

Be interested in the vendor you mention?

Graham



rampil wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The wire clips are not better from an engineering standpoint than stainless

 wormgear standard clamps.



 At Oshkosh and SnF, there is a vendor who sells a tool that lets you

 make your own (non springy) wire clamps.  I asked Dean (at Lockwood)

 about it last year, He said he has one and will on occassion use it.



 Ira

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:13 am Post subject: Re: 912 hoses and clamps

 	  rampil wrote: 	
		  Lucien,



Some hoses are engineered to stretch over hose barb fittings,

in fact thats how barbs work. Other hoses are not.



For example, I would like to convert my fuel system to Aeroquip 666

teflon/carbon hose. This stuff does not stretch at all within the limits of

human strength, so it can not go over rotax standard hose barbs and I 

do not feel like converting all the fitting to NAS.



Silicone hose on the other hand is designed to stretch and 16 instead of 

17 mm is only 5% expansion.  The barb rings are probably more than 5%



As for burst strength. I said heater hose which is all a couple of bar.

I was the expensive reinforced hose I was commenting on as not a

useful use of funds.  If the pressure anywhere in the system goes to 10

bar, due to an obstruction and not reaching the cap, then flow and

cooling is blocked, just as bad as loss of coolant.

	




All I'm saying is I like to use the right equipment and acceptable substitutes wherever possible, even if it means spending a little extra money. If you use the wrong size hose, well, it's your engine. To me, too small sized coolant hose is not an acceptable substitute.



I simply prefer not to take extra risks like that when there's a way to not have to take them.



My 912 also has the non-FAR 33/ASTM fittings on the oil tank and carburettors and I also have forgone upgrading the fittings to use the aeroquip line. I use tygothane line and small worm clamps for the fuel as well as push-on oil lines for the oil. That's acceptable to me, tho, because I'm accustomed to using the stuff and have for 10 years with no problems. You do have to change the lines out about every 2 years, but that's not too hard to do on my plane.



But just for me personally, I draw the line at using the wrong size hose on engine/flight/life critical parts like coolant hoses. But that's just me. YMMV.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

PS, a 900 series engine will run for 30 min or more with no coolant.

A 900 series engine will run for 1 minute or less with no oil before

serious damage according to many sources.  Spend your money on

good oil hose! 	




Is the engine reusable after that 30 mins tho? I've always been curious about that, tho I'd assume not.  So I try to use the right hoses for both oil and coolant.... but thats just me like I said...



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:33 am Post subject: 912 hoses and clamps

OEM cars/trucks use the spring type which are properly called 

constant force clamps. and you are correct, they keep a constant 

force on the hose to compensate for the relaxation of the 

elastomer/rubber hoses. Change the hose from the OEM product then the 

constant force clamps must change accordingly to match the new hose. 

Thus we all use the worm gear equal design and tighten them 

occasionally. Barbed fittings grab the hose and removal almost always 

destroys the hose. This is why OEM auto people use beaded ends 

instead of barb. All the hose connections on my plane and my off road 

truck use beaded tube ends at the hose attachment. I also use fuel 

injection clamps instead of the worm gear clamps because they are 

rated an higher pressure than the worm gear ones. Go to any auto 

store and compare them to what you are using.

Paul

===============

At 09:38 AM 11/30/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

<grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>

Ira

I thought spring clips were preferred (by Rotax) because when the 

polymer hose relaxes with heat it reduces the clip pressure and a 

spring takes up most of the slack, whereas a worm drive clip doesn't 

until chastised with a screw driver?

Be interested in the vendor you mention?

Graham

rampil wrote:

>The wire clips are not better from an engineering standpoint than stainless

>wormgear standard clamps.

>

>At Oshkosh and SnF, there is a vendor who sells a tool that lets you

>make your own (non springy) wire clamps.  I asked Dean (at Lockwood)

>about it last year, He said he has one and will on occassion use it.

>

>Ira

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 797

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:19 am Post subject: 912 hoses and clamps

Hi Graham> I thought spring clips were preferred (by Rotax) because when the > polymer hose relaxes with heat it reduces the clip pressure and a spring > takes up most of the slack, whereas a worm drive clip doesn't until > chastised with a screw driver? **Think you are spot on. Then after a while of tightening to stop leaks you end up ruining the hose as you mash it up, don't have to tell you that.> Be interested in the vendor you mention? **www.mcmaster.com sells them, they call them ear hose clamps:http://www.mcmaster.com/#ear-hose-clamps/=4qbq5cDon;'t quite remember but Okita, Ortega something close to this is one mfg. one neat clamp that auro high performance places sell is pretty much a removable version of these clamps, you ratchet spring them together with a pair of pliers, and can remove them by pushing sideways. i don't know mfg. name, but SK or SKF Speed stores sell them in New York.Ron Parigoris   [quote][b]

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 797

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:22 am Post subject: 912 hoses and clamps

Hi Ira" PS, a 900 series engine will run for 30 min or more with no coolant."Not completly true, A 900 engine will cease to run almost immediate if it injests steam from a failed hose. It can come back to life just at the wrong moment.Ron Parigoris   [quote][b]

l_luv2_fly(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:53 am Post subject: 912 hoses and clamps

Hi All,



I thought that Rotax changed to CTC clamps, in part as a response to the formal report on Graham's accident.  My engine that was delivered in 2003 had them fitted, however, I just had some work done at Rotax service center and they used screw clamps and the hose was branded "Gates Heater Hose".



I am going changing over to silicon hoses and CTC clamps for the water pump because last winter it leaked due to thermal contraction.  Mind you winters in the Mid West are pretty darn cold and last year particularly so.



Cheers,  Paul





From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, November 30, 2009 11:38:56 AM

Subject: Re: Re: 912 hoses and clamps



 --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)>



Ira

I thought spring clips were preferred (by Rotax) because when the 

polymer hose relaxes with heat it reduces the clip pressure and a spring 

takes up most of the slack, whereas a worm drive clip doesn't until 

chastised with a screw driver?

Be interested in the vendor you mention?

Graham



rampil wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The wire clips are not better from an engineering standpoint than stainless

 wormgear standard clamps.



 At Oshkosh and SnF, there is a vendor who sells a tool that lets you

 make your own (non springy) wire clamps.  I asked Dean (at Lockwood)

 about it last year, He said he has one and will on occassion use it.



 Ira



    


	


         [quote][b]

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