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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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 Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:00 am Post subject: There I was on downwind |
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According to the weather yesterday was the last somewhat warm day for awhile and the wind calmed in the late afternoon. Since I'm leaving for Seattle on Thursday I couldn't resist the chance to fly Zulu Delta one last time. Nothing fancy, just some pattern work and a chance to buzz the cars on the dirt road that runs by the end of 17. I was on my fourth or fifth circuit downwind at about 70 mph when I lifted my feet off the rudder peddles. Immediately I felt the tail wagging. Put my feet firmly back on the peddles and the wagging stopped. Hmm. Tried it again, wagging immediately began and I let it go for a few seconds. The amplitude of the wagging was increased with each wag. So, it appears that Zulu Delta gets a new cover job on the rudder when I get back. All I have to do is figure out how to get the hangar warm in the Kansas winter.
Rick Girard
do not archive
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:49 am Post subject: There I was on downwind |
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Rick G/Gang:
Rudder flutter is a normal characteristic of Kolb aircraft. It is a large control surface, hinged on the leading edge, and unbalanced. I think the way the prop blast hits the tail section, the flexibility of the tail post and tail boom, and lack of a counter balance, are contributing factors. Richard Pike installed a counter balance weight on his mkIII rudder and solved the problem. Keeping your feet firmly planted on the rudder pedals will prevent rudder flutter. On long cross country flights, excess pressure on the rudder pedals gets very tiring. I solved my rudder flutter problem by taking a cue from the "heavy feet" solution. I doubled up on rudder pedal springs. Now I can fly feet off with not rudder flutter. No, doubling up on rudder springs does not make operating the rudder pedals more difficult. The heavier spring tension balances out. It is the same principle as tying the rudder pedals together to secure the rudder while tied down, especially with a tail wind.
What agrevates the unbalanced rudder to cause flutter? I believe it is the way the prop blast hits the tail. It pushes the rudder into the slip stream. The slip stream kicks it back. Without resistance from the rudder cables and pedals, the amplitude increases, usually noticed first by a wing tip shuttling fore and aft.
Some Kolbs do not experience rudder flutter, even with feet removed from the pedals.
On the ground, during static test runs, what causes the tail section of the Kolb to shake laterally? I think it is the same thing I described above, prop blast kicks the rudder one way, and the prop blast on the other side of the vertical stabilizer kicks it back.
My opinion and experience only.
john h
mkIII
I was on my fourth or fifth circuit downwind at about 70 mph when I lifted my feet off the rudder peddles. Immediately I felt the tail wagging. Put my feet firmly back on the peddles and the wagging stopped. Hmm. Tried it again, wagging immediately began and I let it go for a few seconds. The amplitude of the wagging was increased with each wag. So, it appears that Zulu Delta gets a new cover job on the rudder when I get back. All I have to do is figure out how to get the hangar warm in the Kansas winter.
[quote]
Rick Girard
[b]
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:23 am Post subject: There I was on downwind |
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Hi john,
I learn things at the most unexpected times and from unexpected sources. I don,t
believe I would ever have thought of tying the rudder pedals together to keep the rudder from
flopping around when tied down in a stiff wind.
Frank Goodnight
Firestar2
55161
do not archive
On Dec 2, 2009, at 9:49 AM, John Hauck wrote:
[quote] Rick G/Gang:
Rudder flutter is a normal characteristic of Kolb aircraft. It is a large control surface, hinged on the leading edge, and unbalanced. I think the way the prop blast hits the tail section, the flexibility of the tail post and tail boom, and lack of a counter balance, are contributing factors. Richard Pike installed a counter balance weight on his mkIII rudder and solved the problem. Keeping your feet firmly planted on the rudder pedals will prevent rudder flutter. On long cross country flights, excess pressure on the rudder pedals gets very tiring. I solved my rudder flutter problem by taking a cue from the "heavy feet" solution. I doubled up on rudder pedal springs. Now I can fly feet off with not rudder flutter. No, doubling up on rudder springs does not make operating the rudder pedals more difficult. The heavier spring tension balances out. It is the same principle as tying the rudder pedals together to secure the rudder while tied down, especially with a tail wind.
What agrevates the unbalanced rudder to cause flutter? I believe it is the way the prop blast hits the tail. It pushes the rudder into the slip stream. The slip stream kicks it back. Without resistance from the rudder cables and pedals, the amplitude increases, usually noticed first by a wing tip shuttling fore and aft.
Some Kolbs do not experience rudder flutter, even with feet removed from the pedals.
On the ground, during static test runs, what causes the tail section of the Kolb to shake laterally? I think it is the same thing I described above, prop blast kicks the rudder one way, and the prop blast on the other side of the vertical stabilizer kicks it back.
My opinion and experience only.
john h
mkIII
I was on my fourth or fifth circuit downwind at about 70 mph when I lifted my feet off the rudder peddles. Immediately I felt the tail wagging. Put my feet firmly back on the peddles and the wagging stopped. Hmm. Tried it again, wagging immediately began and I let it go for a few seconds. The amplitude of the wagging was increased with each wag. So, it appears that Zulu Delta gets a new cover job on the rudder when I get back. All I have to do is figure out how to get the hangar warm in the Kansas winter.
| Quote: |
Rick Girard
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Ralph B
Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:40 am Post subject: Re: There I was on downwind |
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rickofudall | Quote: | According to the weather yesterday was the last somewhat warm day for awhile and the wind calmed in the late afternoon. Since I'm leaving for Seattle on Thursday I couldn't resist the chance to fly Zulu Delta one last time. Nothing fancy, just some pattern work and a chance to buzz the cars on the dirt road that runs by the end of 17. I was on my fourth or fifth circuit downwind at about 70 mph when I lifted my feet off the rudder peddles. Immediately I felt the tail wagging. Put my feet firmly back on the peddles and the wagging stopped. Hmm. Tried it again, wagging immediately began and I let it go for a few seconds. The amplitude of the wagging was increased with each wag. So, it appears that Zulu Delta gets a new cover job on the rudder when I get back. All I have to do is figure out how to get the hangar warm in the Kansas winter.
Rick Girard
do not archive |
I experienced a type of flutter that turned into a severe yaw oscillation. The wings were yawing back and forth with the tail wagging. I pulled up into a stall to stop it. Had I not done that, the wings may have torn loose or the boom tube may have broke. This all happened as I was flying over a smoke stack without my feet on the rudder pedals. I looked over the plane for damage afterwards and found nothing. I've flown many hours since this incident and always keep my feet on the pedals. I haven't experienced it since, but I haven't flown over any smoke stacks either.
Ralph B
Original Firestar
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Ralph B
Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours |
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frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:18 am Post subject: There I was on downwind |
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Hi Kolbers,
I fly a Fire star 2 with a HKS engine , only have 110 hrs on it. Have
never experinced
any type of rudder problem , I usually fly with my feet off the rudder
at least 1/2 the time
unless it is rough enough that the plane is really bouncing around.
Frank Goodnight
Brownsville , TX
On Dec 2, 2009, at 10:40 AM, Ralph B wrote:
| Quote: |
rickofudall
> According to the weather yesterday was the last somewhat warm day
> for awhile and the wind calmed in the late afternoon. Since I'm
> leaving for Seattle on Thursday I couldn't resist the chance to fly
> Zulu Delta one last time. Nothing fancy, just some pattern work and
> a chance to buzz the cars on the dirt road that runs by the end of
> 17. I was on my fourth or fifth circuit downwind at about 70 mph
> when I lifted my feet off the rudder peddles. Immediately I felt
> the tail wagging. Put my feet firmly back on the peddles and the
> wagging stopped. Hmm. Tried it again, wagging immediately began and
> I let it go for a few seconds. The amplitude of the wagging was
> increased with each wag. So, it appears that Zulu Delta gets a new
> cover job on the rudder when I get back. All I have to do is figure
> out how to get the hangar warm in the Kansas winter.
>
> Rick Girard
> do not archive
I have experienced a type of flutter that turned into a severe yaw
oscillation. The wings were yawing back and forth with the tail
wagging. I pulled up into a stall to stop it. Had I not done that,
the wings may have torn loose or the boom tube may have broke. This
all happened as I was flying over a smoke stack without my feet on
the rudder pedals. I looked over the plane for damage afterwards and
found nothing. I've flown many hours since this incident and always
keep my feet on the pedals. I haven't experienced it since.
Ralph B
Original Firestar
--------
Ralph B
Original Firestar 447
N91493 E-AB
970 hours
22 years flying it
Kolbra 912UL
N20386
1 year flying it
Read this topic online here:
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:32 am Post subject: There I was on downwind |
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I usually fly with my feet off the rudder
| Quote: | at least 1/2 the time
unless it is rough enough that the plane is really bouncing around.
Frank Goodnight
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Frank G/Gang:
Some do, some don't. My Ultrastar and mkIII do, Firestar didn't.
john h
mkIII
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:45 am Post subject: Re: There I was on downwind |
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Here is the counterbalance I made to stop the flutter. Ugly as sin, but works. Since I didn't want to take the tail off and turn it sideways to see what it would take to balance it, I just kept adding weight to the front until it would fly feet off and behave.
You just have to decide which is easier - crawling up into the nosebowl (John is obviously more streamlined than I am) and fighting with stronger springs (and not snagging/sticking them into your fingers) or sticking a bird perch into the top of the rudder. Ya pays yer money and takes yer cherce.
Here's the link to tubing sizes, etc.
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg6.htm
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:20 am Post subject: There I was on downwind |
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> You just have to decide which is easier - crawling up into the nosebowl
(John is obviously more streamlined than I am) and fighting with stronger
springs (and not snagging/sticking them into your fingers) or sticking a
bird perch into the top of the rudder. Ya pays yer money and takes yer
cherce.
Rev/Gang:
I didn't have a problem installing double springs on the rudder pedals.
Took a few minutes to fabricate a few suitable tangs to hook and seperate.
No hint of rudder flutter since I doubled up. Seriously, a very easy job.
If I remember correctly, the rudder pedals on my mark three are pretty easy
to reach without becoming a spelunker.
I prefer my double springs, quick, simple, and work, over attaching a big
weather vane on the rudder. A much cleaner installation from my point of
view.
Plus, I already had the springs on the shelf. 
john h
mkIII - Repairing dings in my new Warp Drive blades after a couple
unidentified flying objects made contact with all three blades.
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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cristalclear13
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: There I was on downwind |
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| John Hauck wrote: |
Rev/Gang:
I didn't have a problem installing double springs on the rudder pedals.
Took a few minutes to fabricate a few suitable tangs to hook and seperate.
No hint of rudder flutter since I doubled up. Seriously, a very easy job.
If I remember correctly, the rudder pedals on my mark three are pretty easy
to reach without becoming a spelunker.
I prefer my double springs, quick, simple, and work, over attaching a big
weather vane on the rudder. A much cleaner installation from my point of
view.
Plus, I already had the springs on the shelf.
john h
mkIII - Repairing dings in my new Warp Drive blades after a couple
unidentified flying objects made contact with all three blades. |
Here's the picture again. John, bet your Miss P'fer is happy to be in the air again!
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Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009 |
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:30 am Post subject: Re: There I was on downwind |
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Frank,
John H's recommendation to "tie the rudder pedals together" for windy tie-down conditions is essential in this part of the world where 10 mph breeze is considered calm winds.
For best effect the rudder pedals must be fastened together stiffly, not just so they don't move much. I have a pair of steel flat bars about 1" wide and 6-8" long joined by a stove bolt in the middle and a wing nut. I clamp them on the rudder pedals so they are rigid with no movement of the pedals or rudder at all. I also have a long piece of bright orange ribbon on them to remind me to remove them during preflight. If you can find a piece of channel that fits down over the top of the rudder pedals snugly you can dispense with the bolt and adjustment.
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Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:50 am Post subject: There I was on downwind |
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> Here's the picture again. John, bet your Miss P'fer is happy to be in
the air again!
| Quote: |
--------
Cristal Waters
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Thanks, Cristal:
I had forgotten exactly what my rudder springs looked like.
We aren't quite ready to fly. I finished up with prop last night. Was a
little disappointed with my spot paint job. Sprayed with Krylon flat black
paint. When it was dry, I could see the outline of the repairs. Then I got
an idea. Rubbed the blades lightly with a scotch brite pad lenth ways. No
more patches. I think this is what Warp Drive does. If not, it worked just
fine anyhow.
Installing a new Titan exhaust system too. Looking to bring down the
cockpit noise level some.
If the weather cooperates, I'll fly today or tomorrow.
Will pull the carb float bowls to insure they are clean prior to first
start up.
john h
mkIII - Wishing for warmer weather.
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:15 am Post subject: Re: There I was on downwind |
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John H,
I don't know what kind of exhaust/muffler system you had before the Titan but the Titan exhaust (unless they've changed it in recent years) is notoriously loud. When I was flying a Titan my 912 had a custom built exhaust 4 into 1 like the Titan but with a real glass-pack muffler about 3 1/2" diameter and maybe 12" long and it was the quietest Titan 912 around. I hope your Titan muffler is better than what they used to use. Attached is a photo.
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| 912 with good muffler system |
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Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:31 am Post subject: There I was on downwind |
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> John H's recommendation to "tie the rudder pedals together" for windy
tie-down conditions is essential in this part of the world where 10 mph
breeze is considered calm winds.
| Quote: |
For best effect the rudder pedals must be fastened together stiffly, not
just so they don't move much. >
--------
Thom Riddle
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Thom R/Gang:
If my rudder pedals don't move, that is stiff enough for me.
I can assure you all, that a couple wraps of the pedals with a bungee cord,
or a piece of rope, will get the job done. Not necessary to carrry steel
straps in the aircraft. Bungee or rope is much easier to handle.
john h
mkIII
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:40 am Post subject: Re: There I was on downwind |
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John H,
I'm not arguing against bungees if they hold the pedals firmly. Firmly holding the pedals is the goal, regardless of the method. Just describing what I use, as are you.
do not archive.
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Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:51 am Post subject: There I was on downwind |
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| Quote: | I don't know what kind of exhaust/muffler system you had before the Titan
but the Titan exhaust (unless they've changed it in recent years) is
notoriously loud.
--------
Thom Riddle
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Thom R/Gang:
The Titan exhaust is quieter than what I have now.
john h
mkIII
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:02 am Post subject: There I was on downwind |
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> I'm not arguing against bungees if they hold the pedals firmly. Firmly
holding the pedals is the goal, regardless of the method. Just describing
what I use, as are you.
>
Thom R/Gang:
As I was fixing my third cup of coffee I realized I haven't had to use a
bungee on the rudder pedals since I went to double rudder pedal springs.
That's what happens when one doesn't fly enough to be familiar with their
airplane.
john h
mkIII
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:31 am Post subject: There I was on downwind |
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Thom R/Gang:
If my rudder pedals don't move, that is stiff enough for me.
I can assure you all, that a couple wraps of the pedals with a bungee cord,
or a piece of rope, will get the job done. Not necessary to carrry steel
straps in the aircraft. Bungee or rope is much easier to handle.
john h
mkIII
I borrowed an idea from our old friend Arizona Dave. When parked I have a
short piece of parachute cord that has a loop at both ends. One end goes
over one rudder peddle, loops around the other, then routed around the tube
in front where the rudder springs attach, then back to the control stick.
There are 2 more short pieces of parachute cord one goes to each side of the
fuselage cage at the sides of the back rest, when they are all tightened up
it keeps the rudder and the control stick all locked in place.
Boyd Young
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:38 am Post subject: There I was on downwind |
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> I borrowed an idea from our old friend Arizona Dave.
Arizona Dave was a class act. Met him at the first Monument Valley Flyin.
He is still sorely missed every year at MV.
john h
mkIII
DO NOT ARCHIVE
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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zeprep251(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:06 am Post subject: There I was on downwind |
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John,
I also doubled up the springs,all four the same,still have a little wiggle.Thought about heavier springs but then got to thinking about the rudder horns structural limits and figured I better not.Going to revisit the issue when back home from Fla in the spring.Thought at first the Jabiru was the problem.
G.Aman MK-3C 200 Jabiru
Universal fit parts, don't.
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:06 pm Post subject: There I was on downwind |
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Gary A/Gang:
Could be loose tail wires, fabric tension, a quirk that can not be identified, etc.
If you can stop the shuttle with your feet on the pedals, maybe you need heavier springs. My springs are pretty stiff.
john h
mkIII
[quote] I also doubled up the springs,all four the same,still have a little wiggle.Thought about heavier springs but then got to thinking about the rudder horns structural limits and figured I better not.Going to revisit the issue when back home from Fla in the spring.Thought at first the Jabiru was the problem.
G.Aman MK-3C 200 Jabiru
[b]
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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