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WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:09 am Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

1. For installation of the leading edge does the fabric need to be removed from the leading spar and then a fabric job done to seal it all up?



2. How does this mod affect slow speed flight and stalls?



3. What is the best material/method for fairing wing struts and landing gear?



4. how ridiculous is it that I care about cleaning up my airplane if it never has doors on it?  



  



James

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

kenjrichter

Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 18
Location: US

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:47 am Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

James, it sounds like you have the same kitfox/engine/prop I have only I have the grove spring gear on mine maybe you have also, my plan for the leading edge is to glue it in place over the covering and then use some 4" fabric tape eventually and paint to match but for now I plan to use the black leading edge tape to cover it up and maybe leave it  I had this on my firestar and it was nice for cleaning the bugs off they didn't stick to it like the fabric, I am also clipping the wings 18" per side in hopes of picking up some speed from both of the mods I do have the streamlined strut fairings I also hope to make it smoother in bumpy air, I know i will be sacrificing some climb and stall speed but my plane has more of this than I need anyway and then maybe my passengers will not get sick when I fly in the middle of the day,the model 3 is a great short field plane it gets off before I'm ready and climbs great but I should have a model 4 as I fly from an airport but since I already have this plane I hope to make it work better for my needs,I will post the results.



Ken Richter

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:51 pm Post subject: kitfox 3

1.) Yes, but maybe you could glue it to the fabric and then put a 6" fabric 

overlay on it, Yer on your own if you do.

2) No idea, probably not a major thing.

3) The originals back in the day were angle sawn hardwood glued on and 

fabric covered. The only ones sold by Kitfox today are plastic. You could 

put foam triangles on the back of the strut and cover or not (poly fiber 

dissolves foam). There are many ways to accomplish  this task, I'd go with 

the factory stuff.

4) Well, that's between you and your therapist. You might want doors 

someday. I like being able to drop the chart on the passenger seat and not 

buy a new one each flight.



---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:50 pm Post subject: kitfox 3

At 07:09 AM 11/22/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  4. how ridiculous is it that I care about cleaning up my airplane if 

it never has doors on it?


	


It's called tinkering and it's what you do after you've finished 

building and it's one of the reasons you fly an experimental. It 

begins with cap fairings and strut fairings and door handles and 

progresses to props and bush wheels and bubble doors, to bush gear 

and wood inlaid carbon fiber panels, to leather seats and glass 

panels, and finally to carbon fiber wings and the new 100hp turboprop 

every one's been talking about. When you've replaced everything you start over.



Or if you're like me you just fly so much you barely have time for maintenance.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:31 am Post subject: kitfox 3

Or move on to changing ignition systems, fuel metering devices,  

adding skis, or like I'm doing...modifying the exhaust system and  

building a different (updraft) intake manifold, just to try to tweak  

the system a little bit and get the temperatures a little closer to  

perfect.. It's all because we *can* that we *do*.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

do not archive



On Nov 23, 2009, at 12:42 AM, Guy Buchanan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 It's called tinkering and it's what you do after you've finished  

 building and it's one of the reasons you fly an experimental. It  

 begins with cap fairings and strut fairings and door handles and  

 progresses to props and bush wheels and bubble doors, to bush gear  

 and wood inlaid carbon fiber panels, to leather seats and glass  

 panels, and finally to carbon fiber wings and the new 100hp  

 turboprop every one's been talking about. When you've replaced  

 everything you start over.



 Or if you're like me you just fly so much you barely have time for  

 maintenance.

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

 	  Guy Buchanan wrote: 	
		  At 07:09 AM 11/22/2009, you wrote:



Or if you're like me you just fly so much you barely have time for maintenance.

	




That statement describes my biggest heartache.  I have a list of things to do but I am not willing to sacrifice a weekend flight to do any of them.



I have ordered a new Ivo medium prop (thanks for the hookup with your buddy Dave) and I am about to order the Nanco tires.  I gap sealed the elevator, what a huge improvement that was.  Replaced the windshield, replaced/upgraded the brakes, upgraded the intercom with one with stereo Ipod interface, rewired the charging system so it actually worked, removed slop from the aileron system, installed push-to-intercom switches, and relocated my radiator.  And I have only had the plane since February.  One of these days i will replace the wing tanks and re plumb the fuel system, but I am afraid of fabric and painting still.  This toy is a constant project but damn is it fun.

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:25 am Post subject: kitfox 3

James, Don't be afraid of fabric and painting. I attended a 2 hr workshop on fabric and a 2 hr workshop on paint at Oshkosh, now I'm an expert. Ha! Really I had some paint experience with cars previously but no fabric. That 2 hr fabric workshop along with the Poly Fibre manual and your ready to fly.  (Pun intended.) The painting is a little tougher and requires that you acquire and learn how to use the painting equipment. Painting is the hardest part of building a plane or car. It is also very satisfying to be able to paint. You just spend enough $ for a large enough compressor,  throw paint, learn how to look into the light, and create the requisite # of runs till you get to the point you only occasionally cause a run yet still get a glossy coat. Try it, you'll like it. 

   

 Pat Reilly

 Mod3 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL 

 On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:05 PM, WurlyBird <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil (james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil (james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil)>

 



Guy Buchanan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   At 07:09 AM 11/22/2009, you wrote:



 Or if you're like me you just fly so much you barely have time for maintenance.




	




That statement describes my biggest heartache.  I have a list of things to do but I am not willing to sacrifice a weekend flight to do any of them.

 

I have ordered a new Ivo medium prop (thanks for the hookup with your buddy Dave) and I am about to order the Nanco tires.  I gap sealed the elevator, what a huge improvement that was.  Replaced the windshield, replaced/upgraded the brakes, upgraded the intercom with one with stereo Ipod interface, rewired the charging system so it actually worked, removed slop from the aileron system, installed push-to-intercom switches, and relocated my radiator.  And I have only had the plane since February.  One of these days i will replace the wing tanks and re plumb the fuel system, but I am afraid of fabric and painting still.  This toy is a constant project but damn is it fun.

 

--------

James

Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop

The ink is still drying on my new certificate





Read this topic online here:



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 omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com

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[b]

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:26 am Post subject: kitfox 3

When I started my refurb, paint and fabric were the  top of a long list of things I was concerned might be too complicated. It turned  out to be one of the easiest and most satisfying. I can't tolerate the solvent  in polyfiber, in fact being in a hangar where someone else did it a couple of  days ago is hard for me. So I used Stewarts Systems waterborne products. All in  all it's far easier than you would expect, whichever system you use.  

 [quote]   ---

kenjrichter

Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 18
Location: US

Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

I started the mods to my model 3 today I had planned on adding the pvc to the leading edge first but I haven't received it yet so I shortened the wings first it was pretty easy I just cut them back to the next rib and then reattached the horner wing tips, so I now have a 29' wing span model 3 if the weather is good tomorrow I plan on flying it.



Ken Richter

kenjrichter

Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 18
Location: US

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

I'm not sure how many list members have model 3's and are interested in this info but I flew my model 3 with the shortened wings today for the first time and heres what I noticed   it was a little windy today so I may need to wait for another day with no wind to see the speed difference but as far as I can tell its not much faster maybe a few mph but I did notice some pleasant improvements roll response is faster which I like and it seems like turns need less rudder input now and also climb seems about the same 1400fpm but it seems like the speed during the climb is faster  overall it seems like the handling is better or atleast I like it better,  next is the pvc leading edge I hope to get this done this week.



Ken Richter

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:17 pm Post subject: kitfox 3

Ken, I have a model 3 that I just rebuilt and haven't flown yet. I should have the airworthiness cert. Friday. Where are you located? Most of us use a signature that states model,engine, location, etc.

 do not archive

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

 On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 5:27 PM, kenjrichter <kenrichter(at)centurytel.net (kenrichter(at)centurytel.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kenjrichter" <kenrichter(at)centurytel.net (kenrichter(at)centurytel.net)>

 

I'm not sure how many list members have model 3's and are interested in this info but I flew my model 3 with the shortened wings today for the first time and heres what I noticed   it was a little windy today so I may need to wait for another day with no wind to see the speed difference but as far as I can tell its not much faster maybe a few mph but I did notice some pleasant improvements roll response is faster which I like and it seems like turns need less rudder input now and also climb seems about the same 1400fpm but it seems like the speed during the climb is faster  overall it seems like the handling is better or atleast I like it better,  next is the pvc leading edge I hope to get this done this week.

 

Ken Richter





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275653#275653



 er is the Annual List Fund Raiser.  Click on

 -=     * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com

 omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com

  http:/r generous support!

 ronics List Features Navigator to browse

 s.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ==============



[b]

kenjrichter

Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 18
Location: US

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

Pat, I am in Osceola Wisconsin  I will start adding that info in my posts



Ken Richter

mod 3/582

Gsc prop/grove gear



Osceola,Wi

Lyle Persels

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 34
Location: Osceola, IA

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:37 pm Post subject: kitfox 3

Ken,

I have a model IV with a 912ULS, but I flew off the original 40 hours  

on a friend's Model IV Speedster. I found the roll response  

considerably better with the shorter wings, and it didn't float as  

much on landing flare. I liked it just fine.



I'm in Osceola, too--Osceola, Iowa.



Lyle Persels

Osceola, IA

KF-IV 1200 912ULS

450 Hrs



On 12 1, 09, at 5:27 PM, kenjrichter wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >



 I'm not sure how many list members have model 3's and are interested  

 in this info but I flew my model 3 with the shortened wings today  

 for the first time and heres what I noticed   it was a little windy  

 today so I may need to wait for another day with no wind to see the  

 speed difference but as far as I can tell its not much faster maybe  

 a few mph but I did notice some pleasant improvements roll response  

 is faster which I like and it seems like turns need less rudder  

 input now and also climb seems about the same 1400fpm but it seems  

 like the speed during the climb is faster  overall it seems like the  

 handling is better or atleast I like it better,  next is the pvc  

 leading edge I hope to get this done this week.



 Ken Richter





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 75653#275653

kenjrichter

Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 18
Location: US

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

Lyle, I forgot to mention that the landings were better I used to run out of elevator authority before the plane was done flying making it hard to land but now thats better as well.



Ken Richter

model 3 speedster

582/GSC prop/Grove gear

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:15 am Post subject: kitfox 3

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: kenjrichter [kenrichter(at)centurytel.net]

 as far as I can tell its not much faster maybe a few mph but I did notice some 

 pleasant improvements roll response is faster which I like and it seems like turns

 need less rudder input now and also climb seems about the same 1400fpm but it

 seems like the speed during the climb is faster  overall it seems like the handling

 is better or atleast I like it better,


	


Thank you for this report, Ken. Speed, climb, roll and less adverse yaw, is indeed what we would expect, woudn't we? My model 3 is very "classic" with the orignal wings but with a new Jabiru engine. Compared to what are now the new European ultralight class aircraft (limited to 450 kg MTOW) my Kitfox is one of the slowest birds but then, for me it is not about the destination but the journey. I don't mind staying longer in the air! 



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

kenjrichter

Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 18
Location: US

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:10 am Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

Michel, I too rarely ever really need speed because all I ever do is fly for fun so why be in a hurry right, but sometimes a group of guys from our airport decides to go on a little journey for lunch and my plane has been a tad slow so that makes it hard to keep up and even now if I only gained a few mph it probably wont make much difference but the other improvements are great so I am glad I clipped the wings  also makes it easier to get in the hangar  I hope I can still get some extra speed from the leading edge pvc I will report on that too.

_________________
Ken Richter
Osceola,Wi
model 3 speedster
582/GSC prop/Grove gear

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:19 am Post subject: kitfox 3

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: kenjrichter [kenrichter(at)centurytel.net]

 I hope I can still get some extra speed from the leading edge pvc I will report on

 that too.


	


Speed is always good, Ken. Less drag and faster climb rate when you meet the trees at the end of the runway, is always welcomed. I intend to fly to the North Cape (northern point of Norway) with a gang of Belgian/French ultralight pilots next summer and I already know that I'll have to take off first or ... land last. I understand you very well.



One thing that prevented me, so far, to do anything with the wings is that I like the drooping winglets because I have, perhaps only the illusion, that it will protect my flaperons should I end in a ground loop where the wing tip meets the ground.



When I started flying my Kitfox, and fearing a ground loop, I even considered putting small wheels at the end of the winglets but ... I was afraid other pilots would laugh at me! 



I look forward to reading your report on the PVC leading edges.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:56 am Post subject: kitfox 3

To philosophize here a bit.  I agree that speed is good, when you want to 

get somewhere fast.  I wonder sometimes, however, when we enjoy flying as 

much as we do, why do we seem to want to get back on the ground so soon.



When flying with our group - sometimes from four airplanes to occasionally 

as many as ten - we always flew at the speed of the slowest airplane.  It 

was never a problem as the joy of the flight was seeing each other out the 

windows and sharing the combined view - the navy research submarines on the 

lake, the antelope near the pond or the junk collecters in the desert and of 

course the goofy chat as we digested all that we could see.  We occasionally 

flew with folks that always flew at one speed and they would then sit on the 

ground waiting for the rest of us to arrive.  I always wondered about that. 

For us at least, the joy was in the flight, not merely sharing a table at a 

destination.



Then there was the time that the RV4 followed us to a fly-in he couldn't 

locate.  He flew circles above us as we followed the course of a winding 

river at 100 ft.  It obviously doesn't always work.



Lowell



---

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:40 am Post subject: kitfox 3

That makes 3 of us. Osceola County, Michigan here.

  

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch

  

 do not archive

 



--- On Tue, 12/1/09, Lyle Persels <lpers(at)mchsi.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Lyle Persels <lpers(at)mchsi.com>

Subject: Re: Re: kitfox 3

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 8:35 PM



 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lyle Persels <lpers(at)mchsi.com (lpers(at)mchsi.com)>



Ken,

I have a model IV with a 912ULS, but I flew off the original 40 hours on a friend's Model IV Speedster. I found the roll response considerably better with the shorter wings, and it didn't float as much on landing flare. I liked it just fine.



I'm in Osceola, too--Osceola, Iowa.



Lyle Persels

Osceola, IA

KF-IV 1200 912ULS

450 Hrs



On 12 1, 09, at 5:27 PM, kenjrichter wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kenjrichter" <kenrichter(at)centurytel.net (kenrichter(at)centurytel.net)>

 

 I'm not sure how many list members have model 3's and are interested in this info but I flew my  model 3 with the shortened wings today for the first time and heres what I noticed   it was a little windy today so I may need to wait for another day with no wind to see the speed difference but as far as I can tell its not much faster maybe a few mph but I did notice some pleasant improvements roll response is faster which I like and it seems like turns need less rudder input now and also climb seems about the same 1400fpm but it seems like the speed during the climb is faster  overall it seems like the handling is better or atleast I like it better,  next is the pvc leading edge I hope to get this done this week.

 

 Ken Richter

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275653#275653

 

 

 

 

 

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         [quote][b]

pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:57 am Post subject: kitfox 3

Lowel,



You brought up another thought.  I once flew my Kitfox III on a several hour 

cross country with a friend who was flying his 172.  He was amazed at how 

good his gph was throttled back to stay with me.



Pete

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