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Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:50 am Post subject: Re: IFR

I don't mean to offend anyone, but:



IMHO you should not be flying IFR unless you are personally current. I don't mean legally; I mean that at that moment, you could pass a check ride to PTS standards, including hand-flown approaches to minimums. So I don't like the idea of personal minimums; either you can fly to published minimums, or you can't (in which case you shouldn't be up there at all). Obviously you need to consider the weather, especially turbulence, in deciding whether to do the approach at all. Just as the PTS allows some leeway for worse than average conditions. BTW, the hardest part is the last 200 vertical feet, if the visibility is only 1/2 mile - especially if it's dark. And you need to hand fly that anyway, at least at some point.



I'm a part time CFII, and give a fair number of IPC's. My observation: pilots who come to me are rusty; but those pilots who regularly fly behind an autopilot are really rusty. I plan to put an autopilot in my -10, it's a great fatigue reliever. But I'm not sure I will couple it for approaches. Here in California I just don't get that much actual, I need to hand fly every one to keep current (plus some hood practice, for unusual attitudes, steep turns, etc.).



For 2 pilots (or even a passenger you trust): You are the PIC, and you should clearly tell the copilot what you expect. I find the following works well for an ILS: I ask the copilot to call out altitudes above DA(H) (1000 feet to go; 500' to go; 200' to go; DA) (I watch too!). I also ask the copilot to call out "runway in sight" or "approach lights in sight". PIC flies the gauges, and does not look up until he hears the copilot has the runway or lights. If you reach DA(H) without hearing that, you start the miss, never leaving the instruments.



PS What kind of a cfii would not notice the aircraft turning 180 degrees?

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

jump2(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:58 am Post subject: IFR

Here's my take. Single engine 500ft,  mult-engine minimums. It's only because I want a couple more  seconds to see, if I have an engine failure enroute. 1000' would even be better. I don't have to be anywhere. It's up to you to do your own risk management.

 Just remember it doesn't happen to you, until it does.

Patrick Thyssen



 

 



--- On Wed, 1/2/09, David McNeill <dlm46007(at)cox.net> wrote:

[quote]

From: David McNeill <dlm46007(at)cox.net>

Subject: RE: RV10-List: IFR

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 9:54 AM



--> RV10-List message posted by: "David  McNeill" <[url=/mc/compose?to=dlm46007(at)cox.net]dlm46007(at)cox.net[/url]>



When I started flying IFR in IMC (1979) alternate minimums must be forecast

for the destiniation and of course the alternate. I was hand flying a

C177RG; autopilot was INOP (never worked from new). I now use published

minimums but I don't accept ice enroute (perhaps a little on IMC climb out

or on IMC approach to assured landing). Also I an more inclined to go to

minimums by myself than with any non pilot passengers. Of course now its

easy with the Cheltons, GPS and VSGV. Back then it was dual VORs, single GS

and Strikefinder and hand flying. 

--

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:42 pm Post subject: IFR

I don't think anyone is suggesting that a pilot shouldn't be able to

hand fly the airplane to minimums; but just suggesting that the use of

the autopilot tremendously reduces risk.  The AP doesn't get distracted,

doesn't have to flip charts, and doesn't have to press buttons in

turbulence.  It's a valuable tool to greatly reduce the workload and

significantly reduce risk.



The higher personal minimums are simply a way to manage the environment

in which we choose to take risks.  The good thing about flying is that

we have the opportunity to choose the weather - just not the time.  We

get to choose the operating environment that lets us handle any issues

(missed forecasts, INOP AP's, INOP EFIS, power failures, .....) or

combination of issues when (at)$(at)! hits the fan.



I completely agree that you should be prepared to hand fly an approach

to minimums.  But because a pilot can fly it by hand doesn't mean it's

smart.  We owe it to our families, friends, and fellow pilots to use all

the tools we can to reduce the risks.

Phil



  

--

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:53 pm Post subject: IFR

Let me rephrase that for a second...



We get to choose the weather forecast - just not the time.

Phil   <-- Brain operating at a different speed than fingers.



--

lbgjb10

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 67

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: IFR

Jesse--I remember when I got my rating in the early 60's--my dad, old WWII (the last good, winning one, unless you count Granada) pilot, said, put the ticket on the glare shield and hope God see's it, as I was boarding my Tripacer with a whistle stop tuning radio!!!!  Try an approach to mins. (VFR with instructor) and have him fail your instruments except your basic backup, add a little turbulence and it can really change your minimums.  500/1 mile gives you some margin of error.  Your problem will be staying really current with winter and icing, and with summer boomers in FL not very conducive to 'fun' IFR.  Best and most fun IFR I had was living on the west coast with marine layer, smooth clouds with decent ceilings--made you feel like a real hot shot.  Just be careful our there.  Larry

_________________
Larry and Gayle N104LG

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: IFR

"I completely agree that you should be prepared to hand fly an approach 

to minimums. But because a pilot can fly it by hand doesn't mean it's 

smart. We owe it to our families, friends, and fellow pilots to use all 

the tools we can to reduce the risks."



I agree with this statement. It's certainly what the airlines do. But in the real world, most GA pilots just don't get enough practice hand flying, nor do they do the recurrent training the airlines do, so in fact they're not prepared to hand fly. (I once had a pilot doing an IPC tell me that if the autopilot quit, he would declare an emergency (in a 182!). Surely he was not up to standards, but was betting his life on the autopilot). 



So the question becomes, what is the greater risk: That I'll screw up a hand flown approach so badly that it results in an accident? Or that I'll become so rusty that an autopilot failure will lead to an accident? (Or that I'll be so out of the loop that an accident results, even if the autopilot works.)



The last fatal ifr accident at my home airport (KLVK) was an autopilot/out of the loop-induced one: pilot put the autopilot in descent mode and then just forgot about it. Rusty pilots trusting autopilots often find themselves out of the loop. So I do think it's important to stay really current, not just trust the machines.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:58 pm Post subject: IFR

I hope I'm not the only one that is not meaning this.  On an approach, I would not go missed 500 feet above the DH.  I am referring to the ATIS info at that or the nearest airport (or forecast on making the go or no-go decision).

 Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694

On Dec 2, 2009, at 12:30 PM, William Curtis wrote:

[quote]My personal minimum is the same as the published minimum.  Then I immediately go to my alternate.  If an approach looks close, I will give greater consideration to my alternate on planning.  I never understood personal minimums when applied to approaches.  Fly the approach FULLY as published.  Then if you don't see the runway, go missed and fly to your alternate. 

 My plan is if the weather looks close at my destination airport and that airport does not have an ILS, I look for an alternate with an ILS.  Then I make one approach at my destination flying the approach FULLY.  If it does not work out, I fly to my alternate.

 On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)>

This brings up another question.  What are people using for "personal minimums"?  Some I've talked to say they'll go if they have circling minimums.  Others say 1,000 feet.  Some say that with family they will only go if their destination is VFR.  I felt comfortable shooting the approach when the METAR was MVFR.  I would certainly feel comfortable lower with another pilot than I would solo.  This pole, at least for my info, would be single pilot IFR with an autopilot (just for conversation, say it's an autopilot with GPS Nav or Steering and Altitude Hold, but no coupling, so the equivalent of the Digiflight II non-V).

Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694

On Dec 1, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>

 Big congrats to you...that's a huge accomplishment and now you've

 earned the lower insurance besides.   You're right, it's a

 > plane that is just perfect for IFR X/C flights.  Glad

 	  Quote: 	
		   you're having a good time!

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

 do not archive

 >

 	  Quote: 	

 Jesse Saint wrote:

> Well, I flew my first official IFR solo flight today in the RV-10 (after passing my IFR checkride a couple of weeks ago).  For those who need the extra encouragement in building, this is an incredibly stable platform for IFR flight, especially with a good autopilot driven by a good IFR GPS.

 >> do not archive

 >> Jesse Saint

 	  Quote: 	
		  > Saint Aviation, Inc.

 	  Quote: 	
		  > jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com) <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)>

  >> Cell: 352-427-0285

 	  Quote: 	
		  > Fax: 815-377-3694

 >> *

 	  Quote: 	

-- 

William

N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

[b]

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:02 pm Post subject: IFR

There are fights worth fighting, but I wouldn't consider ANY war a "good war" won or lost.

  

 Please explain how 500/1 "give you some margin of error" when you are in the clouds?  Going missed at some arbitrary minimum requires more maneuvering (and thus more risk) than just aligning the needles and continuing to PUBLISHED minimums.

 



 On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 4:05 PM, lbgjb10 <lbgjb(at)gnt.net (lbgjb(at)gnt.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "lbgjb10" <lbgjb(at)gnt.net (lbgjb(at)gnt.net)>

 

Jesse--I remember when I got my rating in the early 60's--my dad, old WWII (the last good, winning one, unless you count Granada) pilot, said, put the ticket on the glare shield and hope God see's it, as I was boarding my Tripacer with a whistle stop tuning radio!!!!  Try an approach to mins. (VFR with instructor) and have him fail your instruments except your basic backup, add a little turbulence and it can really change your minimums.  500/1 mile gives you some margin of error.  Your problem will be staying really current with winter and icing, and with summer boomers in FL not very conducive to 'fun' IFR.  Best and most fun IFR I had was living on the west coast with marine layer, smooth clouds with decent ceilings--made you feel like a real hot shot.  Just be careful our there.  Larry

 

--------

Larry and Gayle N104LG



-- 

William

N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

[b]

gengrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:17 pm Post subject: IFR

At the risk of increasing the firestorm here......



Personal minimums are what I require forecast (or actual) BEFORE I will commit to plan a flight or start an approach.

These personal minimums will vary depending on lots of things guys have mentioned in previous emails.

However, once I begin the approach, I fly it to the published minimums and either land or go missed.

Loads of past experience in very fast, single seat airplanes taught us to keep it very simple once the approach is started because your total focus must be on flying the approach once you start it.

Trying to determine an artificial missed approach point other than the published one you are flying will get you killed.......

grumpy

do not archive  



On Dec 2, 2009, at 3:59 PM, William Curtis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  There are fights worth fighting, but I wouldn't consider ANY war a "good war" won or lost.

  

 Please explain how 500/1 "give you some margin of error" when you are in the clouds?  Going missed at some arbitrary minimum requires more maneuvering (and thus more risk) than just aligning the needles and continuing to PUBLISHED minimums.

 



 On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 4:05 PM, lbgjb10 <lbgjb(at)gnt.net (lbgjb(at)gnt.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "lbgjb10" <lbgjb(at)gnt.net (lbgjb(at)gnt.net)>

 

Jesse--I remember when I got my rating in the early 60's--my dad, old WWII (the last good, winning one, unless you count Granada) pilot, said, put the ticket on the glare shield and hope God see's it, as I was boarding my Tripacer with a whistle stop tuning radio!!!!  Try an approach to mins. (VFR with instructor) and have him fail your instruments except your basic backup, add a little turbulence and it can really change your minimums.  500/1 mile gives you some margin of error.  Your problem will be staying really current with winter and icing, and with summer boomers in FL not very conducive to 'fun' IFR.  Best and most fun IFR I had was living on the west coast with marine layer, smooth clouds with decent ceilings--made you feel like a real hot shot.  Just be careful our there.  Larry

 

--------

Larry and Gayle N104LG



-- 

William

N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/





====================================

lectric.com

m">www.buildersbooks.com

ebuilthelp.com

w.matronics.com/contribution

====================================

tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

====================================

nics.com

====================================



	
	


=  [quote][b]

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:37 pm Post subject: IFR

Agreed. The AP is a great enroute tool to relax and study the alternatives

and approach material. Although my AP can fly the approaches to the MDA/DH,

I plan on using it for enroute only and to teach my family member non pilots

how to use it to get down if I were incapacitated. My first two approaches

in the 10 were to minimums and that unexpectedly. 



Arriving at RNO during last summer, I expected the usual "cleared for the

visual" when the ATIS informed me that visibility was hovering about 1 1/4

mile in smoke. (the approach has been changed to have substantially higher

minimums.)The CA fires turned the visual into a minimum visibility ILS 16R.

This was a "vectors to final" with a B737 cleared for takeoff while I was

still 2-3 miles out and a B737 behind me being vectored back and forth

across the localizer because of the speed difference.  When I called runway

in sight at about 1 mile, the B737 behind me was cleared to land. I made the

first high speed turnoff.



The second approach was at MYJ ; I was in the right seat allowing my VFR

fellow builder fly the aircraft on my II. It was severe clear until about 30

miles out of MYJ. We entered rain and cloud. MKC center gave MYJ as 400 OVC

and 1M in moderate rain. I was cleared for the RNAV 6 and began the approach

( a little fast) I told my left seater that I was going o call minimums and

that he was to look for the airport and take over and land the aircraft if

able. I called minimums and he said "your airplane"; I proceed to slip the

aircraft to the threshold and began flying level to reduce speed. His

immediate response was "Don't skid" (standing water on the runway). I

responded by answering "anti skid armed" we touched down about halfway down

the 5500 runway and the brakes were not required as the wind milling prop

slowed us nicely.



Neither approaches were flown with the AP.  The approaches were to minimums.

Minimums were not expected. If you need an AP to fly an approach you

probably should not be in IMC. We fly with multiple backups for PFD, MFD,

EIS, and batteries but only one AP. Therefore the AP should be the backup

for the pilot acting as PIC.  



--

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject: IFR

Agreed: Many of us have reminders that we can set in the PFD  so that The word "MINIMUMS" is displayed visually and audibly though the  EFIS.

   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Miller  John

Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 3:14 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re:  IFR

At the risk of increasing the firestorm here...... 

 Personal minimums are what I require forecast (or actual) BEFORE I will  commit to plan a flight or start an approach.

 These personal minimums will vary depending on lots of things guys have  mentioned in previous emails.

 However, once I begin the approach, I fly it to the published minimums and  either land or go missed.

 Loads of past experience in very fast, single seat airplanes taught us to  keep it very simple once the approach is started because your total focus must  be on flying the approach once you start it.

 Trying to determine an artificial missed approach point other than the  published one you are flying will get you killed.......

 grumpy

 do not archive  

  On Dec 2, 2009, at 3:59 PM, William Curtis wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		     There are fights worth fighting, but I wouldn't consider ANY war a "good    war" won or lost.

   Please explain how 500/1 "give you some margin of error" when you are in    the clouds?  Going missed at some arbitrary minimum requires more    maneuvering (and thus more risk) than just aligning the needles and continuing    to PUBLISHED minimums.

   On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 4:05 PM, lbgjb10 <lbgjb(at)gnt.net (lbgjb(at)gnt.net)>    wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "lbgjb10" <lbgjb(at)gnt.net (lbgjb(at)gnt.net)>

Jesse--I remember      when I got my rating in the early 60's--my dad, old WWII (the last good,      winning one, unless you count Granada) pilot, said, put the ticket on the      glare shield and hope God see's it, as I was boarding my Tripacer with a      whistle stop tuning radio!!!!  Try an approach to mins. (VFR with      instructor) and have him fail your instruments except your basic backup, add      a little turbulence and it can really change your minimums.  500/1 mile      gives you some margin of error.  Your problem will be staying really      current with winter and icing, and with summer boomers in FL not very      conducive to 'fun' IFR.  Best and most fun IFR I had was living on the      west coast with marine layer, smooth clouds with decent ceilings--made you      feel like a real hot shot.  Just be careful our there.       Larry

--------

Larry and Gayle N104LG

-- 

William

N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

lectric.com

m">www.buildersbooks.com

ebuilthelp.com

w.matronics.com/contribution

tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

nics.com

=  [quote]

href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com

href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com

href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

[b]

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:04 pm Post subject: IFR

In an e-mail that should be on the list by the time you read this, I said a short version of this very thing.  I'm glad I'm not the only one that was meaning that.



Overall, this has been a great discussion and very helpful to us (read me) newbies to IFR flight.

My thoughts on the Autopilot issue is what has been mentioned here before, as well as many other places.  An Autopilot makes single pilot IFR safe.  With 2-pilot IFR, while it is important to clearly understand who has control and what the copilot's responsibilities are, the nice thing about a copilot is that he doesn't have to spend his time controlling the airplane and can do things like look for the runway, watch and call out altitudes, remind pilot of the needles (you're a little low, come to the left a little) and verify frequencies and remind the pilot of missed approach procedures, etc.  When the autopilot is handling the controls, then the single pilot can be watching the needles, making sure they are telling the correct information (right frequencies), keep up on missed approach procedures, watch the "magenta line", look for runway lights, etc.  It is very important to be on your game as far as hand-flying, but that should either be practiced in VMC or with another "safety" pilot, IMHO.  When you're single pilot in IMC on an approach and have an autopilot, I think it's a mistake not to use it.  I know most autopilots I have flown can micro-control a lot better than I can and definitely keep the needles closer to the center.  Also, as long as they are working correctly, they don't have an inner ear to mess them up.

I had a couple of incidental/accidental IFR experiences before I got my ticket and they showed me how I would react if something unexpected happened.  The most obvious one was going from VMC to 0/0 in a very short time (with pounding rain).  I learned a lot from that, but mainly learned that, while my heart did start beating a little faster, I just calmly went to my instruments and gently put the number that had been on the bottom to the top and came out of it.  I was with ATC and when they asked me if everything was OK, I just asked them if they had a window through the weather that was actually as big as I had thought the one I was going through was.

On my return from the solo IFR flight the other day, I had a CFII friend with me and my son in the back seat.  We had just finished a great meal at Lambert's in Foley, AL.  We were leveling off at 11,000 in IMC.  It was about 38 degrees, and we had clear air about 1,000 feet below me, but I wanted to experience a little bit of true IMC enroute.  As we leveled off I heard a loud POP.  After asking my son to look for a quart-worth of oil splattered all over the baggage compartment he said, "My balloon!!!"  My friend said that when he first heard the POP he looked right at me.  He said I didn't react at all, but started looking at engine gauges and checking to make sure everything was alright.  If the gauges tell me things are fine, and especially if they agree with eachother, then it must be something else.  The balloon realization put my mind at ease, of course.  All of this just taught me that in a situation like that, I would do the right thing.

Sorry for being so long-winded.  I'll shut up for another month or so now...maybe.

do not archive



 Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694

 

 

On Dec 2, 2009, at 5:13 PM, Miller John wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  At the risk of increasing the firestorm here......



Personal minimums are what I require forecast (or actual) BEFORE I will commit to plan a flight or start an approach.

These personal minimums will vary depending on lots of things guys have mentioned in previous emails.

However, once I begin the approach, I fly it to the published minimums and either land or go missed.

Loads of past experience in very fast, single seat airplanes taught us to keep it very simple once the approach is started because your total focus must be on flying the approach once you start it.

Trying to determine an artificial missed approach point other than the published one you are flying will get you killed.......

grumpy

do not archive  



On Dec 2, 2009, at 3:59 PM, William Curtis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  There are fights worth fighting, but I wouldn't consider ANY war a "good war" won or lost.

  

 Please explain how 500/1 "give you some margin of error" when you are in the clouds?  Going missed at some arbitrary minimum requires more maneuvering (and thus more risk) than just aligning the needles and continuing to PUBLISHED minimums.

 



 On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 4:05 PM, lbgjb10 <lbgjb(at)gnt.net (lbgjb(at)gnt.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "lbgjb10" <lbgjb(at)gnt.net (lbgjb(at)gnt.net)>

 

Jesse--I remember when I got my rating in the early 60's--my dad, old WWII (the last good, winning one, unless you count Granada) pilot, said, put the ticket on the glare shield and hope God see's it, as I was boarding my Tripacer with a whistle stop tuning radio!!!!  Try an approach to mins. (VFR with instructor) and have him fail your instruments except your basic backup, add a little turbulence and it can really change your minimums.  500/1 mile gives you some margin of error.  Your problem will be staying really current with winter and icing, and with summer boomers in FL not very conducive to 'fun' IFR.  Best and most fun IFR I had was living on the west coast with marine layer, smooth clouds with decent ceilings--made you feel like a real hot shot.  Just be careful our there.  Larry

 

--------

Larry and Gayle N104LG



-- 

William

N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/





lectric.com

m">www.buildersbooks.com

ebuilthelp.com

w.matronics.com/contribution

tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

nics.com



	
	


=   	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com

href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com

href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com



	


	


 [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:18 pm Post subject: IFR

Very true, these "personal minimums" aren't something you do on the

fly, but that you use to decide if you're going to go ahead and

try the approach in the first place.



Also, people talk about "being current" and how important that is.

I'll tell you what...with advanced avionics, the hardest part

for some people will be in first understanding exactly...to the

details...how their system works.  And after they've learned it,

having it ingrained into memory enough that they can actually

push all the right buttons to do the approach.



I fly approaches and enroute both using the Autopilot or hand

flying. When I fly approaches that are coupled, I still have

my hand on the stick.  And, when I fly them completely hand

flown, it really isn't much different, with HITS, than if the

approach is AP coupled.  For me, I'd rather make 100% sure that

I know how to properly execute the approach with the proper

buttons, because that's where I think people will screw up the

worst.  These integrated systems are great...they do just what

you tell them to...and that's the problem.  It isn't hard to

push the wrong button and suddenly have the whole approach

disappear, change, or something else go wrong.



I like hand flying and it's important you can do it well in IMC, but

at the same time, I think it's just as important to know your

electronics inside and out.  That's where I think most people

would end up getting rusty unless you stay real current.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

Miller John wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   At the risk of increasing the firestorm here......

 

 Personal minimums are what I require forecast (or actual) BEFORE I will 

 commit to plan a flight or start an approach.

 

 These personal minimums will vary depending on lots of things guys have 

 mentioned in previous emails.

 

 However, once I begin the approach, I fly it to the published minimums 

 and either land or go missed.

 

 Loads of past experience in very fast, single seat airplanes taught us 

 to keep it very simple once the approach is started because your total 

 focus must be on flying the approach once you start it.

 

 Trying to determine an artificial missed approach point other than the 

 published one you are flying will get you killed.......

 

 grumpy

 

 do not archive  

 

 

 On Dec 2, 2009, at 3:59 PM, William Curtis wrote:

 

> There are fights worth fighting, but I wouldn't consider ANY war a 

> "good war" won or lost.

>  

> Please explain how 500/1 "give you some margin of error" when you are 

> in the clouds?  Going missed at some arbitrary minimum requires more 

> maneuvering (and thus more risk) than just aligning the needles and 

> continuing to PUBLISHED minimums.

>

> On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 4:05 PM, lbgjb10 <lbgjb(at)gnt.net 

> <mailto:lbgjb(at)gnt.net>> wrote:

>

>     

>     <mailto:lbgjb(at)gnt.net>>

>

>     Jesse--I remember when I got my rating in the early 60's--my dad,

>     old WWII (the last good, winning one, unless you count Granada)

>     pilot, said, put the ticket on the glare shield and hope God see's

>     it, as I was boarding my Tripacer with a whistle stop tuning

>     radio!!!!  Try an approach to mins. (VFR with instructor) and have

>     him fail your instruments except your basic backup, add a little

>     turbulence and it can really change your minimums.  500/1 mile

>     gives you some margin of error.  Your problem will be staying

>     really current with winter and icing, and with summer boomers in

>     FL not very conducive to 'fun' IFR.  Best and most fun IFR I had

>     was living on the west coast with marine layer, smooth clouds with

>     decent ceilings--made you feel like a real hot shot.  Just be

>     careful our there.  Larry

>

>     --------

>     Larry and Gayle N104LG

>     -- 

>     William

>     N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

>

> *

>

> ====================================

> lectric.com

> m">www.buildersbooks.com

> ebuilthelp.com

> w.matronics.com/contribution

> ====================================

> tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

> ====================================

> nics.com

> ====================================

>

> *

 

 =

 

 *

 

 

 *

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:24 pm Post subject: IFR

Balloons for you....potato chip bags for me....been there, done

that.  Man, that can give you a fast heart rate while you

check the instruments and airframe over. 



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

Jesse Saint wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   In an e-mail that should be on the list by the time you read this, I 

 said a short version of this very thing.  I'm glad I'm not the only one 

 that was meaning that.

 

 Overall, this has been a great discussion and very helpful to us (read 

 me) newbies to IFR flight.

 

 My thoughts on the Autopilot issue is what has been mentioned here 

 before, as well as many other places.  An Autopilot makes single pilot 

 IFR safe.  With 2-pilot IFR, while it is important to clearly understand 

 who has control and what the copilot's responsibilities are, the nice 

 thing about a copilot is that he doesn't have to spend his time 

 controlling the airplane and can do things like look for the runway, 

 watch and call out altitudes, remind pilot of the needles (you're a 

 little low, come to the left a little) and verify frequencies and remind 

 the pilot of missed approach procedures, etc.  When the autopilot is 

 handling the controls, then the single pilot can be watching the 

 needles, making sure they are telling the correct information (right 

 frequencies), keep up on missed approach procedures, watch the "magenta 

 line", look for runway lights, etc.  It is very important to be on your 

 game as far as hand-flying, but that should either be practiced in VMC 

 or with another "safety" pilot, IMHO.  When you're single pilot in IMC 

 on an approach and have an autopilot, I think it's a mistake not to use 

 it.  I know most autopilots I have flown can micro-control a lot better 

 than I can and definitely keep the needles closer to the center.  Also, 

 as long as they are working correctly, they don't have an inner ear to 

 mess them up.

 

 I had a couple of incidental/accidental IFR experiences before I got my 

 ticket and they showed me how I would react if something unexpected 

 happened.  The most obvious one was going from VMC to 0/0 in a very 

 short time (with pounding rain).  I learned a lot from that, but mainly 

 learned that, while my heart did start beating a little faster, I just 

 calmly went to my instruments and gently put the number that had been on 

 the bottom to the top and came out of it.  I was with ATC and when they 

 asked me if everything was OK, I just asked them if they had a window 

 through the weather that was actually as big as I had thought the one I 

 was going through was.

 

 On my return from the solo IFR flight the other day, I had a CFII friend 

 with me and my son in the back seat.  We had just finished a great meal 

 at Lambert's in Foley, AL.  We were leveling off at 11,000 in IMC.  It 

 was about 38 degrees, and we had clear air about 1,000 feet below me, 

 but I wanted to experience a little bit of true IMC enroute.  As we 

 leveled off I heard a loud POP.  After asking my son to look for a 

 quart-worth of oil splattered all over the baggage compartment he said, 

 "My balloon!!!"  My friend said that when he first heard the POP he 

 looked right at me.  He said I didn't react at all, but started looking 

 at engine gauges and checking to make sure everything was alright.  If 

 the gauges tell me things are fine, and especially if they agree with 

 eachother, then it must be something else.  The balloon realization put 

 my mind at ease, of course.  All of this just taught me that in a 

 situation like that, I would do the right thing.

 

 Sorry for being so long-winded.  I'll shut up for another month or so 

 now...maybe.

 

 do not archive

 

 Jesse Saint

 Saint Aviation, Inc.

 jesse(at)saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>

 Cell: 352-427-0285

 Fax: 815-377-3694

 

 On Dec 2, 2009, at 5:13 PM, Miller John wrote:

 

> At the risk of increasing the firestorm here......

>

> Personal minimums are what I require forecast (or actual) BEFORE I 

> will commit to plan a flight or start an approach.

>

> These personal minimums will vary depending on lots of things guys 

> have mentioned in previous emails.

>

> However, once I begin the approach, I fly it to the published minimums 

> and either land or go missed.

>

> Loads of past experience in very fast, single seat airplanes taught us 

> to keep it very simple once the approach is started because your total 

> focus must be on flying the approach once you start it.

>

> Trying to determine an artificial missed approach point other than the 

> published one you are flying will get you killed.......

>

> grumpy

>

> do not archive  

> On Dec 2, 2009, at 3:59 PM, William Curtis wrote:

>

>> There are fights worth fighting, but I wouldn't consider ANY war a 

>> "good war" won or lost.

>>  

>> Please explain how 500/1 "give you some margin of error" when you are 

>> in the clouds?  Going missed at some arbitrary minimum requires more 

>> maneuvering (and thus more risk) than just aligning the needles and 

>> continuing to PUBLISHED minimums.

>>

>> On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 4:05 PM, lbgjb10 <lbgjb(at)gnt.net 

>> <mailto:lbgjb(at)gnt.net>> wrote:

>>

>>     

>>     <mailto:lbgjb(at)gnt.net>>

>>

>>     Jesse--I remember when I got my rating in the early 60's--my dad,

>>     old WWII (the last good, winning one, unless you count Granada)

>>     pilot, said, put the ticket on the glare shield and hope God

>>     see's it, as I was boarding my Tripacer with a whistle stop

>>     tuning radio!!!!  Try an approach to mins. (VFR with instructor)

>>     and have him fail your instruments except your basic backup, add

>>     a little turbulence and it can really change your minimums.

>>      500/1 mile gives you some margin of error.  Your problem will be

>>     staying really current with winter and icing, and with summer

>>     boomers in FL not very conducive to 'fun' IFR.  Best and most fun

>>     IFR I had was living on the west coast with marine layer, smooth

>>     clouds with decent ceilings--made you feel like a real hot shot.

>>      Just be careful our there.  Larry

>>

>>     --------

>>     Larry and Gayle N104LG

>>

>>

>>     -- 

>>     William

>>     N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

>>

>> *

>>

>> lectric.com <http://lectric.com>

>> m">www.buildersbooks.com

>> ebuilthelp.com <http://ebuilthelp.com>

>> w.matronics.com/contribution <http://w.matronics.com/contribution>

>> tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

>> nics.com <http://nics.com>

>>

>> *

>

> =

> *

>

> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com

> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com

> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com

> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

>

> *

 

 *

 

 

 *

rebrunk42(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:44 pm Post subject: IFR

I use 1000' agl for my personal minimum with VCR at alternate. I have  

your avionics.

Sent from my iPhone

Robert E. Brunkenhoefer

Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.

520 Lawrence St.

Corpus Christi, Texas 78401

Phone: 361-888-8808

Facsimile: 361-888-6753

robert(at)brunklaw.com

On Dec 2, 2009, at 8:00 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 This brings up another question.  What are people using for  

 "personal minimums"?  Some I've talked to say they'll go if they  

 have circling minimums.  Others say 1,000 feet.  Some say that with  

 family they will only go if their destination is VFR.  I felt  

 comfortable shooting the approach when the METAR was MVFR.  I would  

 certainly feel comfortable lower with another pilot than I would  

 solo.  This pole, at least for my info, would be single pilot IFR  

 with an autopilot (just for conversation, say it's an autopilot with  

 GPS Nav or Steering and Altitude Hold, but no coupling, so the  

 equivalent of the Digiflight II non-V).

 Jesse Saint

 Saint Aviation, Inc.

 jesse(at)saintaviation.com

 Cell: 352-427-0285

 Fax: 815-377-3694

 On Dec 1, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Tim Olson wrote:

> 

>

> Big congrats to you...that's a huge accomplishment and now you've

> earned the lower insurance besides.   You're right, it's a

> plane that is just perfect for IFR X/C flights.  Glad

> you're having a good time!

>

> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

> do not archive

> Jesse Saint wrote:

>> Well, I flew my first official IFR solo flight today in the RV-10  

>> (after passing my IFR checkride a couple of weeks ago).  For those  

>> who need the extra encouragement in building, this is an  

>> incredibly stable platform for IFR flight, especially with a good  

>> autopilot driven by a good IFR GPS.

>> do not archive

>> Jesse Saint

>> Saint Aviation, Inc.

>> jesse(at)saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>

>> Cell: 352-427-0285

>> Fax: 815-377-3694

>> *

>

>

jrlark

Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 72

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:36 pm Post subject: IFR

Jesse



I had always viewed single engine IFR as a rather crazy affair (crazy as in 

"I'm crazy to be doing this").  Having said that I have had a rating for 

over 30 years, flown some multi engine, but just don't have a lot of 

experience.  About 12 years ago I bought my first aircraft (Cessna 

Cardinal ) and started flying single engine, no auto pilot IFR.  I decided 

on a personal minimun of 700 and 1 so as to give me a chance to pick out a 

spot to go should my engine hic cup.



I'm sure you will get a thousand different opinions on this subject.  With 

your well equipped -10 I would pick set a personal  minimum and then slowly 

work lower to a point you are comfortable with.



Congrats  and good luck.  Please be cautious.



Rick

---

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:57 pm Post subject: IFR

As I embark on the IFR ticket this post is worth a bunch to me. Since my -10 is well equipped for IFR flight,  testing all those functions have been part if wringing out the airplane, I appreciate the technology of my avionics and having shot some ILS approaches two weeks ago I can say this aircraft "hand flies" really nice. I like "flying" the airplane and I like the fact that if needed there is a backup to "me" My humble thought regarding IFR flight personal minimums are not so much terminating the approach but understanding your own skills..I had 130 hours of 172 time prior to flying my RV...I had to graduate to a high performance pilot and I recall my first take off as holy crap I'm about to blow through pattern altitude and my head is still a 1/2 mile behind me!!  With that said and a good 30 hours of instruction from three good friends/CFI's  who loved to jump in and fly with me on my much appreciated fuel bill, I feel very proficient in the RV now...Where am I going with this is that the AP was only used to make sure it worked properly during systems checks..I was informed that the F-100 AP stunk but the F-16 was good enough for formation work...but C.T., my friend/ retired USAF fighter jock Colonel/ CFI and in good enough shape to kick my butt in his 70's told me you'll never get good if you don't fly the airplane..and you wont stay good at it if you let those avionics fly it for you...I feel good point to point and running down the LOC/GS.....but I agree the IFR ticket is the Masters Degree to the PPL..looking forward to the challenge!!  Gotta say since I finished building it's nice to see a flying post!!! The vertical stab build seems so far in the past now...and I love seeing the new builders fielding the same questions Tim, Scott, Deems, John Cox before he took that vocabulary class that turned him into what he is now, myself and others from the defunct Yahoo days were bouncing off each other have not changed..the only thing missing is the long lost James McClow..I .never liked clowns till I !

 met Jimm

y

 Mac!! He was the reason spell check was invented...(Deems too! Sorry buddy)



Rick S.

40185.....N246RS

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

coop85(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:46 pm Post subject: IFR

I'll add my 2 cents to the game.  I've flown a lot of IFR in single seat

fighters that couldn't use an autopilot on the approaches (or didn't have

one at all) so I'm not 100% sold on the necessity of an AP, but a big fan of

proficiency.  Having said that, the RV-10 on autopilot certainly is a dream

and personal minimums should be fluid based on currency and familiarity with

the departure and destination.  



I have the TruTrak with all the bells and whistles, and while it's a great

system I have noticed it gets overwhelmed while slowing and configuring on

the approach unless I feed in trim periodically.  The danger is there is no

indication of needing to add up trim and it will get off glidepath

significantly and could be insidiously dangerous.  Just something to be

aware of.



By the way, if it turns out I'm the only one with this issue and it's

because I probably wired something wrong, please let me know.



Marcus

40286



--

daveleikam(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:07 pm Post subject: IFR

I too am in the last stages of earning my IFR ticket.  It is one of the most 

challenging things I have ever done.  I am doing it in a 172 with no GPS or 

AP.  It has an ADF    I appreciate all the posts on the subject.  But I 

have a building question.



Stein is building me a fine G900 panel.  However, the panel does not have 

the small flanges on the lower sides to rivet onto the side skins.  Have 

others with this panel made brackets or not connected it at all?  Christer 

at Steinair said he has not heard how or if anyone is accomplishing this.



Dave Leikam

RV-10 #40496

N89DA

Muskego, WI

---

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:16 pm Post subject: IFR

Marcus,



You probably have one of the earlier models of the TruTrak servos without the trim sensor.  All RV-10 pitch servos now should have the trim sensor which will tell you to trim up or down as needed so the servo doesn't have to hold trim.  You might want to check.  You also likely may not have the torque-enhanced servo.  The torque-enhancer has a "wooden" wheel with a cable that runs a metal "arm" forward and aft.  The non-torque-enhanced servo just has a rotary arm that connects to the bell crank with a little pushrod, just like the roll servo.  The torque-enhanced/trim-sensing servo is a little more expensive, but it does take care of the trimming issue you mention.  The way to tell if your servo is trim-sensing is if the motor portion is hard-attached to the base or if there is a little bit of flexibility in the connection.  If flexibility, it is trim-sensing.  If hard-attached, it is not.



By this description, you probably know which one you have.  If you have the trim-sensing servo, then you are missing the trim-sensing wire.  If I remember correctly, the roll servo has 7 wires, so that would mean that the pitch servo should have 8 (or is it 6 and 7?).  If you look in your installation manual it should tell you.



TruTrak is very good about upgrading things like that, possibly for just the difference in cost.



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694



On Dec 2, 2009, at 10:45 PM, Marcus Cooper wrote:



[quote] 

 

 I'll add my 2 cents to the game.  I've flown a lot of IFR in single seat

 fighters that couldn't use an autopilot on the approaches (or didn't have

 one at all) so I'm not 100% sold on the necessity of an AP, but a big fan of

 proficiency.  Having said that, the RV-10 on autopilot certainly is a dream

 and personal minimums should be fluid based on currency and familiarity with

 the departure and destination.  

 

 I have the TruTrak with all the bells and whistles, and while it's a great

 system I have noticed it gets overwhelmed while slowing and configuring on

 the approach unless I feed in trim periodically.  The danger is there is no

 indication of needing to add up trim and it will get off glidepath

 significantly and could be insidiously dangerous.  Just something to be

 aware of.

 

 By the way, if it turns out I'm the only one with this issue and it's

 because I probably wired something wrong, please let me know.

 

 Marcus

 40286

 

 --

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