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Av8r3400

Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 83
Location: North Central Wisconsin (KRRL)

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:29 am Post subject: Axles

Can anyone tell me if the axle shafts for the model 1-4 bungee gear are all the same?

Thanks.

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Av8r3400

Kitfox Model IV-1200 W/912UL & IVO
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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:58 am Post subject: Re: Axles

Measure one. I think they all  3/4 "  -- Length will vary a bit on each one but likely mostly the same. I have used  4130 tube.  2 or 3 pieces that sleeve inside each other on a 440 lbs plane -- it been going for 15 years like that and never bent.

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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:51 pm Post subject: Axles

 	  Quote: 	
		  From the factory, all axles were the same.  3/4 inch solid stock.  The 

manual gave a method of drilling out the inner portion for weight reduction. 
	


My first Model IV was solid, the first owner of my present project had them 

drilled.



My impression is that they were of mild steel as when tweeking the alignment 

of the first Kitfox, it was the axles that bent rather than the landing 

gear.



Lowell Fitt

Cameron Park, CA

Second Build Model IV-1200 R-912 UL

Covering Right wing - last to cover, then paint and assembly



---

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:04 pm Post subject: Axles

You can use 3/4" hollow axles that are 1 3/8 "s longer and offerd for sale by a guy on the west coast. I think it is Brian Tracy. I have bush gear and let them stick out inside. I wish they were longer. I plan on mounting skis on them after I lengthen them. I think they were only $35 a pair with axle nuts.

   

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

 On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 5:58 AM, dave <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)>

 

Measure one. I think they all  3/4 "  -- Length will vary a bit on each one but likely mostly the same. I have used  4130 tube.  2 or 3 pieces that sleeve inside each other on a 440 lbs plane -- it been going for 15 years like that and never bent.

 

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[b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:46 pm Post subject: Axles

My axles...when I had the standard bungee gear...were mild steel. I  

very easily drilled mine out with a 7/16" drill of the correct  

length, Lowell.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 824.6 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs~178 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

On Dec 19, 2009, at 1:00 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>



> From the factory, all axles were the same.  3/4 inch solid stock.   

> The

 manual gave a method of drilling out the inner portion for weight  

 reduction. My first Model IV was solid, the first owner of my  

 present project had them drilled.



 My impression is that they were of mild steel as when tweeking the  

 alignment of the first Kitfox, it was the axles that bent rather  

 than the landing gear.



 Lowell Fitt

 Cameron Park, CA

 Second Build Model IV-1200 R-912 UL

 Covering Right wing - last to cover, then paint and assembly

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:27 pm Post subject: Axles

Pat, have you thought about using that protruding stub for a  

centering stub, and make longer ski mounts with an inner diameter of  

3/4"? The axles that I made for my skis are tubular, 1-1/4" OD, .156"  

wall, and .938" ID. You could bush the inner diameter down to your  

3/4" stub.

I welded my 1-1/4" ski mounts to a square of 1/2" thick chrome-moly,  

after boring a 1-1/4" hole in the center and vee-ing the joint area  

before welding. I chose this size ski "axle" because of the 1-1/4"  

axle nuts that Spruce sells.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 824.6 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs~178 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

On Dec 19, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   You can use 3/4" hollow axles that are 1 3/8 "s longer and offerd  

 for sale by a guy on the west coast. I think it is Brian Tracy. I  

 have bush gear and let them stick out inside. I wish they were  

 longer. I plan on mounting skis on them after I lengthen them. I  

 think they were only $35 a pair with axle nuts.



 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:50 pm Post subject: Axles

Lynn, I was planning on extending the 1 3/8' stub  7/8" with a 3/4 to 1/2" steel reducer bushing to accomadate a 3/4" x 2" long bronze oilite bushing. I am going to run a 1/2" steel rod inside the hollow axle and reducer retained by the axle retaining bolt. I'll hold the oilite bushing on with a washer on the axle and a cotter pin or retaining clip. I hope the assembly will be strong enough with that 1/2"  mild steel rod down the center. I'll only be extending by 7/8". If the axle would have been 7/8" or 1" longer it would have been perfect..

   

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

 On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 5:06 PM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>

 

Pat, have you thought about using that protruding stub for a centering stub, and make longer ski mounts with an inner diameter of 3/4"? The axles that I made for my skis are tubular, 1-1/4" OD, .156" wall, and .938" ID. You could bush the inner diameter down to your 3/4" stub.

 I welded my 1-1/4" ski mounts to a square of 1/2" thick chrome-moly, after boring a 1-1/4" hole in the center and vee-ing the joint area before welding. I chose this size ski "axle" because of the 1-1/4" axle nuts that Spruce sells.

 

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 824.6 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs~178 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)  

On Dec 19, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  You can use 3/4" hollow axles that are 1 3/8 "s longer and offerd for sale by a guy on the west coast. I think it is Brian Tracy. I have bush gear and let them stick out inside. I wish they were longer. I plan on mounting skis on them after I lengthen them. I think they were only $35 a pair with axle nuts.

 

Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford, IL



	




  

 he Annual List Fund Raiser.  Click on

 -=     * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com

 omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com

  http:/r generous support!

 ronics List Features Navigator to browse

 s.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ==============



[b]

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Axles

I ordered some .750" 4130 .250" wall thickness and took it over to a buddy of mine to have the ends threaded for the nut.  I left a few inches sticking out on the inside of each axle so I can get the jack on it for doing wheel to ski swaps.  I have bent the solid axles, but have not yet bent the hollow axles.  Hollow is actually stronger and less prone to bending than the solid ones so my engineer buddies say.



EDIT... yes, they are the same unless someone has modified them.  They should all be .750" axles.

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Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: Axles

Just be sure the ski axle is long enough to counteract the forces  

that will be exerted on it by those frozen ruts acting on the ski  

itself. Three feet or so of leverage (half-length of ski) acting on a  

2" long axle can produce quite a force. I tend to overbuild maybe,  

but better that than some wreckage.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 824.8 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs~178 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

On Dec 19, 2009, at 8:47 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn, I was planning on extending the 1 3/8' stub  7/8" with a 3/4  

 to 1/2" steel reducer bushing to accomadate a 3/4" x 2" long bronze  

 oilite bushing. I am going to run a 1/2" steel rod inside the  

 hollow axle and reducer retained by the axle retaining bolt. I'll  

 hold the oilite bushing on with a washer on the axle and a cotter  

 pin or retaining clip. I hope the assembly will be strong enough  

 with that 1/2"  mild steel rod down the center. I'll only be  

 extending by 7/8". If the axle would have been 7/8" or 1" longer it  

 would have been perfect..



 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:54 am Post subject: Axles

I like the idea of the 4130 tubing for the axles, but I have found in 

several applications using 4130 that the tubing outside diameter is always 

several thousands over an exact .750".  That is after using the correct size 

reamer in the reciever tube.



I have tried to get it inside .750 ID bearings - no go. and this is a 

constant with smaller diameters as well - at least the tubing from ACS.



What did you do to get it in the landing gear?  Did your friend also machine 

the OD to .750?



I just checked my reamer and a piece of .750" stock and the reamer checked 

out at .750 and the tube at .755.



Lowell



---

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Axles

chucked it in the lathe, then used a machine file very lightly to get the .750 OD.  Could have just turned it on the lathe but the file was alot quicker.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:07 am Post subject: Axles

Adjustable reamer?



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 824.8 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs~178 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

On Dec 20, 2009, at 11:45 AM, Lowell Fitt wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>



 I just checked my reamer and a piece of .750" stock and the reamer  

 checked out at .750 and the tube at .755.



 Lowell

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:30 pm Post subject: Axles

Lynn, Thanks for advice. Wouldn't a shorter axle be less tortional force on the axle? It would require the mount to be heavier in the axle area but have less force on the axle perpendicular to the axle than a longer one. I like to over build too. You guys can buy those 3/4" 4130  hollow axles from Brian Tracy in Oregon for $35 a pair with axle nuts. At least I think the name is Brian Tracy. Thats where I got mine. They are 1 3/8" longer than the original KF axles. 

   

 Pat Reilly

 On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)> wrote:

 [quote] --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>

Just be sure the ski axle is long enough to counteract the forces that will be exerted on it by those frozen ruts acting on the ski itself. Three feet or so of leverage (half-length of ski) acting on a 2" long axle can produce quite a force. I tend to overbuild maybe, but better that than some wreckage.  



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger



Jabiru 2200, #2062, 824.8 hrs  

Countdown to 1000 hrs~178 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)



 On Dec 19, 2009, at 8:47 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  Lynn, I was planning on extending the 1 3/8' stub  7/8" with a 3/4 to 1/2" steel reducer bushing to accomadate a 3/4" x 2" long bronze oilite bushing. I am going to run a 1/2" steel rod inside the hollow axle and reducer retained by the axle retaining bolt. I'll hold the oilite bushing on with a washer on the axle and a cotter pin or retaining clip. I hope the assembly will be strong enough with that 1/2"  mild steel rod down the center. I'll only be extending by 7/8". If the axle would have been 7/8" or 1" longer it would have been perfect..

 

Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford, IL



	




  

 he Annual List Fund Raiser.  Click on

 -=     * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com

 omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com

  http:/r generous support!

 ronics List Features Navigator to browse

 s.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ==============



[b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:45 pm Post subject: Axles

A shorter "ski axle" would be less torsional force on the "wheel  

axle", I believe. But I was referring to what the ski will do to the  

"ski axle" if the ski axle isn't strong enough. A ski caught in a  

frozen rut will try to twist, wrench, and otherwise mess with what it  

is attached to...and the first thing it's attached to in your plan is  

the "ski axle."  I bolt my ski axle onto the inside/backside of the  

Grove gear, using the 4 bolts that attach the Grove axle.





Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 824.8 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs~178 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

On Dec 20, 2009, at 5:25 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn, Thanks for advice. Wouldn't a shorter axle be less tortional  

 force on the axle? It would require the mount to be heavier in the  

 axle area but have less force on the axle perpendicular to the axle  

 than a longer one. I like to over build too. You guys can buy those  

 3/4" 4130  hollow axles from Brian Tracy in Oregon for $35 a pair  

 with axle nuts. At least I think the name is Brian Tracy. Thats  

 where I got mine. They are 1 3/8" longer than the original KF axles.



 Pat Reilly

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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:47 am Post subject: Axles

Lynn, Agreed. That's why I said the ski mount would need to be built heavy. We are on the same page. Thanks for the picture.

  

 Pat Reilly

 On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 7:40 PM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)> wrote:

 [quote]A shorter "ski axle" would be less torsional force on the "wheel axle", I believe. But I was referring to what the ski will do to the "ski axle" if the ski axle isn't strong enough. A ski caught in a frozen rut will try to twist, wrench, and otherwise mess with what it is attached to...and the first thing it's attached to in your plan is the "ski axle."  I bolt my ski axle onto the inside/backside of the Grove gear, using the 4 bolts that attach the Grove axle.

 



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 824.8 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs~178 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

 Status: flying (and learning)

On Dec 20, 2009, at 5:25 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  Lynn, Thanks for advice. Wouldn't a shorter axle be less tortional force on the axle? It would require the mount to be heavier in the axle area but have less force on the axle perpendicular to the axle than a longer one. I like to over build too. You guys can buy those 3/4" 4130  hollow axles from Brian Tracy in Oregon for $35 a pair with axle nuts. At least I think the name is Brian Tracy. Thats where I got mine. They are 1 3/8" longer than the original KF axles.

 

Pat Reilly



	


[b]

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:22 am Post subject: Axles

Lynn, Thanks again. We are on the same page, but after looking at your photo I realize I will have to plate my tubes to reinforce them to distribute the tortional forces along the 2" long ski axle so as to not apply all that force only where the tubes join the axle. The ski axle in your photo has another one on the other side. Mine will not. Damn, I guess what I really need to do is find out if I can buy 3 1/2" longer axles from Tracy O'Brien. And, make my ski axle 4" long.

  KF's NOTE I PREVIOUSLY STATED YOU COULD BUY 3/4" x 10" LONG HOLLOW CROMEMOLY AXLES FROM BRIAN TRACY. I SHOULD HAVE SAID TRACY O'BRIEN. TRACY HAS A WEBSITE with the axles, brakes, etc..  BRIAN TRACY has a website also. BUT, HE IS A SALES TRAINER. Sorry about my dislexia. As a young girl cashier once told me, "It's not dislexic being easy you know". 

   

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

 On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 7:40 PM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)> wrote:

 [quote]A shorter "ski axle" would be less torsional force on the "wheel axle", I believe. But I was referring to what the ski will do to the "ski axle" if the ski axle isn't strong enough. A ski caught in a frozen rut will try to twist, wrench, and otherwise mess with what it is attached to...and the first thing it's attached to in your plan is the "ski axle."  I bolt my ski axle onto the inside/backside of the Grove gear, using the 4 bolts that attach the Grove axle.

 



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 824.8 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs~178 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

 Status: flying (and learning)

On Dec 20, 2009, at 5:25 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  Lynn, Thanks for advice. Wouldn't a shorter axle be less tortional force on the axle? It would require the mount to be heavier in the axle area but have less force on the axle perpendicular to the axle than a longer one. I like to over build too. You guys can buy those 3/4" 4130  hollow axles from Brian Tracy in Oregon for $35 a pair with axle nuts. At least I think the name is Brian Tracy. Thats where I got mine. They are 1 3/8" longer than the original KF axles.

 

Pat Reilly



	


[b]

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