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Dennis Johnson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 89
Location: N. Calif.
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 Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: Follow Up to Power Opti-Miser |
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Bob, thanks so much for replying to my post about my experience with low power factor appliances. I see that I need to study some more so I can understand this better. I've stubbed my toe on power factor questions before, so I'm not surprised. You've asked good questions that I'll address after I study up!
Thanks,
Dennis
Time: 06:10:15 PM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
Subject: Re: Re: Power Opti-Miser
At 11:30 AM 12/14/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | My house is not connected to the power grid, which makes me both a
power generator and a power consumer. If we look at this issue from
that perspective, things change.
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<snip>
| Quote: | My conclusion is that both sides of this camp might be at least
partially correct. Since residential power meters measure real
watts, the residential consumer isn't penalized for the extra power
the utility has to generate to run bad power factor appliances.
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| Quote: | However, the utility has to generate the extra electricity, even
though they aren't getting paid for it (which is already built into
the rate structure).
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The utility doesn't have to generate any extra watts. It only has
to choose wire sizes that carry an artificially high current that
doesn't participate in the running of devices with poor p.f.
> But if consumers could do something to improve the power factor
| Quote: | of their appliances, it would reduce the amount of electricity
produced, reducing the unfavorable environmental consequences of
making electricity. That would be good for everyone (assuming the
environmental effects of making the correction devices resulted in
a net gain, of course).
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The "goodness" comes only from the fact that the same work
can be done over smaller wires with less heating of the
wires. A significant savings when your transmission lines
are measured in miles instead of feet and transformers are
in 100's of KVAR instead of 2 KVAR.
| Quote: |
I have no opinion as to whether the devices under discussion
actually reduce apparent watts. It may well be that the most recent
appliances include better internal power factor correction. I know
that the last batch of compact fluorescent bulbs I bought seem to
have very good power factor.
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Yes. And the folks who do switchmode power supplies
for computers and other electronics have been prodded
by dozens of articles for how p.f. can be improved for
over 20 years.
See chapter 11 in Volume 2 of the basic electronics
document below . . .
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/index.html
If your AC power generation devices are pseudo sine
wave (finely stepped square wave) then the output
power has more harmonic content than the stuff
coming out of the wall. This puts a whole new
twist on the problem of optimizing power factor.
Have you measured the aggregate power factor for
household loads on your system? It may well be that
the losses are so small that doing anything about
them is economically impractical. When talking about
small losses, keep in mind that your house wiring
is not zero ohms material. Depending on how long
the runs are, you may find that copper losses
are already significant and only slightly aggravated
by the effects of p.f.
Lord Kelvin reminded us often that without access
to the real numbers, our knowledge is of a meager
kind.
Your situation cries out for a long term study
of aggregate quality for your total household load.
A true RMS voltmeter, ammeter and power-factor meter
recording to a hard drive over a long period of time
would give you a basis for doing more detailed
studies followed up by useful changes to your
hardware.
[quote][b]
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: Follow Up to Power Opti-Miser |
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At 07:56 PM 12/17/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | Bob, thanks so much for replying to my post about my experience with
low power factor appliances. I see that I need to study some more
so I can understand this better. I've stubbed my toe on power
factor questions before, so I'm not surprised. You've asked good
questions that I'll address after I study up!
|
My pleasure sir. I'd like to know more about
your homepower experiences. At the least, an
off-list conversation would be welcome . . .
but I'm pretty certain that out of 1800
subscribers, there's a significant interest
in the practice and technology.
Shucks, some of the folks might have remote
hangars they'd like to "power up". What ever
you're comfortable with is fine with me.
Bob . . .
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icrashrc
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Mishawaka, In
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| Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:41 am Post subject: Re: Follow Up to Power Opti-Miser |
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| nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: | At 07:56 PM 12/17/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | Bob, thanks so much for replying to my post about my experience with
low power factor appliances. I see that I need to study some more
so I can understand this better. I've stubbed my toe on power
factor questions before, so I'm not surprised. You've asked good
questions that I'll address after I study up!
|
My pleasure sir. I'd like to know more about
your homepower experiences. At the least, an
off-list conversation would be welcome . . .
but I'm pretty certain that out of 1800
subscribers, there's a significant interest
in the practice and technology.
Shucks, some of the folks might have remote
hangars they'd like to "power up". What ever
you're comfortable with is fine with me.
Bob . . . |
I vote for a public discussion so we all can learn a little.
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_________________
Scott
www.ill-EagleAviation.com
do not archive |
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riggs_la(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:21 am Post subject: Follow Up to Power Opti-Miser |
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I will second that vote.
Lynn A. Riggs
BH 656 Kit 22
--
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mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:21 am Post subject: Follow Up to Power Opti-Miser |
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| Quote: |
My pleasure sir. I'd like to know more about
your homepower experiences. At the least, an
off-list conversation would be welcome . . .
but I'm pretty certain that out of 1800
subscribers, there's a significant interest
in the practice and technology.
Shucks, some of the folks might have remote
hangars they'd like to "power up". What ever
you're comfortable with is fine with me.
Bob . . .
|
I vote for a public discussion so we all can learn a little.
--------
Scott
I second that request!
Roger
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