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Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

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Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:06 pm Post subject: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

Hi All,



I hope all is well with Christmas Day coming. Here is an article that may save you lots of money and heartache. It is a reflection on logbook entries and your aircraft documentation. This was written for the Flight Design group, but it applies to every aircraft. If it helps one person it will be worth the heat over the article.



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Merry Christmas and be Safe for the Holidays,

Roger

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Logbooks and Documentation can Cost you Big

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_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:35 am Post subject: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

And then there are the mechanics that do all the paperwork but don't actually do the inspection.

Your statement that all things done must be listed in the logbook entry could get you into trouble. Should I make a list of all the things you did NOT list in your logbook entries? There are dozens of things that you did not list in your example logbook entries that are required to be done.  



In the logbook entry a mechanic/inspector is required to state what type of inspection was performed with the date and tach/hobbs time, ADs and SBs done and REFERENCE the documents controlling the inspection. S/he is also required to list all discrepancies found, plus remedies taken with reference to methods. A mechanic cannot realistically list everything he did during the inspection in the logbook entry. That is what references are for.

  



As you stated, there are good mechanics, bad mechanics and so-so mechanics. Grading them purely on what the logbook says is a risky endeavor. My personal approach is to provide a thorough work report to the customer with all the details that he needs to know about his aircraft. Sometimes this report is less than a full page; sometimes it is many pages. AND I do this before actually doing any corrective work to get the customer's OK before doing so. 

  



Thom Riddle

Powerplant Mechanic since 1972

http://sites.google.com/site/riddletr/a&pmechanix

  [quote][b]

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

Good Morning Thom,

Merry Christmas



Congratulations you are just the kind of thinking and post I was looking for. I was hoping to stir people's thought up some. I didn't care so much as what was specifically in the samples, but to make people run with this and look at their next inspection paperwork and the future of their plane whether for sale or to be the next buyer.

Glad you see it that way, you have helped me drive my point home. Showing that all mechanics can usually do a better job. That many of the logbooks lack the documentation, check list and discrepancy list. Using the supplied check list will help bridge those gaps where some things fall a little short. Some homework is required on each plane inspected.



The whole point of the article was not just strictly logbooks, but what they will cost you later whether dealing with an authority or a prospective buyer. It is to start getting everyone to try and do better with their paperwork. Do all the paperwork and using check list will help you stay focused and on the right paper trail.



The two poor logbook entries came from a plane that also had a wing tip replaced. No mention in the logs about it, but that info was found and now it looks like the owner was concealing it. That makes one ask what else might someone try and hide.

The article was to help get people to protect themselves and get top dollar when they sell their plane or to have a better idea of what they are buying. Part of my point was the buyer doesn't have a lot to go on to start with. He can take the sellers word, get a pre-buy (not as reliable as one might think,as I have seen over the last two months) and look at the logbooks and check list and discrepancy list. When you find someone well organized, methodical and complete you tend to lend more weight to them when making a decision.

Thanks and Happy Holidays,

Roger

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

Merry xmas guys,



A little bit of an aside on this, but regarding annual condition inspections....



is it just me, or is a condition inspection an _inspection_ and not a whole bunch of maintenance and repair work?



I've often wondered about this because the main nightmare story I hear about annuals is when the plane ends up staying in the AnP's shop for days and sometimes weeks with all the repairs and maintenance that has to be done. 

Even with standard category planes you hear this all the time, the annuals run 1000's of bucks plus parts and labor.



Sure, you expect a second set of eyes to find things that you might have missed and you want them to. But seems to me annuals are often treated like huge one-shot repair/maintenance sessions that cost up the wazoo and take days and days.



My take on it is, I'm a strong believer in the "rolling annual" - a constant series of inspections and repairs as they come up with logbook entries for everything I find and what I do to fix it. 

For example here's a listing out of my logbook from April until now (that's alittle more than half a year since last annual, but to keep it short):

- replace prop to fix harmonic vibration problem

- redo W&B

- compression check (suspected intake leak)

- oil/filter change

- change pickup line inside tank, old one starting to rot

- change main tires, check prop bolts

- fix inspection covers, reseat jam nuts on ail. pushrods, check for tightness

- new fuel lines/filter, add heat sheilds

- entry about stabiliator attach bolt movement, shim up elevator pushrod clevis

- replace prop bolts with correct hardware (oops!)

- repair positive lead on starter (came off), fix rubbing against an oil hose

- check stabilator end play - within spec

- check for vert. stab. skin cracks (as per Titan advisory)

- check wing attach bolts, tighten so spec, check prop bolts, check all engine hose clamps

- replace ELT batteries, note new expiration



Er, you get the idea. And a lot of that came during the down months of spring and summer where I hardly flew the plane.... and my annual CI is due end of Feb and I haven't even started going through the checklist of things to be done for that. That's a bunch of stuff, cleaning, lubing, spark plugs, checks etc.....



Can you imagine what an annual with all this stuff left to be done at that annual would be like? I don't think I'd ever get the plane back even tho this is all routine stuff (and doesn't even include the CI checklist required in my op limits).



Yet I've seen logbooks on even standard category planes where the only entries are the annuals and nothing else. Talk about hell... 



For me, I want the annual to be the AnP looking it over, doing what he needs to do and not rebuilding my plane and overhauling my engine. My last annual was about 3 hours and $300. Hopefully the upcoming one will be about the same. 



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

Hi Lucien,



You are exactly right. You should be looking over your plane in between inspections and correcting issues as they come up. Jot them down in the logbook and sign it if you are allowed or get a mechanic to take care of it then and there. The inspection then is easier and less expensive. If an owner doesn't do this then it usually ends up falling on the mechanic. If it is an item that isn't an airworthy issue, but should be looked at soon, the mechanic might just note it in his inspection, but if it is an airworthy or compliance issue he either has to fix it or can't sign it off until it is fixed. So I think it is great when people look over their plane and I don't have a lot to do, but look it over or fix a few minor items before signing, but I get planes in all the time with list like yours. When the mechanic signs his name he is stating that everything is done, safe and airworthy according to the Mfg and FAA. Sometimes on more expensive inspections the owners are their worst enemy because they haven't taken the time to really get down a look in detail at their plane. That said owners don't always have the trained eye or experience to see things. I am very leery of cheap inspections. Cheap $$$$ inspections tend to be cheap inspections. No there is no guarantee, but getting references on your mechanic or checking his reputation is the best thing or just stand there and watch him.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

 	  Roger Lee wrote: 	
		  Hi Lucien,



You are exactly right. You should be looking over your plane in between inspections and correcting issues as they come up. Jot them down in the logbook and sign it if you are allowed or get a mechanic to take care of it then and there. The inspection then is easier and less expensive. If an owner doesn't do this then it usually ends up falling on the mechanic. If it is an item that isn't an airworthy issue, but should be looked at soon, the mechanic might just note it in his inspection, but if it is an airworthy or compliance issue he either has to fix it or can't sign it off until it is fixed. So I think it is great when people look over their plane and I don't have a lot to do, but look it over or fix a few minor items before signing, but I get planes in all the time with list like yours. When the mechanic signs his name he is stating that everything is done, safe and airworthy according to the Mfg and FAA. Sometimes on more expensive inspections the owners are their worst enemy because they haven't taken the time to really get down a look in detail at their plane. That said owners don't always have the trained eye or experience to see things. I am very leery of cheap inspections. Cheap $$$$ inspections tend to be cheap inspections. No there is no guarantee, but getting references on your mechanic or checking his reputation is the best thing or just stand there and watch him. 	




Well in my case, because my plane is EAB, I have to get the CI signed off by a traditional A&P. That can mean someone who doesn't know a rotax from a hole in the ground and may or may not be familiar with airframe issues of my particular plane.



Last year, a few things were caught and couple bad things were missed. The scariest was the throttle cable starting to get cut in half by the swivel attachment at the rear throttle quadrant (could have been very dangerous), and the spark plugs incorrectly torqued (could have been every expensive). Fortunately the plugs were undertightened and not overtightened but my hair still stood up on end a little bit after going over the plugs myself with my torque wrench later at the hangar.



So I like to be an informed owner as mistakes can always be made and things can be missed.  Or you can be in unsafe situations like mine where the holes in the rules mean the designated repairmen really don't know very well what they're looking at. So in my case, it's doubly important that I be able to keep after my plane and engine myself to take up any slack that can occurs.



I already have a bit of a list of things to go through before my annual, gearbox friction check, another oil change, getting new plugs and the heat conduction goop, cleaning/oiling air filters, reline brake pads.... and some other things I feel like I've already forgotten... seems like the more work I do on the plane the more things that need to be done to it....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

hgmckay

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 397

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:50 am Post subject: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

Lucien:

  

 Your email spoke to really what should be happening all along during a year of flying. If your plane is an E-LSA then you yourself can handle the actual "100 hour or Annual Inspection" of your own personal plane and, sign off the Inspection if you hold a FAA Light Sport Repairman Certificate. If you don't have one you can get one by attending a FAA 16 hour training course.

  

 Hugh McKay

 Rotax912UL

 Allegro 2000

 N661WW



 

   From: lucien <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 11:52:33 AM

Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You



--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)>



Merry xmas guys,



A little bit of an aside on this, but regarding annual condition inspections....



is it just me, or is a condition inspection an _inspection_ and not a whole bunch of maintenance and repair work?



I've often wondered about this because the main nightmare story I hear about annuals is when the plane ends up staying in the AnP's shop for days and  sometimes weeks with all the repairs and maintenance that has to be done. 

Even with standard category planes you hear this all the time, the annuals run 1000's of bucks plus parts and labor.



Sure, you expect a second set of eyes to find things that you might have missed and you want them to. But seems to me annuals are often treated like huge one-shot repair/maintenance sessions that cost up the wazoo and take days and days.



My take on it is, I'm a strong believer in the "rolling annual" - a constant series of inspections and repairs as they come up with logbook entries for everything I find and what I do to fix it. 

For example here's a listing out of my logbook from April until now:

- replace prop to fix harmonic vibration problem

- compression check (suspected intake leak)

- oil/filter change

- change pickup line inside tank, old one starting to rot

- change main tires, check prop bolts

- fix inspection covers,  reseat jam nuts on ail. pushrods, check for tightness

- new fuel lines/filter, add heat sheilds

- entry about stabiliator attach bolt movement, shim up elevator pushrod clevis

- replace prop bolts with correct hardware (oops!)

- repair positive lead on starter (came off), fix rubbing against an oil hose

- check stabilator end play - within spec

- check for vert. stab. skin cracks (as per Titan advisory)

- check wing attach bolts, tighten so spec, check prop bolts, check all engine hose clamps

- replace ELT batteries, note new expiration



Er, you get the idea..... and my annual CI is due end of Feb and I haven't even started going through the checklist of things to be done for that. That's a bunch of stuff, cleaning, lubing, spark plugs, checks etc.....



Can you imagine what an annual with all this stuff left to be done at that annual would be like? I don't think I'd ever get the plane back even tho this is all routine  stuff (and doesn't even include the CI checklist required in my op limits).



Yet I've seen logbooks on even standard category planes where the only entries are the annuals and nothing else. Talk about hell... 



For me, I want the annual to be the AnP looking it over, doing what he needs to do and not rebuilding my plane and overhauling my engine. My last annual was about 3 hours and $300. Hopefully the upcoming one will be about the same. 



LS



--------

LS

Titan II SS





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.phpbsp; * AeroElectric www.buildersbooks   - ===============

 [quote][b]

bob(at)fly-ul.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:09 am Post subject: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

On 09:28 AM 12/23/2009, Hugh MCKAY III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Lucien:

 

Your email spoke to really what should be happening all along during a year of flying. If your plane is an E-LSA then you yourself can handle the actual "100 hour or Annual Inspection" of your own personal plane and, sign off the Inspection if you hold a FAA Light Sport Repairman Certificate. If you don't have one you can get one by attending a FAA 16 hour training course.


	




Hugh. I believe Lucien mentioned his plane being an Experimental-amateur-built, so the "16 hour course" repairman certificate does not apply to him.



--

Bob Comperini

e-mail: bob(at)fly-ul.com

WWW: http://www.fly-ul.com

hgmckay

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 397

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:58 pm Post subject: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

Bob:

  

 I saw that on his latter email. You are correct.

  

 Hugh



 

   From: Bob Comperini <bob(at)fly-ul.com>

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 2:09:11 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You



--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Bob Comperini <bob(at)fly-ul.com (bob(at)fly-ul.com)>



On 09:28 AM 12/23/2009, Hugh MCKAY III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Lucien:

 

Your email spoke to really what should be happening all along during a year of flying. If your plane is an E-LSA then you yourself can handle the actual "100 hour or Annual Inspection" of your own personal plane and, sign off the Inspection if you hold a FAA Light Sport Repairman Certificate. If you don't have one you can get one by  attending a FAA 16 hour training course.


	




Hugh. I believe Lucien mentioned his plane being an Experimental-amateur-built, so the "16 hour course" repairman certificate does not apply to him.



--

Bob Comperini

e-mail: bob(at)fly-ul.com (bob(at)fly-ul.com)

WWW: http://www.fly-ul.com



www.aer www.buildersbook--> ================

 [quote][b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:22 am Post subject: Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

Some mechanics log as little as possible in the hope that they will avoid some liability. The logic of this eludes me but it is not uncommon. 



I once bought an Exp A/B Titan Tornado 912 that was reasonably well maintained. It was built by an A&P who rebuilds aircraft engines as his main line of work. The only logbook entries for the Titan were oil/filter changes and annual condition inspections, though I'm sure he did a lot of stuff that was not logged. I asked him about it and he said I only record what the FAA requires. Since SBs etc are not required on Exp A/B he never recorded them.



Regarding Lucien's comments about expensive annuals:



As you know, the inspection is not a maintenance and/or repair activity, except for the engine cleaning and oil/filter change and other minor stuff like gapping plugs etc.. Generally a mechanic/inspector's flat charge is for doing the inspection only. Remedial or corrective work is not part of the inspection but often required for return to service. We always issue an inspection report before doing any corrective work for two reasons. One is that any corrective work should be discussed with the owner so he can choose which (if any) of his options for corrective measures is done. Two, we've not been contracted to do any corrective work until the owner gives us the go-ahead and therefore he is not obligated to pay us for this un-contracted work. One of his options is to not get the work done at all. If the work is elective in nature but not required, then we can return the aircraft to service without it being done. If it is required work, then he can say don't do it and we do not return the aircraft to service and that is part of the logbook entry. If he flies away after paying our inspection fee, then our liability is ended there except to notify the FAA of what we did.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:46 am Post subject: Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

 	  Thom Riddle wrote: 	
		  Some mechanics log as little as possible in the hope that they will avoid some liability. The logic of this eludes me but it is not uncommon. 



I once bought an Exp A/B Titan Tornado 912 that was reasonably well maintained. It was built by an A&P who rebuilds aircraft engines as his main line of work. The only logbook entries for the Titan were oil/filter changes and annual condition inspections, though I'm sure he did a lot of stuff that was not logged. I asked him about it and he said I only record what the FAA requires. Since SBs etc are not required on Exp A/B he never recorded them.



Regarding Lucien's comments about expensive annuals:



As you know, the inspection is not a maintenance and/or repair activity, except for the engine cleaning and oil/filter change and other minor stuff like gapping plugs etc.. Generally a mechanic/inspector's flat charge is for doing the inspection only. Remedial or corrective work is not part of the inspection but often required for return to service. We always issue an inspection report before doing any corrective work for two reasons. One is that any corrective work should be discussed with the owner so he can choose which (if any) of his options for corrective measures is done. Two, we've not been contracted to do any corrective work until the owner gives us the go-ahead and therefore he is not obligated to pay us for this un-contracted work. One of his options is to not get the work done at all. If the work is elective in nature but not required, then we can return the aircraft to service without it being done. If it is required work, then he can say don't do it and we do not return the aircraft to service and that is part of the logbook entry. If he flies away after paying our inspection fee, then our liability is ended there except to notify the FAA of what we did. 	




A couple other thoughts I have on logging and inspections:



On an experimental airplane, I don't see the logic of not logging any work or inspections you (the owner/op) do. Unless you're actively trying to evade some rule or law it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm the one risking his neck flying around in the air in the thing, I also don't have a photographic memory so I need some kind of record of the maintenance/repairs/checks I've done and not done on the plane so I can keep track of what's coming up. I usually can't even remember when I changed the oil, what filter I've used, tightening torque used, if I checked the mag. plug etc. So that goes in the logbook when I do it so I have a ready reference for when it needs to be done again.



My personal opinion is the logbook is there for _me_ to know what state my airplane is in at a given time. The legal requirements I consider to be minima but I try to maintain a higher standard for myself. So on my planes, I don't so much as turn a wrench that it doesn't go in the logbook with what was done and even the tightening torque used.



As for the legally required inspections, they're well intended but in actual practice they can do more harm than good. I used to live in TX where cars had to have "annuals". A good idea in theory, but in practice one of the cheesiest, snivelling scams ever come up with by a state govt. The intent is not public safety, but more sinister motives like getting a particular type or age of car off the road.



For aircraft, the situation is much better but I still believe you need to cover your tail at all times. Like I said, things can be missed and you can't always trust your mechanics. And the rules are inappropriate in some cases, like when you have an LSA/912 class plane like mine in the EAB category - here the rules are unsafe in that they require annual CI's by unqualified/untrained mechanics in case you're not the original builder. This is a hole in the EAB rules that didn't anticipate LSA's powered by 912's. The SP rule is an attempt to provide an alternative, but the safety problem with the original rule still exists for us guys who buy EAB 912 planes 2nd-hand.



Here the owner/op has to be doubly careful. Luck is your only ally here - your AnP may be familiar with your engine/airframe, but they also may not be. Not a situation you want to hang your life on - here you have to step in take up the slack.



But even in all cases, IMO, the responsibility for the condition of my plane is ultimately mine so I have to accept that and be willing to do the work to maintain the plane regardless (this is why I prefer to fly experimentals or ultralights)



So that's what I consider the logbook to be - a record primarily for me to keep track of the state of my plane. The legal requirements are, IMO, a very distant second function to that main function for me.



Same with inspections. I don't consider an annual CI to be sufficient, so I do a kind of continuous CI of the plane on my own and record what I do in the logbook, legal or not.



I like to be legal, but I far prefer to be safe instead if I have to choose between them and do choose safe every time.



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Last edited by lucien on Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:53 am; edited 3 times in total

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:49 am Post subject: Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

Merry Christmas Thom,

  Hope your staying warm enough back there.



Very insightful post. Of the people that come through here they do have me make all the fixes, tweaking and such, but you are 100% correct that you may not need to for the airworthy part or the owner doesn't want you to. Then it just becomes a logbook entry. My clients tend to want to know that they are 100% and pay to make sure it's done that way from nose to tail. The people who just want a logbook signed won't come to me because they know I won't take shortcuts, and that's works for me. I have people from 6 different states that keep me busy all year because they know I don't take shortcuts, they feel safer when they leave and they really got what they paid for, plus they get documentation that they usually don't get any where else. The people who care will come to you if you treat them like the only aircraft on earth and make sure it's 100% when it leaves. People will pay for that level of service. People like peace of mind because they read the papers where pilots fall out of the sky and I'm sure they don't want to be one of them. Most of my clients are cross country types, too. Almost all are SLSA and very few ELSA except for engine work.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:13 am Post subject: Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

 	  Roger Lee wrote: 	
		  Merry Christmas Thom,

  Hope your staying warm enough back there.



Very insightful post. Of the people that come through here they do have me make all the fixes, tweaking and such, but you are 100% correct that you may not need to for the airworthy part or the owner doesn't want you to. Then it just becomes a logbook entry. My clients tend to want to know that they are 100% and pay to make sure it's done that way from nose to tail. The people who just want a logbook signed won't come to me because they know I won't take shortcuts, and that's works for me. I have people from 6 different states that keep me busy all year because they know I don't take shortcuts, they feel safer when they leave and they really got what they paid for, plus they get documentation that they usually don't get any where else. The people who care will come to you if you treat them like the only aircraft on earth and make sure it's 100% when it leaves. People will pay for that level of service. People like peace of mind because they read the papers where pilots fall out of the sky and I'm sure they don't want to be one of them. Most of my clients are cross country types, too. Almost all are SLSA and very few ELSA except for engine work. 	




To be honest, if my plane were ELSA and I lived near you or Thom, I'd still take the plane to one of you guys for at least the first CI (owner-assist of course), so I could see what a typical LSA CI really should look like. And I could benifit from your experience with my type of plane and motor, etc. 



Like I said, the LSA rule, tho I'm a harsh critic of it in most other respects, is a pretty decent attempt to close the hole in the EAB rule that I talked about earlier. I.e., get LSA class planes maintained/inspected by persons legally qualified to inspect/maintain them.



As it is, my plane being EAB, I freely and willingly admit I'd rather the mechanic that signs off the annual CI do as little as possible and stay as far away from my engine with a wrench as I can keep him (unless he's actually trained and experienced with LSA's which is not the case where I am). I'd be perfectly ok if he even pencil-whipped the whole thing.



That's a safety concern, not a rebellious-against-the-law one. Like I said, EAB LSA's where you're not the builder are a kind of edge case in the EAB rules where they actually lead to an unsafe situation that weren't anticipated so it's not really anyone's fault. 

My friend who has a 2nd hand RV doesn't have to worry as much as most of the plane is already familiar to the typical AnP, but I do have to be very careful.



BTW, at my airport I and my friend with the RV seem to be the only nutcases that insist on full owner-assist annuals. Even my AnP noted last year that "yep... you two guys seem to be the only ones...". And even he has given up on owner-assist (an annual on an RV is pretty grueling). So I'm the only mental patient left who seems to want to do his own 



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

Lucien,



As you are aware, many (perhaps most) standard category aircraft owners don't really want to understand their airplanes well enough to do even those relatively simple owner-allowed preventative maintenance items listed in the appendix A section C of part 43. They prefer to trust completely the mechanic/inspector who does all the work for him/her. 



I encourage every owner regardless of the type of aircraft to learn as much as possible about their airplane so they can know when something is just not right before it becomes broken and they become a statistic. Some take this advice seriously but some don't. All you can do is lead the horse to the water. 



I know you've seen signs at mechanic shops that say something like

Flat Rate $50/hr

$60/hr if you watch

$70/hr if you help



When we do owner-assisted (fairly rare) inspections, the owner is instructed in how to do something and then helped if he needs it, with constant supervision. He does not get a break on price because it usually does take longer to teach something than to do something but I always feel better when the owner is thereafter better equipped knowledge-wise at the end of the process.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:52 am Post subject: Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

 	  Thom Riddle wrote: 	
		  Lucien,



As you are aware, many (perhaps most) standard category aircraft owners don't really want to understand their airplanes well enough to do even those relatively simple owner-allowed preventative maintenance items listed in the appendix A section C of part 43. They prefer to trust completely the mechanic/inspector who does all the work for him/her. 



I encourage every owner regardless of the type of aircraft to learn as much as possible about their airplane so they can know when something is just not right before it becomes broken and they become a statistic. Some take this advice seriously but some don't. All you can do is lead the horse to the water. 



I know you've seen signs at mechanic shops that say something like

Flat Rate $50/hr

$60/hr if you watch

$70/hr if you help



When we do owner-assisted (fairly rare) inspections, the owner is instructed in how to do something and then helped if he needs it, with constant supervision. He does not get a break on price because it usually does take longer to teach something than to do something but I always feel better when the owner is thereafter better equipped knowledge-wise at the end of the process. 	




Yep, I'd kill for that. As there's still a lot about my plane and motor I still don't know (in fact I may be PM'ing you again on the carburettor overhaul issue here in a bit, something that still needs to be done).



BTW, to my knowledge there's nothing in the rules for standard category that actually prevents the owner/op from participating in or even slap doing maintenance, repairs and even the annual - it's just that all the work and inspections have to be signed off by an AnP (and an AnP with inspector rating on the annual). Tough to find an AnP that'd be that permissive, tho.



This year I think I'm actually going to go through the part 43 checklist on my plane myself in Feb. before taking it in. The AnP will still have to do it at annual but I don't think I've actually done the list before on any of my other planes.



LS

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LS
Titan II SS

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:21 am Post subject: Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

The preventative maintenance items in the appendix referred to above are those that the owner can legally perform and make his own logbook entries for, using his pilot certificate number, like mechanics use their mech. certificate numbers. Regardless of who does the preventative maintenance item it must be logged. Some owners think they can do it but don't have to log it. Not so; it must be logged to be legal.



Some mechanics, if s/he knows you and knows that you do good and contentious work, will sign off on owner-assisted inspections. However, some mechanics will not do any work or inspection at all on experimental aircraft of any kind. In my experience that is much more common than those who will do owner-assisted inspections. Those I've spoken to who will not do anything on exp a/b aircraft cite liability as their primary concern. What I think is really going on with these mechanics is that they know they don't know the airplane (as built) and don't have well documented maintenance manuals to go by, which is what they are used to on std. cat. aircraft.  When we inspect an experimental, by the time we're done with it we know it pretty well. The first inspection always takes longer than subsequent ones, due to the learning curve.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

 	  Thom Riddle wrote: 	
		  The preventative maintenance items in the appendix referred to above are those that the owner can legally perform and make his own logbook entries for, using his pilot certificate number, like mechanics use their mech. certificate numbers. Regardless of who does the preventative maintenance item it must be logged. Some owners think they can do it but don't have to log it. Not so; it must be logged to be legal.



Some mechanics, if s/he knows you and knows that you do good and contentious work, will sign off on owner-assisted inspections. However, some mechanics will not do any work or inspection at all on experimental aircraft of any kind. In my experience that is much more common than those who will do owner-assisted inspections. Those I've spoken to who will not do anything on exp a/b aircraft cite liability as their primary concern. What I think is really going on with these mechanics is that they know they don't know the airplane (as built) and don't have well documented maintenance manuals to go by, which is what they are used to on std. cat. aircraft.  When we inspect an experimental, by the time we're done with it we know it pretty well. The first inspection always takes longer than subsequent ones, due to the learning curve. 	




That's a good point. When I had my Kolb (FS II), I couldn't get an AnP to look at it at all primarily because of the engine (rotax 503). The airframe itself on all the Kolbs is really high quality probably the highest quality you'll see on a light a/c. it uses aircraft grade hardware, materials, fabric etc. throughout the whole plane. There's nothing goofy on it and it's all AN hardware, Stitts fabric and etc. so that's not too big of a deal for a traditional AnP to look at.



But the engine just sent em running....... Unfortunately, that along with financial reasons eventually led to me having to sell the plane, which fortunately the new owner had access to an AnP that'd be willing to sign off the CI.



But I can see it and didn't fault them for it, since they have to put their signature in the logbook.



PS: speaking of Rotax, is there a convenient way to check the timing on the 912? At my first annual, the AnP I went to asked how to check it and we couldn't figure it out. I vaguely remember looking in the maintenance manuals for this and couldn't find it..... I'm assuming its similar to the 2-strokes where you position the trigger coils just right in their mounts, but I can't see an easy way to visually check this on the 912?

LS

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LS
Titan II SS

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

Lucien,



The 912 timing is fixed by the position of the trigger coils and they are not adjustable for timing. As long as everything is fastened properly the timing is correct. On Kolbs it is easy to see these by removing the plastic cover. On tractor mounted engines it may be difficult to access this area. Fortunately, this is one area that rarely causes problems on the 912. The electronic modules can fail and the plug connectors must be well secured to the modules to prevent vibration caused problems.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

dgraham7(at)TWCNY.RR.COM
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:26 pm Post subject: Your Mechanic May have Just Cost You

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