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don(at)numa.aero
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 Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:10 am Post subject: Vertical Power? |
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I'm going to be running a 24v system on a Velocity. All the supplied trim motors are designed for a 12v electrical system. I looked but have been unable to find equivalent motors for my 24v system. So I started looking at voltage converters such as:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lonestar24to12.php
Then I saw Vertical Power at Sun-n-Fun. Not only do their systems have a number of 12v pick-offs but they completely eliminate traditional circuit breakers.
http://www.verticalpower.com/VP100.html
One of my electrical "advisors" is wary of such new-fangled gizmos. He feels that traditional CB's and fuses are easier to troubleshoot.
Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to resolve my 24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" (their claim, not mine).
Don Johnston
Velocity-XL/RG
[quote][b]
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:54 am Post subject: Vertical Power? |
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Good Morning Don,
Here I go again commenting in an area of which I have no knowledge, but what would happen if you used two batteries to get your twenty-four volts then tapped a twelve volt buss off at the center connection between the two batteries?
As to the Vertical Power concept, once again, no knowledge, but I would lean toward more conventional wiring devices.
Of course, if everyone felt like I do we would still be driving Model "T" Fords and cranking our telephones. <G>
Happy Skies
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 12/12/2009 9:11:04 A.M. Central Standard Time, don(at)numa.aero writes:
| Quote: |
I'm going to be running a 24v system on a Velocity. All the supplied trim motors are designed for a 12v electrical system. I looked but have been unable to find equivalent motors for my 24v system. So I started looking at voltage converters such as:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lonestar24to12.php
Then I saw Vertical Power at Sun-n-Fun. Not only do their systems have a number of 12v pick-offs but they completely eliminate traditional circuit breakers.
http://www.verticalpower.com/VP100.html
One of my electrical "advisors" is wary of such new-fangled gizmos. He feels that traditional CB's and fuses are easier to troubleshoot.
Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to resolve my 24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" (their claim, not mine).
Don Johnston
Velocity-XL/RG
|
[quote][b]
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deej(at)deej.net
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:18 am Post subject: Vertical Power? |
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On 12/12/2009 9:40 AM, Don Johnston wrote:
| Quote: | Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to resolve
my 24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" (their claim,
not mine).
|
You may also look at the Approach Fast Stack product to assist with
easier wiring <http://approachfaststack.com/>. Combined with the
Vertical Power system, the panel wiring should only take a fraction of
the time it would take using traditional CBs/fuses.
So far I have not heard anything negative from people using Vertical
Power, just good comments. It is what I hope to use when I get to that
part of my project.
My half cents, FWIW,
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/
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Matt Dralle
Site Admin
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 25203
Location: Livermore CA USA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:36 am Post subject: Vertical Power? |
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At 06:40 AM 12/12/2009 Saturday, you wrote:
| Quote: | I'm going to be running a 24v system on a Velocity. All the supplied trim motors are designed for a 12v electrical system. I looked but have been unable to find equivalent motors for my 24v system. So I started looking at voltage converters such as:
<http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lonestar24to12.php>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lonestar24to12.php
Then I saw Vertical Power at Sun-n-Fun. Not only do their systems have a number of 12v pick-offs but they completely eliminate traditional circuit breakers.
<http://www.verticalpower.com/VP100.html>http://www.verticalpower.com/VP100.html
One of my electrical "advisors" is wary of such new-fangled gizmos. He feels that traditional CB's and fuses are easier to troubleshoot.
Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to resolve my 24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" (their claim, not mine).
Don Johnston
Velocity-XL/RG
|
Hi Don,
I can't speak to the 24v vs. 12v issue and whether the Vertical Power solution would be the right answer or not. However, I can say that I have been extremely pleased by the functionality and ease of installation of the Vertical Power VP-200 system in my RV-8. The system is top notch all the way through, and the customer support from Vertical Power and Marc Ausman had been superb.
If you are at a point in your project where you can choose to install a Vertical Power system over traditional breakers and switches - DO IT.
I've attached a few pictures of my installation. The big red box is the Control Unit and you can get those harnesses pre-made from VP. They just plug into the red box and you run the wire to the given device. Its just that simple.
My Rating: 5/5
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV
http://www.mattsrv8.com
Final Assembly
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Allen Fulmer
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Alexander City, AL
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:50 am Post subject: Vertical Power? |
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I was too far along when Vertical Power came out but I have the Approach
Fast Stack Pro and it has been a big help. Tim Hass at Approach has been a
big help whenever needed. And I got my stuff from him over two years ago.
What wiring I have done (all the switches, cbs, fuses, terminal strips,
etc.) has been tedious and probably much simplified with Vertical Power
product.
Been at the wiring for 16 months or so but closing in on being finished.
I'm kind of slow.
Allen Fulmer
RV7 Finishing wiring
N808AF reserved
--
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RV7 QB Fuselage
Eggenfellner H6 on orde
N808AF reserved
Alexander City, AL |
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MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:37 am Post subject: Vertical Power? |
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I'd second the recommendation of the Approach Fast Stack for DIY panel
builders. I haven't flown it yet but it enabled me to build my own 3
GRT panel with all the bells and whistles and it all works. Essentially
got a completely custom and documented wiring harness with lot's of
panel design skills behind it.
Can't comment on Vertical.
Bill Watson
RV10
Dj Merrill wrote:
| Quote: |
On 12/12/2009 9:40 AM, Don Johnston wrote:
> Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to resolve
> my 24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" (their claim,
> not mine).
>
You may also look at the Approach Fast Stack product to assist with
easier wiring <http://approachfaststack.com/>. Combined with the
Vertical Power system, the panel wiring should only take a fraction of
the time it would take using traditional CBs/fuses.
So far I have not heard anything negative from people using Vertical
Power, just good comments. It is what I hope to use when I get to that
part of my project.
My half cents, FWIW,
-Dj
|
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:58 pm Post subject: Vertical Power? |
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At 09:19 AM 12/12/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | Good Morning Don,
Here I go again commenting in an area of which I have no knowledge, but what would happen if you used two batteries to get your twenty-four volts then tapped a twelve volt buss off at the center connection between the two batteries? |
You reduce the life of both batteries to a small
fraction of their normal lives.
| Quote: |
As to the Vertical Power concept, once again, no knowledge, but I would lean toward more conventional wiring devices.
|
Depends on design goals. Enhanced power distribution products
with any sort of successful market experience pretty much
deliver on their stated performance and features. This includes
virtually all such systems with few exceptions.
| Quote: |
Of course, if everyone felt like I do we would still be driving Model "T" Fords and cranking our telephones. <G> |
Not sure this is true. When we upgraded Model T systems, operational
capabilities, costs, and reliability all improved through year-to-year
advancements in technology. Increases in acquisition costs
increased incrementally at worst . . . but for the most part
went DOWN as volume production techniques kept up with increasing
demand.
But if a builder's design goals include exploitation of features
unique to the integrated power distribution product -AND-
he/she's willing to carry the added costs, then by all means.
However, I'll suggest that upgrading to a super-capable,
integrated power distribution system just to get a 12v source
for some trim actuators may not yield a great return on
investment . . .
| Quote: | | I'm going to be running a 24v system on a Velocity. All the supplied trim motors are designed for a 12v electrical system. I looked but have been unable to find equivalent motors for my 24v system. So I started looking at voltage converters such as: |
This may be a huge overkill. What are the current
requirements for your 12 trim motors? Are these
Ray-Allen linear actuators? These take VERY little
power to operate. Replacing a potentiometer with a
fixed resistor can turn something like a 1/2A
variable dimmer . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/dim5-14.jpg
into a fixed, 12 volt output power source. If your
trim motors are a bit bigger, then perhaps this
approach is called for . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/dim15-14.jpg
Given the very intermittent power requirements
for trim motors, the down-regulator doesn't need
to be big or expensive. Tell us what your power
needs are . . .
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================
[quote][b]
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bbradburry(at)bellsouth.n
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:48 pm Post subject: Vertical Power? |
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Anybody interested in the Approach Fast Stack can get a deal. I have the
Pro-G Hub (for Garmin stuff) and several cables that I have for sale.
Contact me off line if interested.
Bill B
--
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:36 pm Post subject: Vertical Power? |
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Good Evening 'Lectric Bob,
Like I said, It's an area in which I have no knowledge, but thanks to you and this list, I am learning.
Slowly maybe, but still learning! <G>
Anybody have any ideas as to what the failure mode would be on the Vertical Power unit? Is there a likely single failure mode that could take out all electrical devices?
How does the total weight compare to legacy stuff?
Lots of interesting possibilities out there. But I still know how to crank that ringer!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 12/12/2009 2:59:21 P.M. Central Standard Time, nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes:
| Quote: | At 09:19 AM 12/12/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | Good Morning Don,
Here I go again commenting in an area of which I have no knowledge, but what would happen if you used two batteries to get your twenty-four volts then tapped a twelve volt buss off at the center connection between the two batteries? |
You reduce the life of both batteries to a small
fraction of their normal lives.
| Quote: |
As to the Vertical Power concept, once again, no knowledge, but I would lean toward more conventional wiring devices.
|
Depends on design goals. Enhanced power distribution products
with any sort of successful market experience pretty much
deliver on their stated performance and features. This includes
virtually all such systems with few exceptions.
| Quote: |
Of course, if everyone felt like I do we would still be driving Model "T" Fords and cranking our telephones. <G> |
Not sure this is true. When we upgraded Model T systems, operational
capabilities, costs, and reliability all improved through year-to-year
advancements in technology. Increases in acquisition costs
increased incrementally at worst . . . but for the most part
went DOWN as volume production techniques kept up with increasing
demand.
But if a builder's design goals include exploitation of features
unique to the integrated power distribution product -AND-
he/she's willing to carry the added costs, then by all means.
However, I'll suggest that upgrading to a super-capable,
integrated power distribution system just to get a 12v source
for some trim actuators may not yield a great return on
investment . . .
| Quote: | | I'm going to be running a 24v system on a Velocity. All the supplied trim motors are designed for a 12v electrical system. I looked but have been unable to find equivalent motors for my 24v system. So I started looking at voltage converters such as: |
This may be a huge overkill. What are the current
requirements for your 12 trim motors? Are these
Ray-Allen linear actuators? These take VERY little
power to operate. Replacing a potentiometer with a
fixed resistor can turn something like a 1/2A
variable dimmer . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/dim5-14.jpg
into a fixed, 12 volt output power source. If your
trim motors are a bit bigger, then perhaps this
approach is called for . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/dim15-14.jpg
Given the very intermittent power requirements
for trim motors, the down-regulator doesn't need
to be big or expensive. Tell us what your power
needs are . . .
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================
|
[quote][b]
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rleffler
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:36 pm Post subject: Vertical Power? |
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Anybody have any ideas as to what the failure mode would be on the Vertical Power unit? Is there a likely single failure mode that could take out all electrical devices?
The short answer is yes to both questions. The unit does have an essential buss that can power circuits independent of the CU. Also, when the CU fails, it is suppose to fail in whatever state they were in at failure time. i.e. on stays on and off stays off. You can also wire manual switches for emergency access to connect devices to the essential buss. For those that are truly anal, you can install two CUs for redundancy.
How does the total weight compare to legacy stuff?
Depends, the VP-50 is probably lighter. I’m sure the VP-200 is heavier.
Mark reads this list, so I’m sure he’ll provide his two cents worth then. My experience with Mark and the team at Vertical Power is that they are more than happy to discuss any potential failure scenarios and how they can be overcome with their gear. They are very accessible and eager to assist whenever they can.
I’m putting in a VP-200 in my RV-10.
bob
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 8:33 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Vertical Power?
Good Evening 'Lectric Bob,
Like I said, It's an area in which I have no knowledge, but thanks to you and this list, I am learning.
Slowly maybe, but still learning! <G>
Anybody have any ideas as to what the failure mode would be on the Vertical Power unit? Is there a likely single failure mode that could take out all electrical devices?
How does the total weight compare to legacy stuff?
Lots of interesting possibilities out there. But I still know how to crank that ringer!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
[quote][b]
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Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler |
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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:41 pm Post subject: Vertical Power? |
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-------------------snip-----------------------------------
| Quote: |
You reduce the life of both batteries to a small
fraction of their normal lives.
------------------snip-----------------------------------
|
I was not aware of this effect. Can someone educate me or direct me to a
resource so I can educate myself?
Thanks,
Ray
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:16 pm Post subject: Vertical Power? |
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Good Evening Ray,
Since I used the center tap method on a boat I owned many years ago, I would be very interested as well. Never noted any problem on my sailboat batteries.<G>
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/12/2009 8:42:20 P.M. Central Standard Time, raymondj(at)frontiernet.net writes:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: ray <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
-------------------snip-----------------------------------
| Quote: |
You reduce the life of both batteries to a small
fraction of their normal lives.
------------------snip-----------------------------------
|
I was not aware of this effect. Can someone educate me or direct me to a
resource so I can educate ================================================nbsp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE to find Gifts tric re b k you for p; -Matt Dralle, List ======================== = Use utilities Day ================================================ - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ==================================================
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[quote][b]
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n395v
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Vertical Power? |
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| Quote: | Since I used the center tap method on a boat I owned many years ago, I would be very interested as well. Never noted any problem on my sailboat batteries.<G>
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
|
It largely has to do with your charging device.
When you tap off the center of (2) 14V batteries in series one will discharge more than the other.. Your alternator will put 28 V across both batteries overcharging one and undercharging the other which will shorten the life of both batteries.
A battery equalizer ........................
http://www.vanner.com/client/images/manual_Battery_Equalizer.pdf
will solve the problem.
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donjohnston
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Vertical Power? |
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[quote="Matt Dralle"]At 06:40 AM 12/12/2009 Saturday, you wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi Don,
I can't speak to the 24v vs. 12v issue and whether the Vertical Power solution would be the right answer or not. However, I can say that I have been extremely pleased by the functionality and ease of installation of the Vertical Power VP-200 system in my RV-8. The system is top notch all the way through, and the customer support from Vertical Power and Marc Ausman had been superb.
If you are at a point in your project where you can choose to install a Vertical Power system over traditional breakers and switches - DO IT.
I've attached a few pictures of my installation. The big red box is the Control Unit and you can get those harnesses pre-made from VP. They just plug into the red box and you run the wire to the given device. Its just that simple.
My Rating: 5/5
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV
http://www.mattsrv8.com
Final Assembly |
Matt,
Thanks (to everyone) for responding.
I'm already planning on the the Approach Stack solution.
And since I'm going with a two screen GRT panel, the VP-200 seemed like overkill so I was alternating between the VP-50 and VP-100.
Don Johnston
www.velocity-xl.com
Barrington, IL
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dfritzj(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:16 am Post subject: Vertical Power? |
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I'm planning a center-tap system to supply intermittent 12V loads such as a trim motor and hydraulic pump for raising my gear on my Velocity. Due to the high load imposed by the hydraulic pump, using a voltage converter was prohibitively expensive (I looked at swapping out the hydraulic pump for a 24V model, but the control electronics are all set up for 12V as well). My understanding is that by using a reasonably inexpensive battery equalizer, the negative effects of center-tapping can be mitigated. Because the hydraulic pump only operates twice per flight, I can get away with a reasonably low amperage equalizer (I think I got 2 or 5 amp capacity). Any thoughts on these equalizers out there?
Dan
[quote][b]
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Matt Dralle
Site Admin
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 25203
Location: Livermore CA USA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject: Vertical Power? |
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At 10:13 AM 12/13/2009 Sunday, you wrote:
| Quote: |
[quote="Matt Dralle"]At 06:40 AM 12/12/2009 Saturday, you wrote:
>
>
> Hi Don,
>
> I can't speak to the 24v vs. 12v issue and whether the Vertical Power solution would be the right answer or not. However, I can say that I have been extremely pleased by the functionality and ease of installation of the Vertical Power VP-200 system in my RV-8. The system is top notch all the way through, and the customer support from Vertical Power and Marc Ausman had been superb.
>
> If you are at a point in your project where you can choose to install a Vertical Power system over traditional breakers and switches - DO IT.
>
> I've attached a few pictures of my installation. The big red box is the Control Unit and you can get those harnesses pre-made from VP. They just plug into the red box and you run the wire to the given device. Its just that simple.
>
> My Rating: 5/5
>
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> Matt Dralle
> RV-8 #82880 N998RV
> http://www.mattsrv8.com
> Final Assembly
Matt,
Thanks (to everyone) for responding.
I'm already planning on the the Approach Stack solution.
And since I'm going with a two screen GRT panel, the VP-200 seemed like overkill so I was alternating between the VP-50 and VP-100.
Don Johnston
www.velocity-xl.com
Barrington, IL
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Rethink the over-kill, Don! I've got three GRT HX screens and the VP-200... See attached.
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV
http://www.mattsrv8.com
Final Assembly
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:23 pm Post subject: Vertical Power? |
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| Quote: | It largely has to do with your charging device.
When you tap off the center of (2) 14V batteries in series one will
discharge more than the other.. Your alternator will put 28 V across
both batteries overcharging one and undercharging the other which
will shorten the life of both batteries.
A battery equalizer ........................
http://www.vanner.com/client/images/manual_Battery_Equalizer.pdf
will solve the problem.
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I'd not encountered this style of "equalizer" before . . .
A study of it's ratings suggests that the device contains
a switchmode power supply designed for charging 12v
batteries from a 28v source.
Obviously, if you want to totally isolate your top
battery from the effects of overcharge . . . and
the bottom from the effects of unbalanced discharge
with respect to the top, then the power supply needs
to be rated for as much or more current than you
expect to demand from the 12v tap on the battery.
This makes the "equalizer" into a 28/14v "down
converter". If you take a small device capable of
delivering say 10A, then you can expect the two batteries
to experience pretty equal treatment up to and including
10A loads on the battery tap.
If you hit the tap with a hydraulic pump load or other
load exceeding the rating of the equalizer, then the
equalizer will deliver rated current with the lower
battery making up the difference. Under these conditions,
the lower battery voltage sags, the upper battery gets
some quantity of "super-charge" and the lower battery
makes up the difference between equalizer rating and
system loads.
When the load goes away, the equalizer will "recharge"
the lower battery but it cannot do anything about the
super-charge on the upper battery. The IDEAL equalizer
installation calls for carrying ALL expected 14v system
loads to prevent super-charging the upper battery.
A similar capability can be crafted by installing
two alternators. A 28v alternator attached to the
top of the battery string, a 14v alternator attached
to the tap half way down on the string.
In terms of economics and quest for an elegant
solution, this is NOT a simple choice to figure
out. The number of variables is huge and a large
component of the decision hinges on the builder's
acceptance of complexity, weight increase, less-
predictable battery life and increased cost of
ownership for making sure that what USED to be
the most reliable source of power on the airplane
is still the most reliable.
Bob . . .
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donjohnston
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Vertical Power? |
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| Quote: | Rethink the over-kill, Don! I've got three GRT HX screens and the VP-200... See attached.
Matt Dralle |
Matt,
All I can say is... just damn! 
But I'm thinking about it from the perspective of I'll be using one of the GRT screens for engine monitoring. So the real estate of the VP-200 and many of the features (access-code, remote control, etc.) just didn't appeal to me.
Nice panel though.
-Don
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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:49 pm Post subject: Vertical Power? |
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Matt Dralle a écrit :
| Quote: |
Rethink the over-kill, Don! I've got three GRT HX screens and the VP-200... See attached.
Matt,
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Awesome indeed.
I took the liberty of forwarding your picture to a group of pilots
buddies and got lots of questions in return.
Would you mind giving more details about your setup ?
Thanks,
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
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Matt Dralle
Site Admin
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 25203
Location: Livermore CA USA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:57 am Post subject: Vertical Power? |
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At 03:42 PM 12/13/2009 Sunday, you wrote:
| Quote: |
Matt Dralle a écrit :
>
>Rethink the over-kill, Don! I've got three GRT HX screens and the VP-200... See attached.
>
>
Matt,
Awesome indeed.
I took the liberty of forwarding your picture to a group of pilots buddies and got lots of questions in return.
Would you mind giving more details about your setup ?
Thanks,
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
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Thanks!
Here is a link to my builder's log, specifically regarding the avionics installation. Lots of pictures and dialog describing the system. Let me know if you have any questions.
http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/category.php?user=MattsRV8&project=638&category 971
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV
http://www.mattsrv8.com
Final Assembly
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