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AG5B wiring question

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GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:28 pm Post subject: AG5B wiring question

I've got a 92 AG5B in my hangar for a new engine.  While at it, I decided to clean up the wiring.  I hate sloppy wiring.  This is one of those AGs with the grounds on the vacuum filter.  Go figure that one.  In the past, I've moved those grounds to the engine mount (the lug on the back).  I've done that to about 6 planes so far.  Never had a problem.   

 

  While at the FWF restoration, I decided to change the battery & starter relays.  Funny thing is, I can't get the relays to work.  Rather than installing them the way they came from the factory, I mounted them with the cap down as shown in the 'preferred mounting' diagram that came with the relays.  Other than that, and the positive not going to big terminal marked "BAT" on the battery relay (the diagram doesn't show that it matters, just need to use the big terminal,) everything is connected the way it came off the old relays.

  

 

  Here is the setup:  

  (1) No engine or engine mount.  

  (2) Ground wire attached to the upper right (airframe) engine mount with an engine mount bolt. 

       - then attached to the neg side of the battery.  

  (3) Power cable (positive) from battery to battery relay.

  (4) Only 5 (or so) volts measured at the other engine mounts.

  (5) Connected a separate ground to the bundle of grounds that went to the vacuum pump and now I get 24 (or so) volts at the other engine mounts.  It's almost as though the grounds in the cabin depend on the ground to the vacuum filter.  

  (6) Still no action on the master (battery) relay.

  (7) Ran a jumper from the negative side of the battery to the relay contact and the relay energizes . . .  except . . .  there is only 5 volts on the output side of the relay.  

  

 

  I gave up for tonight.

  

 

  I could really use a wiring diagram for this plane.  So far, the current flow logic isn't making sense.  Anyone know what the cannon plug code is?  Back in the old days, I could read the number on the wire and look it up.  All of these wires are covered with expando sleeve.  

  

 

  Help.  Anyone.

   [quote][b]

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Gary
AuCountry Aviation
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GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:06 pm Post subject: AG5B wiring question

I must be the only one on this list. 

 

  OK, so, I'll entertain myself.  . . . . now  . . .  .  where's the lube? 

  

 

  So, last night, while watching tv, I got to wondering if there might be a right or wrong way to hook up the power and ground to the relay contacts which energize the relay.  You know, like when you made an electro magnet out of a nail and wire?  Does it matter which way the current flows to make North and South . . .  that sort of thing.  So, today, I changed the power and ground sources and the relay energized just fine.  I have 27 volts everywhere except on the output big terminal on the relay.  Hence, no voltage to the system buss.  The output measures in the neighborhood of 3 to 5 volts.  so . . . . .  tomorrow, I'll mount the relays as they were, upside down compared the the preferred mounting diagram that came with the relay, and see what happens.  

  

 

  Last Friday, I got the engine mount back from the powder coater (and no, Virginia, powder coating will not hide a crack.  that is an old wives tail.  American Champion has been powder coating their entire steel tube fuselages for 20 years.)  I'll finish detailing the engine mounts on the fuselage and install the engine mount.  

 

 

  Then, finish the wiring of all the grounds to the engine mount.  Then see what happens.  Assuming, of course, that the relay still doesn't work once I mount it right side up.   I may have Garner send another one just for giggles.

  

 

  Then, once the wiring is all hooked up, install Larry's 210 hp O360.

  

 

  --

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Gary
AuCountry Aviation
Home of Team Grumman

GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:11 pm Post subject: AG5B wiring question

Too bad Barry isn't on this list.  He'd know.

 

 

           I must be the only one on this list.  

  

    OK, so, I'll entertain myself.  . . . . now  . . .  .  where's the lube? 

    

  

    So, last night, while watching tv, I got to wondering if there might be a right or wrong way to hook up the power and ground to the relay contacts which energize the relay.  You know, like when you made an electro magnet out of a nail and wire?  Does it matter which way the current flows to make North and South . . .  that sort of thing.  So, today, I changed the power and ground sources and the relay energized just fine.  I have 27 volts everywhere except on the output big terminal on the relay.  Hence, no voltage to the system buss.  The output measures in the neighborhood of 3 to 5 volts.  so . . . . .  tomorrow, I'll mount the relays as they were, upside down compared the the preferred mounting diagram that came with the relay, and see what happens.  

    

  

    Last Friday, I got the engine mount back from the powder coater (and no, Virginia, powder coating will not hide a crack.  that is an old wives tail.  American Champion has been powder coating their entire steel tube fuselages for 20 years.)  I'll finish detailing the engine mounts on the fuselage and install the engine mount.  

  

  

    Then, finish the wiring of all the grounds to the engine mount.  Then see what happens.  Assuming, of course, that the relay still doesn't work once I mount it right side up.   I may have Garner send another one just for giggles.

    

  

    Then, once the wiring is all hooked up, install Larry's 210 hp O360.

    

  

    --

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Gary
AuCountry Aviation
Home of Team Grumman

lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:43 am Post subject: AG5B wiring question

It makes sense that the relay should only energize based on polarity of the

inputs.  Simple coil, EMF, right hand rule, ete etc etc.  What I 

don't understand is

how the documentation would recommend a configuration that doesn't work???

 > So, last night, while watching tv, I got to wondering if there might be a

 > right or wrong way to hook up the power and ground to the relay contacts

 > which energize the relay.  You know, like when you made an electro magnet

 > out of a nail and wire?  Does it matter which way the current flows to make

 > North and South . . .  that sort of thing.  So, today, I changed the power

 > and ground sources and the relay energized just fine.  I have 27 volts

 > everywhere except on the output big terminal on the relay.  Hence, 

no voltage

 > to the system buss.  The output measures in the neighborhood of 3 to

 > 5 volts.  so . . . . .  tomorrow, I'll mount the relays as they were, upside

 > down compared the the preferred mounting diagram that came with the

 > relay, and see what happens.

az_gila

Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 99
Location: Tucson, AZ

Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:52 am Post subject: AG5B wiring question

 	  Quote: 	
		  I could really use a wiring diagram for this plane.  So far, the current flow logic isn't making sense.  Anyone know what the cannon plug code is?  Back in the old days, I could read the number on the wire and look it up.  All of these wires are covered with expando sleeve.  



 Help.  Anyone.

 	




 Gary, what is the part number for the 24 v master relay you used?    gil A    [quote][b]

GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:03 am Post subject: AG5B wiring question

something with a dash 903 on the end.  

 

 

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Gary
AuCountry Aviation
Home of Team Grumman

az_gila

Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 99
Location: Tucson, AZ

Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:12 pm Post subject: AG5B wiring question

Need more numbers to get a data sheet....:^)   gil A



 At 11:35 AM 12/16/2009, you wrote:

 [quote] something with a dash 903 on the end.  



 

 --

GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:03 am Post subject: AG5B wiring question

it's a white-rogers 70-903

 

 

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Gary
AuCountry Aviation
Home of Team Grumman

az_gila

Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 99
Location: Tucson, AZ

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:23 am Post subject: AG5B wiring question

Gary... the relay is fully isolated, and has no installed diodes.



 It is not polarized, so hooking up plus and minus 24v on the two smaller terminals can be done in either direction.



 The coil resistance is 60 ohms, which you could use as a check on your wiring.



 Unlike some of the other relays, there is no connection from the relay coil to the large relay contacts.



 As far as I can tell from the data sheet, the case (ground when installed) is isolated from all of the internal workings.



  http://www.stancor.com/wrdstc/pdfs/pg87_90.pdf



 gil A



 



 At 10:02 AM 12/17/2009, you wrote:

 [quote]it's a white-rogers 70-903



 

 --

GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:49 pm Post subject: AG5B wiring question

Thanks Gil, 

 

  I think the problem on the AG5B has more to do with grounds.  I've been able to jump across from a battery and get the relay to energize, it just doesn't pass the voltage to the other side.  I'm going to try another one.  I was able to get 27 volts to the buss line, but, nothing came on inside the plane.  I think the myriad of ground wires on the outside need to be connected to get the power to come on inside.  AGs are strange birds.  Sucks to have a special ground to turn power on.  I'm so used to putting power onto the buss and having everything come on.  Not a big deal.  I'll sort this out too.

  

 

  Gary

 

 

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Gary
AuCountry Aviation
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