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jratcli256(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:20 am Post subject: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 |
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Hi Fellow Kolbers,
I'm new to the list. Received my kit about a month ago.
Have followed the list for a couple of weeks now and picked up on a reference to the high sink rate of the Kolbs.
I'm a low time pilot currently flying Cessna 172's and the Cherokee 180. Can power off land a 172 but require some power in the 180 due to the higher sink rate of this aircraft.
My current understanding is that light aircraft would have a lower sink rate.
Can some of you clarify this for me.
Happy flying,
John Ratcliffe
jratcli256(at)aol.com
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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:08 am Post subject: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 |
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As a pilot transitioning to the Mark III, too, I can tell you why. Boatloads
of drag from all the stuff hanging about in the breeze and a propeller disk
that adds a second boatload. My advice, fly it like a 182 and carry power
all the way to the deck.
On 4/11/06, jratcli256(at)aol.com <jratcli256(at)aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi Fellow Kolbers,
I'm new to the list. Received my kit about a month ago.
Have followed the list for a couple of weeks now and picked up on a
reference to the high sink rate of the Kolbs.
I'm a low time pilot currently flying Cessna 172's and the Cherokee 180.
Can power off land a 172 but require some power in the 180 due to the higher
sink rate of this aircraft.
My current understanding is that light aircraft would have a lower sink
rate.
Can some of you clarify this for me.
Happy flying,
John Ratcliffe
jratcli256(at)aol.com
|
--
Rick Girard
"Pining for a home on the Range"
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 |
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| Can some of you clarify this for me.
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| Happy flying,
| John Ratcliffe
High drag = high sink rate.
Actually, it is a normal sink rate for a Kolb, for some of us that
have been flying them for a while. What is normal for us is abnormal
for "real" airplane pilots.
Take care,
john h
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:07 pm Post subject: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 |
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I also came from general aviation and wasn't prepared for the high sink rate
of my MKIII. I bent my landing gear because of it. There is noting wrong
with the way our Kolbs fly it's just not what you are used to. Like you have
already been told keep the power up till you are a few inches above the
ground. After you get very used to the flight chrematistics start landing
with less and less power. Do not just decide to suddenly chop the power and
drop all the flaps. Much later when you have lots of experience in your Kolb
move into this mode. It is VERY impressive what can be done. Get someone
like John Hauck demo this for you some time. Wow its a real kick, but the
first time it will scare the shit out of you.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
---
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 |
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Sink rate in Kolbs is not all that bad. Dead stick, about 500 fpm. On a
thermal-ly day, you can soar. Difference is that you have more drag, and
less weight, which means less inertia. Especially in the flare, where
drag goes up in any event.
And in a Kolb you usually have an engine with a geared prop, which means
when you pull it back to idle at flare, the prop turns into a air brake.
Which all added up, means that if you try and land it like a Cessna, and
flare and chop the power at a Cessna-typical landing position, you will
sit there and watch your airspeed indicator sweep rapidly
counterclockwise as the airplane quickly decelerates and falls out of
the flare. And bends the gear. And all of this is totally normal for
airplanes with high drag and an empty weight of less than 600 pounds.
Not just Kolbs.
Carry a little power until just before touch down. Just enough to give a
tad more than zero thrust. Until JUST BEFORE touchdown. As in 18" or
less. And you will do fine, because the touch of power will make it
feel/act like what you are used to. Then work on landing it without
power and you will be able to get into some really short fields. And in
about twenty hours, you will fall in love.
PS: Do not use flaps for the first ten hours. They increase all the
above drag factors manyfold. Kolb flaps are great, but very powerful in
terms of killing airspeed, ease into them gently. Once you learn & know
Kolb flaps, then you will know why I say this...
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
jratcli256(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi Fellow Kolbers,
I'm new to the list. Received my kit about a month ago.
Have followed the list for a couple of weeks now and picked up on a reference to the high sink rate of the Kolbs.
I'm a low time pilot currently flying Cessna 172's and the Cherokee 180. Can power off land a 172 but require some power in the 180 due to the higher sink rate of this aircraft.
My current understanding is that light aircraft would have a lower sink rate.
Can some of you clarify this for me.
Happy flying,
John Ratcliffe
jratcli256(at)aol.com
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 |
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Non-Kolb musings follow-
This thread got me thinking about the mid-70's when I was an Air Traffic
Controller in Albany Georgia, at the time when the North American
Rockwell factory there was converting the Thrush agplane to the PT6
turbine engine.
A little background: Albany was built during WWII, it had a triangle of
runways, 4/22, 16/34 and 9/27. The control tower sat in the middle of
the airport, 9/27 was closed and the controller access was from the
north, we had to cross closed 9/27 to get to the tower.
Rockwell had their factory on the west side of the field (this was
before Ayers bought it, as it is now) and they had three test pilots,
who all had FAA assigned call signs, ToughBird 2, ToughBird 3, and
ToughBird 6.
It was a sort of laid-back place to work, one day we had ToughBird 6
working several miles east of the airport, and the wind had picked up
out of the west. Like about 270 at 35. He called inbound, and we gave
him the wind and asked him if he wanted 23 or 34. He told us "I know you
guys can't clear me to land on 27, because it's a closed runway, but if
you'll just separate me from your other traffic, and tell me "approved
as requested," I'll get stopped before the place on 27 where you guys
cross to go to lunch so I don't hit the your chief, and we'll all be
happy." I did. It was that sort of airport... (And for those of you
that don't know the details of ATC regs, that is perfectly legal. You
just have to know what to ask for, and how to phrase it...)
The Thrush had had a P&W radial on it since forever, and when Rockwell
started out modifying the Thrush by putting a P&W PT6 engine on it (like
the King Air's use) the test pilots were all excited trying to see what
it would do. The radials came in 600 HP & 850 HP versions, and one day
two of the test pilots requested a formation takeoff. One was in a 850
radial Thrush, the other one had the PT6 on it. And what it was really,
was a drag race. First one to 1,000' AGL won. The TurboThrush won.
About a week later, ToughBird 3 requested an "unusual" approach to 34.
(And this is where it gets sort-of Kolb related, since this thread is
about sink rates and approaches.) He was about 800' AGL, almost over the
approach end of the runway, and he was planning to pull the prop back
into Beta, and see how short of an approach and landing he could make.
Any Kolb would have been proud to claim what happened next. He pitched
over almost vertical and came down at about a vertical dive, in slow
motion, rounded out and rolled about the length of the numbers, and
stopped. He said it was the last time he would ever try that, because
the airplane shook and rattled and sounded really bad, and felt really
strange, but the company had decided that if they didn't try it, some
peanut farmer would, and it would be better if the company knew ahead of
time how things would turn out...
do not archive
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Richard Girard wrote:
| Quote: |
As a pilot transitioning to the Mark III, too, I can tell you why. Boatloads
of drag from all the stuff hanging about in the breeze and a propeller disk
that adds a second boatload. My advice, fly it like a 182 and carry power
all the way to the deck.
On 4/11/06, jratcli256(at)aol.com <jratcli256(at)aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Fellow Kolbers,
>
> I'm new to the list. Received my kit about a month ago.
>
> Have followed the list for a couple of weeks now and picked up on a
> reference to the high sink rate of the Kolbs.
>
> I'm a low time pilot currently flying Cessna 172's and the Cherokee 180.
> Can power off land a 172 but require some power in the 180 due to the higher
> sink rate of this aircraft.
>
> My current understanding is that light aircraft would have a lower sink
> rate.
>
> Can some of you clarify this for me.
>
> Happy flying,
> John Ratcliffe
> jratcli256(at)aol.com
>
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Pining for a home on the Range"
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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Possum
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:20 pm Post subject: Flight Characteristics of Kolb Mark 3 |
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At 10:03 PM 4/11/2006, you wrote:
| Quote: |
Non-Kolb musings follow-
This thread got me thinking about the mid-70's when I was an Air Traffic
Controller in Albany Georgia, at the time when the North American
Rockwell factory there was converting the Thrush agplane to the PT6
turbine engine.
|
(And for those of you
that don't know the details of ATC regs, that is perfectly legal. You
just have to know what to ask for, and how to phrase it...)
-------------------------
He is exactly right ..have to know what to ask for, and how to phrase it.
When for some strange reason you're out of gas
and you have to ask for permission to land because of engine failure.
Well............it failed, didn't it?
(really, you're out of gas at 11,000 ft five miles north of the field)
It is really hard to explain that the ETA
is about 15 minutes.
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