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HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:51 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Say your out on a cross country with one leg home and you have stoped for gas. You get back to the airplane and for some reason your air supply (and not the band) is gone. Can you use the air from a tank that say the FBO uses to fill tires with? I know it is loaded with moisture but would it be ok to use just enough to get you airborne, on the compressor, and home?



I HAVE NOT DONE THIS! I was just curious. 



Gus, still looking for that pic and parts list for your bottle.

pa3arw(at)euronet.nl
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:18 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

If the fbo uses pneumatic tools then the air must be dry to avoid damage to

his tools so then it would be possible. BUT: I don't think it is because

pneumatic tools can only cope with a max. of 10 bars and that is way off the

minimum needed 25 bars. 

Further: I assume that a fbo doesn't have at least 25 bars (preferably 50)

available in his compressor tank for tires. If he would have a tank of that

kind he would probably have a lot more than the 50 bars (more like 200bars)

you need, and if that would be the case it is most probably dried air. So

with a reducer you could carefully fill your tank...assuming you have the

right hoses.....so....why not ask the fire brigade for one of their air

bottles??



Hans

Dutch Yak Pilot

 

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----

Van: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] Namens Tim Gagnon

Verzonden: dinsdag 11 april 2006 15:52

Aan: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Onderwerp: Air.....in an emergency.






Say your out on a cross country with one leg home and you have stoped for

gas. You get back to the airplane and for some reason your air supply (and

not the band) is gone. Can you use the air from a tank that say the FBO uses

to fill tires with? I know it is loaded with moisture but would it be ok to

use just enough to get you airborne and on the compressor and home?



I HAVE NOT DONE THIS! I was just curious. 



Gus, still looking for that pic and parts list for your bottle.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27547#27547

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:21 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

The answer is  yes.  The compressor on you engine will put in as much moisture as that air  tank.  The "snot valve" does not remove all the moisture from the  compressor air, nor does the filter and neither does the drain on the  belly.  JUST DO NOT USE PURE QXYGEN.

 Jim "Pappy"  Goolsby

  

  

 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon"  <NiftyYak50(at)msn.com>



Say your out on a cross country with one leg  home and you have stoped for gas. You get back to the airplane and for some  reason your air supply (and not the band) is gone. Can you use the air from a  tank that say the FBO uses to fill tires with? I know it is loaded with moisture  but would it be ok to use just enough to get you airborne and on the compressor  and home?



I HAVE NOT DONE THIS! I was just curious. 



Gus, still  looking for that pic and parts list for your  bottle.

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:26 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Tim,

A compressor used to fill tires typically will only go to about 120 PSI 

which will not be enough to air start the engine.  You will need about 20-25 

Atmospheres to air start the engine, which is 300 PSI +.   I wouldn't waste 

my time with a low pressure compressor.   What I would try with no 

guarantees it will start (but it will rotate) is use the FBO's nitrogen 

bottle if you have a Schrader valve adapter for your external air fill port. 

I put Schrader valve fittings on all my airplanes.



Lastly, you can hand prop the airplane making sure the airplane is tied down 

and chocked because you won't have any brakes.  Hand prop from behind the 

prop on the left side of the cowling.  You'll need two people to do it.  One 

to pull the prop down and the Yak knowledgeable person on the inside 

starting the airplane the same way he would if there were air in the tank. 

The person pulling the prop is acting like the air start.

Dennis



---

wade154(at)frontiernet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:37 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Should that scenario happen to me I would tie the plane down (no brakes)

chock it and prop it, I've prop started my plane by myself and fellow Yakers

also. It's also highly advised to have some one competent in the cockpit and

at the prop. The better question is why did all the air leak out, that's a

really big air leak



Bill Wade

N4450Y



---

JBernier(at)dart.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:53 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Question. When hand propping, would it be advisable to use the shower of sparks? Explain why or not.

Jim B



 	  Quote: 	
		  >> wade154(at)frontiernet.net 04/11/06 9:36 AM >>>

	




Should that scenario happen to me I would tie the plane down (no brakes)

chock it and prop it, I've prop started my plane by myself and fellow Yakers

also. It's also highly advised to have some one competent in the cockpit and

at the prop. The better question is why did all the air leak out, that's a

really big air leak



Bill Wade

N4450Y



---

wade154(at)frontiernet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:13 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

It depends on that particular airplanes mags if they produce a strong spark

at the turn of the prop. The shower is not controlled by the mag its

controlled by the battery and is continuous as long as the start button is

pressed. BUT BE ADVISED THAT IF YOU HIT THE START BUTTON IT COULD START WITH

JUST THE GAS IN THE CYLINDERS and if there is a guy holding the prop ready

to pull he may get caught off guard and swept up in the moment NOT ADVISED,

but does aid in starting with weak mags.



Bill Wade

N4450Y

---

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:25 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Jim Bernier wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Question. When hand propping, would it be advisable to use the shower of sparks? Explain why or not.


	


Why? Because it won't start if you don't. When you turn the engine by 

hand it is moving far too slowly for the mags to actually generate 

enough voltage for a spark. The boost coil is actually powered by the 

battery and produces full output.



If you have carefully primed the engine (prime and pull through) and you 

have positioned one cylinder just past TDC, hitting the start button may 

actually start the engine without any air as the mixture in that one 

cylinder ignites and turns the engine over enough to get to the next 

cylinder's firing point.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:50 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Yes, of course.  Push the start button just prior to pulling the prop. 

Remember the person pulling the prop is now the air start.  So try starting 

it exactly the same as if you did have air in the tank.

Dennis



---

BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:47 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

 "the wades" <wade154(at)frontiernet.net> "Bill Wade" said:    

 	  Quote: 	
		  It depends on that particular airplanes mags if they produce a strong spark 

at the turn of the prop. The shower is not controlled by the mag its 

controlled by the battery and is continuous as long as the start button is 

pressed.  

BUT BE ADVISED THAT IF YOU HIT THE START BUTTON IT COULD START WITH 

JUST THE GAS IN THE CYLINDERS and if there is a guy holding the prop ready 

to pull he may get caught off guard and swept up in the moment NOT ADVISED, 

but does aid in starting with weak mags.   

With respect, I disagree somewhat with the above advice.  Bill makes it sound like it would be much safer NOT to use the starter button than to use it. I believe that is a matter of perspective.  Having a prop violently jump backwards when you go to hand prop it can also catch a person off guard and cause injury.     
	


I'd advise all Yak owners to try this experiment. Turn off the circuit breaker for the starting system... in fact, if you want... leave the whole electrical master turned off.  Turn on your air.  Now... try to start that engine using your big toe to actuate the air starter valve manual lever (good practice for when it fails... which it always does sooner or later by the way) and the mag switch.  This little exercise will demonstrate that it is not always an easy thing to start an M-14 on the Mags alone, and it is has nothing to do with the Mags being "weak".  Instead you need to pop that Mag cap and check your rotor cap.  Does it have two electrical contacts on the rotor itself?  If it does, ... and it more than likely will.... you have the kind of mag that uses one contact for starting and another for normal running of the engine.  The contact for starting is initiated through the starting switch from the cockpit and gives the engine RETARDED SPARK TIMING.  This makes the engine much easier to start and prevents it from starting to fire with normal advanced timing and then immediately trying to turn over backwards.  You may notice this symptom when you try to start on just the Mags alone. Just remember.... starting normally uses retarded timing.  Starting on the mags alone uses advanced timing.     

Thus it is HIGHLY ADVISABLE to use the start button when hand propping an M-14 engine.     

Of course there is the caution that if you do this, you MUST make sure that there is no air left in the system that might rotate the prop prematurely, as Bill mentioned... during the hand propping exercise.  Do something like exercising the brakes, or the flaps or whatever... to make sure all the air is removed from the system ahead of time.  Then as the person is ready to prop the engine, engage the start button.  You also want to make sure that the person propping the airplane knows all about this kind of stuff.       

My 2 cents.    

Mark Bitterlich  

N50YK

BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:23 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Jim Bernier wrote: 

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  > Question. When hand propping, would it be advisable to use the shower of sparks? Explain why or not.   

Brian Lloyd replied:  
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Why? Because it won't start if you don't. When you turn the engine by  

hand it is moving far too slowly for the mags to actually generate  

enough voltage for a spark.    

I have personally started an M-14 on just the mags, no boost coil involved, by both hand and by air starting.  
	


It is not easy, I do not recommend it, but it can be done.  As an aside, I will mention that I am about 6 feet 7 inches tall and weigh in at over 300 pounds, and I can really sling that two bladed prop. But as I also said in another post, I highly recommend using the starter button and the booster coil, and thus too, the retarded timing connected to same.     

 	  Quote: 	
		  If you have carefully primed the engine (prime and pull through) and you  

have positioned one cylinder just past TDC, hitting the start button may  

actually start the engine without any air as the mixture in that one  

cylinder ignites and turns the engine over enough to get to the next  

cylinder's firing point.   

Highly unlikely on a cold engine. Maybe not impossible, but the odds are against it enough so that I'm reaching for my wallet!     
	


1. The air and fuel that was compressed during the prop "pull" will leak out completely by the time you get back into the aircraft and push the button. Put a differential compression gage on any cylinder and remove the air source.  Watch how quickly the cylinder gage goes to zero. An engine cylinder with ambient fuel/air mixture does not have enough energy to rotate the engine even if it did ignite. If the engine was HOT, with rings fully expanded.... the odds change.  Even then I'd say the odds are against it BIG TIME.    

2.  You mentioned that you would have to have one cylinder positioned perfectly just past Top Dead Center.  And how would a person go about determining this?  Answer:  Without taking something apart... it is not possible.  

I consider the "magic start" to be urban legend... sorry Brian, go ahead and rip my lips off!      

Mark Bitterlich 

N50YK   

P.S.  May I please mention that I sat there one day with my buddy in the cockpit and we pulled that darn prop through one compression stroke after another, and with zero air, hit that start button about 50 times and that engine never budged.  Not one little inch.

aerobaticgirl(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:26 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Well, since this *just* happened to me...ask the mx dudes for Nitrogen.  Filled up the tank and the booger started right up.



  Smash

  

Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50(at)msn.com> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" 



Say your out on a cross country with one leg home and you have stoped for gas. You get back to the airplane and for some reason your air supply is gone.

	


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brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:42 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have personally started an M-14 on just the mags, no boost coil 

 involved, by both hand and by air starting.

 It is not easy, I do not recommend it, but it can be done.  As an aside, 

 I will mention that I am about 6 feet 7 inches tall and weigh in at over 

 300 pounds, and I can really sling that two bladed prop. But as I also 

 said in another post, I highly recommend using the starter button and 

 the booster coil, and thus too, the retarded timing connected to same.  


	


Wow! You *are* a superman.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Highly unlikely on a cold engine. Maybe not impossible, but the odds are 

 against it enough so that I'm reaching for my wallet!  

 

 1. The air and fuel that was compressed during the prop "pull" will leak 

 out completely by the time you get back into the aircraft and push the 

 button. Put a differential compression gage on any cylinder and remove 

 the air source.  Watch how quickly the cylinder gage goes to zero. An 

 engine cylinder with ambient fuel/air mixture does not have enough 

 energy to rotate the engine even if it did ignite. If the engine was 

 HOT, with rings fully expanded.... the odds change.  Even then I'd say 

 the odds are against it BIG TIME. 

 

 2.  You mentioned that you would have to have one cylinder positioned 

 perfectly just past Top Dead Center.  And how would a person go about 

 determining this?  Answer:  Without taking something apart... it is not 

 possible.

 

 I consider the "magic start" to be urban legend... sorry Brian, go ahead 

 and rip my lips off!  


	


It worked for me, not once but twice. It surprised the hell out of me 

both times too. But that was a Huosai and not an M14P. And I agree that 

I wouldn't count on it.



You can feel a cylinder go past TDC on the compression stroke. In my 

case I just pulled it past that point.



This is not a life or death thing. And if I bet money on it it wouldn't 

work.



You need your lips more than I do. 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Mark Bitterlich

 N50YK

 

 P.S.  May I please mention that I sat there one day with my buddy in the 

 cockpit and we pulled that darn prop through one compression stroke 

 after another, and with zero air, hit that start button about 50 times 

 and that engine never budged.  Not one little inch. 


	


I believe you.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:43 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

This discussion has been had before too. The debate of will you be able to start with N2 only was concluded with you can and you have proven that. As others have said, just do not use O2 (100%). 21% will work just fine.

 Doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Smash,

 Was your air tank completely empty or did you have some air  left in it?  If there was air in it, how many ATM's.  There have  been numerous discussions on the List as to whether the M14P will start on  pure nitrogen vs. a mixture of Nitrogen and breathing air.   I really  don't want to open up that can of worms again.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

Mike Bell

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 51

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Air.....in an emergency.

I read somewhere (maybe Bud's old Yak newsletter) that you could start on 120 PSI shop air. While it won't turn the engine against compression, it makes the prop easy for the hand-propper to move. Sounds scary. If you carry a pony scuba tank you have some insurance against this scenario.

_________________
Mike Bell
Elk Grove, CA
avbell2(at)comcastdotnet

eyeballs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:09 pm Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

From Deer Valley where the sheer volume of CJs, Yak-52s,  Yak-50s etc etc make it likely that someone will not have enough air to start  from time to time.  We have Scuba bottles with the appropriate fittings  scattered around the airport, but Bill Blackwell is available to put some Okie  muscle into starting.  (but flabby, 65 year old me can easily prop a M-14  so you don't need muscle to do it)

  

 After the engine is primed and pulled through with all the  proper communication between propper and pilot, the brakes are set (if there is  enough residual air) or the airplane is chocked and/or tied down.

  

 With the MAGS OFF the puller moves the blade into position for  pulling.  He counts to three and pulls.  The pilot is readied by the  count and AFTER he sees the prop moving, he hits the start switch.  The  Start switch is not activated until AFTER the puller starts pulling.  The  puller cannot be surprised by a sudden movement of the prop.

  

 Do not forget that a M-14 can be started by ANY movement of  the prop with the shower of sparks on.  Just a nudge, a slight touch is  enough sometimes.  Even if you have spent 20 minutes trying to start it and  have run out of air.  The next minute movement of the prop might start the  engine.

  

 Be careful out there.

  

 EB

 [quote]   ---

BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:36 pm Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Thanks for being kind....    

Mark   

Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:   

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have personally started an M-14 on just the mags, no boost coil  

 involved, by both hand and by air starting. 

 It is not easy, I do not recommend it, but it can be done.  As an aside,  

 I will mention that I am about 6 feet 7 inches tall and weigh in at over  

 300 pounds, and I can really sling that two bladed prop. But as I also  

 said in another post, I highly recommend using the starter button and  

 the booster coil, and thus too, the retarded timing connected to same.     

Wow! You *are* a superman.  
	


  

 	  Quote: 	
		   Highly unlikely on a cold engine. Maybe not impossible, but the odds are  

 against it enough so that I'm reaching for my wallet!   

  

 1. The air and fuel that was compressed during the prop "pull" will leak  

 out completely by the time you get back into the aircraft and push the  

 button. Put a differential compression gage on any cylinder and remove  

 the air source.  Watch how quickly the cylinder gage goes to zero. An  

 engine cylinder with ambient fuel/air mixture does not have enough  

 energy to rotate the engine even if it did ignite. If the engine was  

 HOT, with rings fully expanded.... the odds change.  Even then I'd say  

 the odds are against it BIG TIME.  

  

 2.  You mentioned that you would have to have one cylinder positioned  

 perfectly just past Top Dead Center.  And how would a person go about  

 determining this?  Answer:  Without taking something apart... it is not  

 possible. 

  

 I consider the "magic start" to be urban legend... sorry Brian, go ahead  

 and rip my lips off!     

It worked for me, not once but twice. It surprised the hell out of me  
	


both times too. But that was a Huosai and not an M14P. And I agree that  

I wouldn't count on it.   

You can feel a cylinder go past TDC on the compression stroke. In my  

case I just pulled it past that point.   

This is not a life or death thing. And if I bet money on it it wouldn't  

work.   

You need your lips more than I do.  

 	  Quote: 	
		    

 Mark Bitterlich 

 N50YK 

  

 P.S.  May I please mention that I sat there one day with my buddy in the  

 cockpit and we pulled that darn prop through one compression stroke  

 after another, and with zero air, hit that start button about 50 times  

 and that engine never budged.  Not one little inch.    

I believe you.   
	


--  

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way 

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630 

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)   

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . 

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Sorry  to butt in Dennis, but I have watched this topic being discussed many times and  have always kept my mouth shut... but this time I am adding my 2 cents.    

  

 I have  personally filled my tank with pure 100% water pumped nitrogen before I left for  deployments where I would not be starting my aircraft for a long time.  I  have easy access to nitrogen.  

  

 After  returning, I started it with the same nitrogen that I filled the bottle with  before I left.  

  

 It  started, each and every time.    

  

 I  always believed that the cylinder that the nitrogen was being fed to was one  already on the way down from the compression stroke... as in, already well past  TDC.  The NEXT cylinder in the firing order thus was pulling it's air and  fuel in from the intake and had no bottle nitrogen in it at all.  Thus when  IT got ready to go over TDC and was fired by the plug, it was in fact  "uncontaminated".  .... if it failed to fire, then it too would have had  nitrogen squirted into it.  If it DID fire, ....well then the rest is  obvious.  

  

 Yes, I  realize there is valve overlap on the cam.  

  

 Fact  is... it has always started for me.  

  

 But..  having worked HOURS trying to get the air distributor set perfectly in an M-14,  it dawns on me that many different M-14's could easily have many different  settings on that air distributor.  One tooth worth of difference does not  stop the engine from rotating.  It MIGHT impact the cylinder combustible  mixture ratio enough to cause different results in different .. otherwise  identical... engines.  

  

 Is  this a reasonable line of thought do you think? 

  

 Mark  

 N50YK

  

  

  

  -----Original  Message-----

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of A. Dennis  Savarese

Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 3:46 PM

To:  yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Air.....in an  emergency.

 Smash,

 Was your air tank completely empty or did you have some air  left in it?  If there was air in it, how many ATM's.  There have  been numerous discussions on the List as to whether the M14P will start on  pure nitrogen vs. a mixture of Nitrogen and breathing air.   I really  don't want to open up that can of worms again.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

mlbjr(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:17 pm Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

---

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