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brian.manlove(at)verizon.
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 Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:18 pm Post subject: I don't understand... |
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I am having a hard time understanding why anyone would even consider NOT fixing their 601/650, if they built it themselves. If you live up north, it’ll be a good winter project. Any home-built kit should be flown by carefully by the seat of your pants anyway... and adding hours will add confidence. With all of the different “certified” aircraft that have crashed and burned, I believe Zenith is doing this for complete redundancy, not because the aircraft is inherently badly designed. Look at the THOUSANDS of hours on these 601’s, including some very hard flying by some very good pilots… without incident.
I can understand the desire for redundancy. But I also understand that being careful and thorough and knowing what you are doing is more important. I just re-read “Stick and Rudder” by Wolfgang Langenwieshe, and there is a chapter in there by an NTSB accident investigator. More novice pilots have died trying to circle their house and do “wing salutes” than almost every other category. Add some too-sloppy control cables and a slow speed, tight turn and I don’t care if you’re flying a brand-new anything, you are risking your life.
If anyone wants to give me their 601, I’ll be happy to come and pick it up. I have a nice trailer.
CH750/Corvair, in the works.
[quote][b]
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mhubel
Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 141
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: I don't understand... |
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While I can see your point, to some degree I can understand. Some of us decided to build a plane once with no intention of ever doing it again. It was fun once. Then it was time to fly it. This "upgrade" is a very significant fraction of the original build time.
I had doubts myself. Had it not been for the two others who have offered to help do the modifications, my enthusiasm to do this would be very low.
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_________________
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
240 hr TAF
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sabrina
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: I don't understand... |
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Do Not Archive
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Last edited by sabrina on Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:44 pm Post subject: I don't understand... |
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In a message dated 12/3/2009 9:09:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, chicago2paris(at)msn.com writes:
| Quote: | since Zenith has moved back toward main spar AN bolts that cannot be inspected and re-torqued. I don't know if it would take months or more than a year, but at some point while I am in college I would be in worse shape than I am now.
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Sabrina
In the Q&A he has always said rivets are better than bolts. The bolts in your pic might just have been temporary since the hole is the same size for either.
Mine is riveted all the way across... it makes no since to add bolts where there is no inspection covers and I don't want to have to re open the wing in two years. Not to mention the added weight of bolts.
Jeff
[quote][b]
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zenithlist(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:48 pm Post subject: I don't understand... |
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" I believe Zenith is doing this for complete redundancy, not because the aircraft is inherently badly designed. Look at the THOUSANDS of hours on these 601’s, including some very hard flying by some very good pilots… without incident."
If one really believes in the above statement, then it should not be difficult to understand the additional work required to modify completed aircraft is unnecessary.
[quote][b]
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hansriet
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: I don't understand... |
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[quote="Sabrina"]If your XL winged craft is parked outside, the upgrade could actually degrade the strength of the main spar over time since Zenith has moved back toward main spar AN bolts that cannot be inspected and re-torqued. I don't know if it would take months or more than a year, but at some point while I am in college I would be in worse shape than I am now.[/quote]
I noticed that too. Also the aileron balance is bolted in between the two new aileron ribs. I don't like either of these solutions.
Hans van Riet
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psm(at)att.net
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:01 pm Post subject: I don't understand... |
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As I understand it this coin has two bad sides . . .
We discussed this situation at my last EAA chapter meeting. One
member (who happens to be a supervisor at Boeing) mentioned a
potential problem with aircraft rivets. His point was that if the
rivets are not properly set they may not compress the parts they are
supposed to hold together. This is not an issue (according to him)
with bolts since the torque applied is directly reflected in the joint.
I didn't really understand his comments, but the bottom line is there
are potential problems with bolts or rivets - especially rivets set
by builders who may have selected the Zodiac design because it didn't
require setting any hard rivets.
Paul
XL upgrade kit on order
At 06:52 PM 12/3/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | the upgrade could actually degrade the strength of the main spar
over time since Zenith has moved back toward main spar AN bolts that
cannot be inspected and re-torqued.
|
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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rsteele(at)rjsit.com
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:50 pm Post subject: I don't understand... |
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I certainly understand "no solid rivets" comment. I have every
intention to rivet mine, but I'll be buying a bunch of cheap aluminum
at Home Depot and a bunch of extra rivets to practice with.
Fortunately my airport is "infested" with RV builders, so I have some
more experienced people around.
I just can't see having the inspection headache and weight.
Ron
On Dec 3, 2009, at 10:01 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
| Quote: |
As I understand it this coin has two bad sides . . .
We discussed this situation at my last EAA chapter meeting. One
member (who happens to be a supervisor at Boeing) mentioned a
potential problem with aircraft rivets. His point was that if the
rivets are not properly set they may not compress the parts they are
supposed to hold together. This is not an issue (according to him)
with bolts since the torque applied is directly reflected in the
joint.
I didn't really understand his comments, but the bottom line is
there are potential problems with bolts or rivets - especially
rivets set by builders who may have selected the Zodiac design
because it didn't require setting any hard rivets.
Paul
XL upgrade kit on order
At 06:52 PM 12/3/2009, you wrote:
> the upgrade could actually degrade the strength of the main spar
> over time since Zenith has moved back toward main spar AN bolts
> that cannot be inspected and re-torqued.
|
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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stormyflight(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:51 pm Post subject: I don't understand... |
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I guess I don't understand.
If a bolt is properly torqued and has some locking feature it is just as reliable as a rivet. Our aircraft has hundreds of non serviceable bolts, never been a problem. Certified aircraft as well.
Jim Machin
601xl Quick build, 0-200
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Ronald Steele <rsteele(at)rjsit.com> wrote:
| Quote: | From: Ronald Steele <rsteele(at)rjsit.com>
Subject: Re: Re: I don't understand...
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 7:46 PM
--> Zenith601-List message posted
by: Ronald Steele <rsteele(at)rjsit.com>
I certainly understand "no solid rivets" comment. I
have every intention to rivet mine, but I'll be buying a
bunch of cheap aluminum at Home Depot and a bunch of extra
rivets to practice with. Fortunately my airport is
"infested" with RV builders, so I have some more experienced
people around.
I just can't see having the inspection headache and
weight.
Ron
On Dec 3, 2009, at 10:01 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
>
<psm(at)att.net>
>
> As I understand it this coin has two bad sides . . .
>
> We discussed this situation at my last EAA chapter
meeting. One member (who happens to be a supervisor at
Boeing) mentioned a potential problem with aircraft
rivets. His point was that if the rivets are not
properly set they may not compress the parts they are
supposed to hold together. This is not an issue
(according to him) with bolts since the torque applied is
directly reflected in the joint.
>
> I didn't really understand his comments, but the
bottom line is there are potential problems with bolts or
rivets - especially rivets set by builders who may have
selected the Zodiac design because it didn't require setting
any hard rivets.
>
> Paul
> XL upgrade kit on order
>
>
> At 06:52 PM 12/3/2009, you wrote:
>> the upgrade could actually degrade the strength of
the main spar over time since Zenith has moved back toward
main spar AN bolts that cannot be inspected and re-torqued.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Lists This Month --
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Raiser. Click on
out more about
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-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Email Forum -
FAQ,
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John Bolding
Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:01 am Post subject: I don't understand... |
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The one that pops to mind instantly is the rod bolts on the engine
LO&SLO John
---
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ter_turn(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:48 am Post subject: I don't understand... |
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One answer may be that the "upgrades" are designed to be builder manageable. To use AN rivets would require the dismantling of the entire wing and not everyone has the equipment or the ability to set the size of solid rivets that would be required to attach the 1/8" extruded angle through the upper spar cap.
do not archive
Terry
601XL Plans
From: John Bolding <jnbolding1(at)teleshare.net>
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, December 4, 2009 4:56:22 AM
Subject: Re: Re: I don't understand...
[quote][b]
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sabrina
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:16 am Post subject: Re: I don't understand... |
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Do Not Archive
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List |
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Last edited by sabrina on Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:08 am Post subject: I don't understand... |
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Just my point of view...
In all my years of flying ultralights and experimentals (plus a few Cessnas once in a while), I dont know yet a pilot/builder that will only fly his airplane since he finished the building process.
During the year. lots of the Saturdays (Sundays?), during the rain season here (grass airfield wet) and most of the winter time, we spend lots of time repairing, upgradiing, detailing, mantaining, etc our airplanes.
Some of this mantainance or repairs could take lots of hours (like the Zac Upgrade). The airplane has to be always in Perfect Shape. This is part of the fun, not a reason to complain.
Is like our cars, I dont know wht but only the wife's car needs just gasoline to run... 
Saludos
Gary Gower
601XL JAB 3300 waiting for the Upgrade Kit.
Owning a salt water (big) boat sure needs lots of cleaning and mantainance... everytime it used "for fun". Sure Not for me.
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, mhubel <mhubel(at)nemon.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: mhubel <mhubel(at)nemon.com>
Subject: Re: I don't understand...
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 8:54 PM
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "mhubel" <mhubel(at)nemon.com (mhubel(at)nemon.com)>
While I can see your point, to some degree I can understand. Some of us decided to build a plane once with no intention of ever doing it again. It was fun once. Then it was time to fly it. This "upgrade" is a very significant fraction of the original build time.
I had doubts myself. Had it not been for the two others who have offered to help do the modifications, my enthusiasm to do this would be very low.
--------
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
41 hr TAF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276087#27608= * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com= --> http://www.bsp; ========================http://www.matronics.com-> http://forum======================
|
[quote][b]
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ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:43 am Post subject: I don't understand... |
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Hello Sabrina,
Not to directly desagree with you, but a wodden and rag airplane has AN bolts in the wing spars, they get recovered several times (10 or 20 years) before most of the bolts are changed. Sure this not count the "structural" bolts that hold the wings, (same as our alu planes) but the bolts that hold the metal fittings that hold the struts to the spars, main supports plates, etc...
Why will be diferent in our airplanes?
Can we aply some clear èpoxy barnish over the exposed bolt and nut area, so they will prevent corrosion, but still see the security "red paint dot"? Is it needed?
I am sure that lots of aluminum (certified) aircraft have several AN bolts inside the wings... I am sure non of them change all the bolts in a yearly basis...
Saludos
Gary Gower
Just thinking a lot about the upgrade comments from all of us...
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:
[quote][b]
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ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:53 am Post subject: I don't understand... |
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This was my point in my last mail I answered to Sabrina... Only the "structural" bolts need to be serviced as a mantainance basis.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Hope my English was better...
--- On Fri, 12/4/09, J.T. Machin <stormyflight(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: J.T. Machin <stormyflight(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: I don't understand...
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 2:48 AM
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "J.T. Machin" <stormyflight(at)yahoo.com (stormyflight(at)yahoo.com)>
I guess I don't understand.
If a bolt is properly torqued and has some locking feature it is just as reliable as a rivet. Our aircraft has hundreds of non serviceable bolts, never been a problem. Certified aircraft as well.
Jim Machin
601xl Quick build, 0-200
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Ronald Steele <rsteele(at)rjsit.com (rsteele(at)rjsit.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | From: Ronald Steele <rsteele(at)rjsit.com (rsteele(at)rjsit.com)>
Subject: Re: Re: I don't understand...
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com (zenith601-list(at)matronics.com)
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 7:46 PM
--> Zenith601-List message posted
by: Ronald Steele <rsteele(at)rjsit.com (rsteele(at)rjsit.com)>
I certainly understand "no solid rivets" comment. I
have every intention to rivet mine, but I'll be buying a
bunch of cheap aluminum at Home Depot and a bunch of extra
rivets to practice with. Fortunately my airport is
"infested" with RV builders, so I have some more experienced
people around.
I just can't see having the inspection headache and
weight.
Ron
On Dec 3, 2009, at 10:01 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
> --> Zenith601-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
<psm(at)att.net (psm(at)att.net)>
>
> As I understand it this coin has two bad sides . . .
>
> We discussed this situation at my last EAA chapter
meeting. One member (who happens to be a supervisor at
Boeing) mentioned a potential problem with aircraft
rivets. His point was that if the rivets are not
properly set they may not compress the parts they are
supposed to hold together. This is not an issue
(according to him) with bolts since the torque applied is
directly reflected in the joint.
>
> I didn't really understand his comments, but the
bottom line is there are potential problems with bolts or
rivets - especially rivets set by builders who may have
selected the Zodiac design because it didn't require setting
any hard rivets.
>
> Paul
> XL upgrade kit on order
>
>
> At 06:52 PM 12/3/2009, you wrote:
>> the upgrade could actually degrade the strength of
the main spar over time since Zenith has moved back toward
main spar AN bolts that cannot be inspected and re-torqued.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Lists This Month --
Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Raiser. Click on
out more about
Gifts provided
www.aeroelectric.com
www.buildersbooks.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Email Forum -
FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
& href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.bsp; ========================http://www.matronics.com-> http://forum======================
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[quote][b]
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stormyflight(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:04 pm Post subject: I don't understand... |
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Hi Sabrina,
How are you doing?
You are right about the AN3's being delicate little things hence my comment about being properly torqued. But it is not hard hard to do if you have the right torque wrench and believe what it is telling you. Also, hole quality is critical since the bolts don't squish to fill the hole. My comment was just saying that if done right, it works just as well as a rivet and there should be no tendency to come loose (no re-torquing required). There are also some non-driven rivets that we use a lot called Hyloks which are set using wrenches. A little pricey at about $5 each, but would definitely do the job.
Jim
--- On Fri, 12/4/09, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:
| Quote: | From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: I don't understand...
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 10:16 AM
--> Zenith601-List message posted
by: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Hello Jim!
I am talking about the outboard AN3 spar cap hardware, not
the two AN4 spar cap bolts at the root.
I have always been told that AN3 bolts are the most abused
bolt in the industry. They are often over-torqued
loosing their integrity without any indication. So too
the AN4 has at least double, if not 3 ½ times the torque
rating with a much larger (20 v 5) margin for
error.
But their weight adds up really quickly.
(Our rod bolts are cotter keyed in our 0-200As)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 76196#276196
Lists This Month --
Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Raiser. Click on
out more about
Gifts provided
www.aeroelectric.com
www.buildersbooks.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Email Forum -
FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
|
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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sabrina
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: I don't understand... |
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Do Not Archive
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Last edited by sabrina on Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:29 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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aussiech650
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
Posts: 25
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:23 pm Post subject: I don't understand... |
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Gary,
Have you also noticed that they only need gas when we get in to drive the dammed things, how do they get them to run so long on the low fuel light?
Regards,
Greg Cox
Zenith Zodiac CH650, VH-ZDC
Sydney, Australia (Cecil Hills)
Web - www.mykitlog.com/aussiech650
From: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Sent: Saturday, 5 December 2009 6:05 AM
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: I don't understand...
Just my point of view...
In all my years of flying ultralights and experimentals (plus a few Cessnas once in a while), I dont know yet a pilot/builder that will only fly his airplane since he finished the building process.
During the year. lots of the Saturdays (Sundays?), during the rain season here (grass airfield wet) and most of the winter time, we spend lots of time repairing, upgradiing, detailing, mantaining, etc our airplanes.
Some of this mantainance or repairs could take lots of hours (like the Zac Upgrade). The airplane has to be always in Perfect Shape. This is part of the fun, not a reason to complain.
Is like our cars, I dont know wht but only the wife's car needs just gasoline to run...
Saludos
Gary Gower
601XL JAB 3300 waiting for the Upgrade Kit.
Owning a salt water (big) boat sure needs lots of cleaning and mantainance... everytime it used "for fun". Sure Not for me.
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, mhubel <mhubel(at)nemon.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: mhubel <mhubel(at)nemon.com>
Subject: Re: I don't understand...
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 8:54 PM
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "mhubel" <mhubel(at)nemon.com>
While I can see your point, to some degree I can understand. Some of us decided to build a plane once with no intention of ever doing it again. It was fun once. Then it was time to fly it. This "upgrade" is a very significant fraction of the original build time.
I had doubts myself. Had it not been for the two others who have offered to help do the modifications, my enthusiasm to do this would be very low.
--------
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
41 hr TAF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276087#27608= * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com= --> http://www.bsp; ======================== FREE Terrific Free The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/cDralle, List Features Un/Subscription, Photoshare, and href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ===========
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paulrod36(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject: I don't understand... |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Everybody grab your desktop and hold on tight!! I agree with Paul M. [img]cid:002601ca7537$4ca91180$51567225(at)emachine7af6b9[/img] After properly torqueing the bolt, if you still have doubts, a generous dab of Proseal at the head-to-spar points, and some more on the bolt threads, will hold that bolt's torque long after you and I (particularly I) are long gone. I think you could do the same thing with JB Weld. If it's tough enough to thread, it certainly would hold for the life of the plane. I would trust a steel AN bolt a lot more than my feeble attempt to properly set a large rivet, which, by the way, will laugh at a wussy 2X rivet gun.
Just talked to my A&P/IA who's done my planes for 30 years about the bolts. He's OK with them, therefore, so am I.
Paul R
standing in line to pickup
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ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:50 pm Post subject: I don't understand... |
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Hello Sabrina,
Reading your coment, yes you have a point.
I have a small dial torque wrench and take lots of care with AN-3 bolts, sure only use them once... Need retorque, trash them and use new ones...
Have a great vacation trip! Big diference in climate.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- On Fri, 12/4/09, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: I don't understand...
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 4:11 PM
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com (chicago2paris(at)msn.com)>
Hey Jim, doing just fine... I will be on my way to Miami for a cruise in two weeks time... :O)
Gary... torquing an AN3 bolt within its 5 in pound range is hard when you are retofitting a 1/8" angle to a couple 1/4" doublers. The tendancy is to overtorque because it feels like you are still bringing the materials into contact. Even worse, the nylo nut can give you a couple inch pounds of drag, depending upon the temperature. So too, I have not found a torque wrench yet that appears accurate to me at that low of a torque range. Even Aircraft Spruces' $200 dial type is only +/-2% accurate and that is NOT 2% of your value but 4% of its range. With wood, the wood should compress long before the AN3 will be damaged.
As Jim points out, it is an art to be learned.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p//www.matronics.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/bsp; -Matt Dralle, href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List" target=_blank href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target=_blank>http://forums.matron===================
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