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Lead plating (was EGTs are killing me)

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occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:59 am Post subject: Lead plating (was EGTs are killing me)

I have read this many times (mostly here and Rotax  list) and I'm not sure this isn't one of those oft retold myths. I understand  that lead compound deposits are bad in the combustion chamber, exactly where  Decalin is working to counteract it but is there any documentented photographic  evidence of this "plating" occurring in the bottom of a two stroke rotax and  actually causing a problem, or a failure? 

  

 Rotax doesn't mention bottom end troubles from it  that I can find and I can imagine a couple of small benefits. Colour me  skeptical on this one, but I'd love to see evidence of it. 

 [quote]   ---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Lead plating (was EGTs are killing me)

Simple solution is to use reg grade gas. 



Our 582s and 912 ul do not need over 87 octane. 



Some just wanna be one of the boys buying avgas at the airport ? 



No idea But I do operate from my own strip and I have supply her already.  In Summer I buy at marinas and I have bought at airports before from the maintenance guys  that use reg gas for lawnmowers, vehicles etc.   I have used AVgas a few times but it is like 30 % or more expensive as well.

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Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Lead plating (was EGTs are killing me)

You are way ahead of the game to get away from 100LL in a 2 stroke. Regular auto gas is much better. The lead over time is a killer. Yes it works, but you'll have more maint. issues later as you get more time on the engine. This question is always ask in Rotax maint. schools and Rotax would rather see auto gas, too.

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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Lead plating (was EGTs are killing me)

Thanks Roger. 

Hey what is your thoughts on NKG from Rotax verus the auto parts store plugs? 



I got 100 to 150 hours out of mine in 582s  with oil injection

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Lead plating (was EGTs are killing me)

 	  dave wrote: 	
		  Thanks Roger. 

Hey what is your thoughts on NKG from Rotax verus the auto parts store plugs? 



I got 100 to 150 hours out of mine in 582s  with oil injection 	




I get NGKs from the auto parts store.

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Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:41 am Post subject: Lead plating (was EGTs are killing me)

Dave,

  I  read an article, a while back, on a British Rotax 912 site that did show pictures of the lead accumulation all over the rods and inside the gearbox of a 912 as a result of using avgas.Unfortunately, I can't relocate that site. It was a terrific article on the care and feeding of the 912 written by a man named Conrad I believe. The pictures were great. It also had a great picture of damage to the valve spring area caused by a collapsed lifter as a result of air intrusion into the oil system. It hammered home to me the value of doing the lifter check as part of the purge if you have to break open the oil system.

                                           Dick Maddux

                                           Fox 4

                                           Rotax 912

                                           Milton,Fl

  [quote][b]

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:58 am Post subject: Re: Lead plating (was EGTs are killing me)

Hi Dave,



If the NGK numbers are the same then it's the same plug.  i.e. DCPR8E for a Rotax 912ULS is the same plug regardless if it comes from Rotax, a motorcycle shop, a marine shop or an auto parts store. For the longest time I was getting my NGK plugs from "Marine Discount" on the web. They used to be a lot cheaper. I usually by 32 plugs at a time.

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Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
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Cell 520-349-7056

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:02 am Post subject: Re: Lead plating (was EGTs are killing me)

Roger ,



I was referring to the on going debate of the NGK B8Es or BR8ES 



Rotax supplied are solid tipped and gapped .018



Auto parts one have alum tip Screw ons  plus they gapped at .03 to 035



The Solid tipped outlast  the Alum tipped ones by 4 to 6 times I find.

Dave

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:30 am Post subject: Re: Lead plating (was EGTs are killing me)

You can get solid tipped ones at auto parts stores or motor sports shops, I buy them all the time for my sleds and the plane.  Rotax does not have NGK make them special for them.  They are a stock NGK plug.  I buy them for 1.98 each and don't have any issues taking 10 seconds to gap the plug.  Go to any parts store and ask for NGK 3961.



How many times is this gonna get the crap kicked out of it?  few times a year on the average from what I have seen.  Some must suffer from memory loss... happens when you start getting older Dave

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Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:37 pm Post subject: Lead plating (was EGTs are killing me)

On Fri, December 11, 2009 4:38 am, Catz631(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Dave,

  I  read an article, a while back, on a British Rotax 912 site that did

 show pictures of the lead accumulation all over the rods and inside the gearbox

 of a 912 as a result of using avgas.Unfortunately, I can't relocate that

 site.


	


Perhaps this article?



<http://www.conairsports.co.uk/downloads/912%20maintenance%20article%20-%20inc%20carb%20bal.pdf>



Or as a TinyURL:



<http://preview.tinyurl.com/yda53ld>



Those are the first ever photos I've seen of any kind of deposits in the relatively

cooler bottom end. After 1000 hours, still not much there compared to the deposits on

the valves.



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA



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-- Thomas Jefferson



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leading American socialist, pacifist, and six-time presidential

candidate for the Socialist Party of America. The Socialist Party

candidate for President of the U.S., Norman Thomas, said this in a

1944 speech:



"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But,

under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of

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nation, without knowing how it happened!"



He went on to say: "I no longer need to run as a Presidential

Candidate for the Socialist Party. The Democrat Party has adopted

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Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:53 am Post subject: Lead plating (was EGTs are killing me)

Paul,

  That was the excellent article is was referring to

                                      Dick Maddux

                                      Fox 4

                                      912UL

                                      Milton,Fl

  [quote][b]

Rich L

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 63
Location: North Idaho

Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Lead plating (was EGTs are killing me)

Please tell me I dont need screw on caps on the dcpr8e plugs on a 912uls.  I have always just used the threads and they seem to fit tight.  I tried to get one of my plug wires on a plug with the cap on and it didnt fit!!!!!!!

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Lead plating (was EGTs are killing me)

Hi Rich,  

The 912 uses just the thread end and no cap for its plugs.

The DCPR8E plugs come with caps on, but you just unscrew them and bare the threads. There is a DCPR8E plug out there that the caps don't come off. A friend of mine accidentally bought some once at a motorcycle shop. I don't know exactly the difference on these plugs either, but I'm sure there is something different.



Hi Dave,



I would stick with what Rotax recommends. You can't go wrong there. There is a reason Rotax wanted that type of plug. I do not know exactly why, but I'm sure they didn't just pull it out of a hat. You can buy NGK's of the type you need at other locations other than Rotax. NGK made two different plugs for a reason and if they were the same then why didn't they just make the one? 





Just thinking out loud here:



Somethings Rotax are certainly more costly, but some items are costing only pennies for the number of hours people fly yet they skimp on a certain part. Kind of like not changing oil or plugs when your supposed to. The owners save pennies and then wonder down the line why something happened. Must have been Rotax's fault....



If you read about Rotax engine failures the largest majority by far is owner caused because some owners want to be experimenters and just don't see why Rotax would do something a certain way or think one item is interchangeable with another. If you want to do that sort of experimentation then I think it is ok, just take the consequences and don't point fingers or complain. If I know positively an item is identical I might use it, but if I'm not 110% sure I stick with the Rotax recommendation. 



I just try to keep all my clients in the air and not cause any dead sticks or (MIF'S) failures.



MIF: mecahnic induced failure



I'm sure everyone here has a personal view on this type of issue.

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Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Last edited by Roger Lee on Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:19 am; edited 1 time in total

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:15 am Post subject: Re: Lead plating (was EGTs are killing me)

Roger, 



Very well said. And heck I am not happy with some of the Rotax prices but I will say that Rotax parts do seem to perform well overall. 



The rebuilt cranks always come back for a new rotax crank,

the cheap plugs get swapped out every 10 to 20 hours -- the rest of us go 100 to 150 hours. 

See how long a sno mo 40 $ piston last running at 6000  rpm  but the Rotax ones cost 240 $ but seem to make it.



etc etc etc

same as oils,  I have just under 10 regulars at my strip with  Rotax 2 strokes and in 10,000 hours of flying in last 10 years no one uses pennzoil or synthetics but we all use castrol super 2 stroke, Bombardier oil or Shell Advance.  We all use Regular grade gas- with (ethanol in the last 3 years) And I am happy to say that no Forced approaches from engine  failures have happened with us.  We have had 2 prop failures only and now most guys use safety cables.



btw - Nothing wrong with pennzoil it just not readily availble to us .



Dave

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