Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

BFM/ACM
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Yak-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

lacloudchaser(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject: BFM/ACM

Good stuff, I'm sure Al and Brian Lloyd are itchin to respond !  

   

  Drew

  



Steve Dalton <sdalton(at)goeaston.net> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		                Y’all,

   

  At the risk of flogging a very deceased equine I offer the following for your consideration:

   

  Last Friday my son’s F-16 squadron lost a jet in the Atlantic.  Thankfully, the young man flying it survived.  Here is the story as related to me by folks knowledgeable of the incident.  

   

  This experienced F-16 pilot was getting checked out as an Instructor Pilot (IP).  His wingman was a very experienced IP (playing the “rookie”).  The mission they  were flying was the MOST BASIC of Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM) sorties, offensive perch set-ups.  In these set-ups the “rookie” (played by the experienced IP) starts behind the “target” (the IP trainee).  At the “fight’s on” call, the IP trainee starts a canned high-g level turn to give the “rookie” a simple BFM problem to solve.  This is as basic as it gets, BFM 101.  There is NO simpler BFM mission!  All he did was start a level hard turn!!!!!

   

  But, as he looks over his shoulder to monitor the “rookie”, the IP trainee g-locs (blacks out due to g’s).  He goes to sleep, in full afterburner, and his hand stops pulling on  the stick.  As a result, he heads downhill toward the water at Warp 9.  Thankfully, he wakes up in time to see the water RAPIDLY approaching and ejects.  The jet hits the water ½ second after ejection, but he swings in the chute for almost two minutes.  Get a feel for the downhill speed on the jet?!!?

   

  Both legs and arms are broken in the 600-700 KT ejection, but he climbs in his raft and is eventually rescued.  The rescue is a whole story in itself!!  The ACES II ejection seat is AWESOME!!!

   

  OK, so how does to this apply to us Yak/CJ people?  Simply this:  It could easily happen to one of us!!!!!

   

  It may have taken 9 g’s to put this guy to sleep.  But, would 7, 6, 5, or even 4 g’s be enough for one of us older, less physical specimens?  Folks, this was the most simple, the most basic BFM mission there is!!  And, yet, it’s not the first time this has happened.  I lost a friend at Nellis AFB in the mid-80’s IN THE EXACT  SAME SCENERIO.  Glen Hessel hit the ground so fast/hard a Park Ranger a mile away phoned in a report of an earthquake. 

   

  I hope this explains why I do not advocate any formal RPA “teaching” of BFM/ACM.  Including defensive threat reactions like done out west at All Red Star (that’s all this guy did, one simple level turn!  And he barely survived).  

   

  I know some of us will continue to do BFM/ACM, myself included, amongst ourselves.  But PLEASE consider the risks.  I also know it sounds egotistical and arrogant, but you just can’t teach BFM/ACM to guys/gals who do not have the background that fighter pilots have.  It’s one of those things that if you didn’t learn it (and survive it) in the military, you’ll never do so.  You missed your chance.  Just like most (all?) of us missed our chance to be brain surgeons/major league baseball players/rock stars/Bill Gates/NASCAR drivers/astronauts/Pope John Paul/etc.  We all followed different paths and each of us has certain talents and experiences.  We all offer something unique to the group, but, we all aren’t fighter pilots.

   

  OK, flame proof undies strapped on…fire away!

   

  Fly safe,

   Steve Dalton

   

   

   



	




 		New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman5/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://beta.messenger.yahoo.com]Call regular phones from your PC[/url] and save big.

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:06 pm Post subject: BFM/ACM

Steve.

 After 26 years in Vipers, I could not agree with you more. I have participated in 10 class A A/C accidents. 3 of which were fatal. 2 from G lock and the other from ego pressing beyond the Desired Learning Objective (DLO). One G Lock was from threat reaction with a break turn at 500 ft. The other G lock was a DBFM  sortie with lead doing a slice back. All three were friends. Amazing how the tapes always survive the smoking hole. Lost another to spatial D on a range sortie pulling off the target.

 ACM is an arena that needs to left alone. 

 I am for Tactical formation flying but not necessarily for teaching ACM.

 Doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:20 pm Post subject: BFM/ACM

Drew Blahnick wrote:



Drew,



Thanks for singling me out. I hope I meet your expectations with this

posting.



 	  Quote: 	
		       I know some of us will continue to do BFM/ACM, myself included,

     amongst ourselves.  But PLEASE consider the risks.  I also know it

     sounds egotistical and arrogant, but you just can’t teach BFM/ACM to

     guys/gals who do not have the background that fighter pilots have. 

     It’s one of those things that if you didn’t learn it (and survive

     it) in the military, you’ll never do so.  You missed your chance.


	


That is a silly statement. If I go through all the same training at the

hands of a civilian instructor or at the hands of a military instructor,

I get the same training. And it doesn't matter if you are in the

military or not. If you don't get the training and you don't have the

aptitude, you don't develop the chops. If you get the training and you

have the aptitude, you end up with the chops. There is nothing magical

about military training. It is two guys in an airplane, one teaching the

other. It doesn't matter what is sewn on your clothing or what is

painted on the airplane.



But consider this: in WWII the guys in the Luftwaffe, the RAF, the

USAAF, and the Japanese Imperial Navy Air Force had to create the skills

for ACM from whole cloth without anyone having the skills ahead of time.

Yes they killed a lot of people doing it but they figured it out without

any training ahead of time. That means that it is possible for people to

figure it out without formal military training.



 	  Quote: 	
		        Just like most (all?) of us missed our chance to be brain

     surgeons/major league baseball players/rock stars/Bill Gates/NASCAR

     drivers/astronauts/Pope John Paul/etc.  We all followed different

     paths and each of us has certain talents and experiences.  We all

     offer something unique to the group, but, we all aren’t fighter pilots.


	


I am on my third career. I am now doing something that I have never done

before. I am managing and making progress. In fact, I am doing pretty

well, thank you. Just because you "missed out" when you are young

doesn't mean you can't learn it later in life.



But I acknowledge one point: men and women at 20-something have the

fastest reaction times and best ability to learn new material. They are,

in general, going to do better at physical activity that requires peak

performance. Still, that does not mean that we cannot perform BFM/ACM

safely later in life. You might not win the fight with the youngster but

you won't necessarily kill yourself either.



As for G-LOC, guy and gals flying unlimited aerobatics subject

themselves to accelerations that meet or exceed those encountered in

BFM/ACM in our Yaks and CJs. I don't see anyone telling them they will

die if they try.



 	  Quote: 	
		       OK, flame proof undies strapped on…fire away!


	


This isn't a flame. It is just a statement of fact.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:58 am Post subject: Re: BFM/ACM

As far as the unlimited aerobatic folks pulling G's, I am assuming (I do not fly unlimited aero), that those are NOT sustained G's most of the time. Some who flies unlimited can shed some light here, but I am unaware of any current civilian airplane that can maintain sustained G's like those capable in front line fighter aircraft. In fact, the pilot is becoming the limiting factor in the airplane. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  But consider this: in WWII the guys in the Luftwaffe, the RAF, the 

USAAF, and the Japanese Imperial Navy Air Force had to create the skills 

for ACM from whole cloth without anyone having the skills ahead of time. 

Yes they killed a lot of people doing it but they figured it out without 

any training ahead of time. That means that it is possible for people to 

figure it out without formal military training. 

	




Not true. Many tactics were developed during WWI and employed in WWII. The Germans were very experienced in dog fighting due to thier participation in the Spanish Civil War. The Condor Legion (a unit send from Germany to support Franco) further developed tactics that are still in use today to inlcude most of the various tactical formations.  I have asked countless WWII US fighter pilots and all without exception have told me that they received "BFM" training prior to flying an operational mission. Now, it was certainly not like what it is today, but they did have training. If you need proof, I can forward a copy of a gunnery training report from a P-51 pilot who trained in the P-40 in Florida prior to being deployed the 359FG in 1944. I also have a book on the subject written recently covering the training involved for a new fighter pilot in WWII.



Tactics and the training of those tactics did exist during WWII and before. 



                            Ten of My Rules for Air Fighting



Wait until you see the whites of his eyes.



Fire short bursts of 1 to 2 seconds and only when your sights are definitely 'ON.' 



Whilst shooting think of nothing else; brace the whole of the body; have both hands on the stick; concentrate on your ring sight. 



Always keep a sharp lookout. "Keep your finger out"! 



Height gives you the initiative. 



Always turn and face the attack. 



Make your decisions promptly. It is better to act quickly even though your tactics are not the best. 



Never fly straight and level for more than 30 seconds in the combat area. 



When diving to attack always leave a proportion of your formation above to act as top guard. 



INITIATIVE, AGGRESSION, AIR DISCIPLINE, and TEAM WORK are words that MEAN something in Air Fighting. 



Go in quickly - Punch Hard - Get out! 



â€” Flight Lieutenant Adolphus G. 'Sailor' Malan, RSAAF, August 1941

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:10 am Post subject: BFM/ACM

Brain,

  

 You're flaming the  wrong guy here.  The original post was from Steve Dalton, former F-16 jock  and now a chief pilot for SW.  

  

 I do not feel the  association has the resources nor expertise to set up a ACM/BFM course that  would be safe for its members.  Simple as that.  Yes, "training" is a  good thing, but some "training" is unnecessary.  Outside the military, ACM  is a ego trip - period.  Ego has killed more people than  weather.  Just about every accident could be traced some way back to  ego.  

  

 The wings can be pulled  off any airplane.  It does not take G lock to do it.  Egos have a  higher tolerance to G stress loads than our airplanes.  The Yaks and CJ's  were not built to do this.  They are trainers NOT fighters.  In our  careers we've watched more than one ego trip, take the wings off perfectly good  airplanes and become lawn darts - with a hell of a lot more experience pilots  than you at the controls.

  

 In theory "training"  makes a safe pilot but "training" can also led a pilot into a complacency where  he goes too far into that part of the flight envelope for his abilities.    

  

 My personal view is  that the Darwin factor controls the ego. i.e. "There are old pilots and bold  pilots but no old bold pilots."

  

 Jim "Pappy"  Goolsby

  

  

 --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd  <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com>



Drew Blahnick  wrote:



Drew,



Thanks for singling me out. I hope I meet your  expectations with this

posting.



 	  Quote: 	
		       I know some of  us will continue to do BFM/ACM, myself included,

      amongst ourselves.  But PLEASE consider the risks.  I also know  it

     sounds egotistical and arrogant, but you just  canâ€™t teach BFM/ACM to

     guys/gals who do not have the  background that fighter pilots have. 

     Itâ€™s one of  those things that if you didnâ€™t learn it (and survive

      it) in the military, youâ€™ll never do so.  You missed your  chance.


	


That is a silly statement. If I go through all the same training  at the

hands of a civilian instructor or at the hands of a military  instructor,

I get the same training. And it doesn't matter if you are in  the

military or not. If you don't get the training and you don't have  the

aptitude, you don't develop the chops. If you get the training and  you

have the aptitude, you end up with the chops. There is nothing  magical

about military training. It is two guys in an airplane, one teaching  the

other. It doesn't matter what is sewn on your clothing or what  is

painted on the airplane.



But consider this: in WWII the guys in the  Luftwaffe, the RAF, the

USAAF, and the Japanese Imperial Navy Air Force had  to create the skills

for ACM from whole cloth without anyone having the  skills ahead of time.

Yes they killed a lot of people doing it but they  figured it out without

any training ahead of time. That means that it is  possible for people to

figure it out without formal military  training.



 	  Quote: 	
		        Just like most (all?) of us missed our  chance to be brain

     surgeons/major league baseball  players/rock stars/Bill Gates/NASCAR

      drivers/astronauts/Pope John Paul/etc.  We all followed  different

     paths and each of us has certain talents  and experiences.  We all

     offer something unique  to the group, but, we all arenâ€™t fighter pilots.


	


I am on my third career.  I am now doing something that I have never done

before. I am managing and  making progress. In fact, I am doing pretty

well, thank you. Just because you  "missed out" when you are young

doesn't mean you can't learn it later in  life.



But I acknowledge one point: men and women at 20-something have  the

fastest reaction times and best ability to learn new material. They  are,

in general, going to do better at physical activity that requires  peak

performance. Still, that does not mean that we cannot perform  BFM/ACM

safely later in life. You might not win the fight with the youngster  but

you won't necessarily kill yourself either.



As for G-LOC, guy and  gals flying unlimited aerobatics subject

themselves to accelerations that  meet or exceed those encountered in

BFM/ACM in our Yaks and CJs. I don't see  anyone telling them they will

die if they try.



 	  Quote: 	
		        OK, flame proof undies strapped onâ€¦fire away!


	


This isn't a flame. It is  just a statement of fact.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                          361 Catterline  Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA  95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)              +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny  of petty things . . .

- Antoine de  Saint-Exupery

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:39 am Post subject: BFM/ACM

All very true. I believe the German Gentleman's name the initially

developed fighter tactics was named Imeilman (sp).

More like basic fighter maneuvers.

Doc

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50(at)msn.com>

 To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 4/12/2006 7:04:09 AM

 Subject: Re: BFM/ACM



 

 > But consider this: in WWII the guys in the Luftwaffe, the RAF, the 

 > USAAF, and the Japanese Imperial Navy Air Force had to create the

skills 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   > for ACM from whole cloth without anyone having the skills ahead of

time. 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   > Yes they killed a lot of people doing it but they figured it out

without 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   > any training ahead of time. That means that it is possible for people

to 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   > figure it out without formal military training. 

 > 

 Not true. Many tactics were developed during WWI and employed in WWII.

The Germans were very experienced in dog fighting due to thier
	


participation in the Spanish Civil War. The Condor Legion (a unit send from

Germany to support Franco) further developed tactics that are still in use

today to inlcude most of the various tactical formations.  I have asked

countless WWII US fighter pilots and all without exception have told me

that they received "BFM" training prior to flying an operational mission.

Now, it was certainly not like what it is today, but they did have

training. If you need proof, I can forward a copy of a gunnery training

report from a P-51 pilot who trained in the P-40 in Florida prior to being

deployed the 359FG in 1944. I also have a book on the subject written

recently covering the training involved for a new fighter pilot in WWII.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Tactics and the training of those tactics did exist during WWII and

before. 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Ten of My Rules for Air Fighting



 Wait until you see the whites of his eyes.

 Fire short bursts of 1 to 2 seconds and only when your sights are

definitely 'ON.' 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Whilst shooting think of nothing else; brace the whole of the body; have

both hands on the stick; concentrate on your ring sight. 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Always keep a sharp lookout. "Keep your finger out"! 



 Height gives you the initiative. 



 Always turn and face the attack. 



 Make your decisions promptly. It is better to act quickly even though

your tactics are not the best. 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Never fly straight and level for more than 30 seconds in the combat area. 



 When diving to attack always leave a proportion of your formation above

to act as top guard. 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 INITIATIVE, AGGRESSION, AIR DISCIPLINE, and TEAM WORK are words that MEAN

something in Air Fighting. 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Go in quickly - Punch Hard - Get out! 



 â€” Flight Lieutenant Adolphus G. 'Sailor' Malan, RSAAF, August 1941





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27839#27839

jsfox(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:50 am Post subject: BFM/ACM

Actually  the first written rules of air combat was Boelcke's Dicta created by German WW I ace Oswald Boelcke. 

Steve Fox

On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:39 AM, Roger Kemp wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com (viperdoc(at)mindspring.com)>

All very true. I believe the German Gentleman's name the initially

developed fighter tactics was named Imeilman (sp).

More like basic fighter maneuvers.

Doc





  	  Quote: 	
		  [Original Message]

From: Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50(at)msn.com (NiftyYak50(at)msn.com)>

To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>

Date: 4/12/2006 7:04:09 AM

Subject: Re: BFM/ACM

--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50(at)msn.com (NiftyYak50(at)msn.com)>





  	  Quote: 	
		  But consider this: in WWII the guys in the Luftwaffe, the RAF, the 

USAAF, and the Japanese Imperial Navy Air Force had to create the

 	
	
skills 

  	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  for ACM from whole cloth without anyone having the skills ahead of

 	
	
time. 

  	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  Yes they killed a lot of people doing it but they figured it out

 	
	
without 

  	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  any training ahead of time. That means that it is possible for people

 	
	
to 

  	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  figure it out without formal military training. 

 	




Not true. Many tactics were developed during WWI and employed in WWII.

 	
The Germans were very experienced in dog fighting due to thier

participation in the Spanish Civil War. The Condor Legion (a unit send from

Germany to support Franco) further developed tactics that are still in use

today to inlcude most of the various tactical formations.  I have asked

countless WWII US fighter pilots and all without exception have told me

that they received "BFM" training prior to flying an operational mission.

Now, it was certainly not like what it is today, but they did have

training. If you need proof, I can forward a copy of a gunnery training

report from a P-51 pilot who trained in the P-40 in Florida prior to being

deployed the 359FG in 1944. I also have a book on the subject written

recently covering the training involved for a new fighter pilot in WWII.

  	  Quote: 	
		  



Tactics and the training of those tactics did exist during WWII and

 	
before. 

  	  Quote: 	
		  



Ten of My Rules for Air Fighting

Wait until you see the whites of his eyes.

Fire short bursts of 1 to 2 seconds and only when your sights are

 	
definitely 'ON.' 

  	  Quote: 	
		  



Whilst shooting think of nothing else; brace the whole of the body; have

 	
both hands on the stick; concentrate on your ring sight. 

  	  Quote: 	
		  



Always keep a sharp lookout. "Keep your finger out"! 

Height gives you the initiative. 

Always turn and face the attack. 

Make your decisions promptly. It is better to act quickly even though

 	
your tactics are not the best. 

  	  Quote: 	
		  



Never fly straight and level for more than 30 seconds in the combat area. 

When diving to attack always leave a proportion of your formation above

 	
to act as top guard. 

  	  Quote: 	
		  



INITIATIVE, AGGRESSION, AIR DISCIPLINE, and TEAM WORK are words that MEAN

 	
something in Air Fighting. 

  	  Quote: 	
		  



Go in quickly - Punch Hard - Get out! 

— Flight Lieutenant Adolphus G. 'Sailor' Malan, RSAAF, August 1941

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27839#27839






 	




          - The Yak-List Email Forum -

                                             

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

              - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

                                             

http://wiki.matronics.com

            - List Contribution Web Site -

  Thank you for your generous support!

                              -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

http://www.matronics.com/contribution

jsfox(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:01 am Post subject: BFM/ACM

On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:49 AM, Stephen Fox wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Actually  the first written rules of air combat was Boelcke's Dicta created by German WW I ace Oswald Boelcke. 

Steve Fox

On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:39 AM, Roger Kemp wrote:

	




And they are as follows;



Dicta Boelcke

1. Try to secure advantages before attacking. If possible keep the sun behind you.

*'Advantages' for WWI aircraft included: speed, height, surprise, performance and numbers.

Speed - the pilot with the faster of two machines has control over the combat. He has the choice to break off combat and retire. The slower machine can not catch him. The pilot of a slower machine must stay on the defense. He can not run to safety. A fast moving aircraft can perform elaborate manoeuvres, giving its pilot many options. A machine flying close to its stall speed can do little beyond wallowing in a more or less straight line. Aircraft engines available in 1914 and 1915 provided just enough thrust to keep machines airborne at 80 mph, and not much more. Level flight was fine, but climbing to a higher altitude took several minutes and cut air speed nearly in half. Diving, on the other hand, could add half again to a plane's top speed. By 1916, engine power and speed increased. By the end of the war, aircraft were operating regularly at speeds over 130 mph. Speed was critical.

Height - From the advantage of flying above his opponent, a pilot had more control over how and where the fight takes place. He could dive upon his opponent, gaining a sizable speed advantage for a hit and run attack. Or, if the enemy had too many advantages, numbers for instance, a pilot fly away with a good head start. On average, WWI aircraft climbed slowly. Altitude was a hard earned 'potential energy' store not to be given away capriciously.

Surprise - getting the first shot before one's opponent is prepared to return fire was the 'safest' and preferred method for attack. Most air victories were achieved in the first pass. Without all-seeing devices like radar, a pilot could approach his foe stealthily, using clouds, haze or even using the enemy aircraft's own wings or tail to conceal his approach. The glare of the sun, especially, provided an effective hiding spot.

Performance- Knowing the strengths, weakness and capabilities of your own aircraft, and that of your foe, was also critical. Who was faster, who could turn tighter, how many were there, etc.? He argued against foolish acts of 'heroism.' If he could not 'secure advantages,' he would not attack. One of Boelcke's pupils, Manfred von Richthofen, learned this rule very well and became the war's top scoring ace.

A documented example of Boelcke 'securing advantages' took place on 17 September 1916. Boelcke and his pilots intercepted a flight of bombers and fighters crossing the lines. He chose not to attack right away, but had his Jasta climb higher above the bombers, keeping themselves between the bombers and the sun. There they circled and waited. When the bomber pilots, observers and fighter escort pilots were preoccupied with the destruction they were causing on the ground, Boelcke signaled for his pilots to attack. Several enemy aircraft went down and Jasta 2 lost no one.*

2. Always carry through an attack when you have started it.

*Rookie pilots would start a fight, but instinct (fear) would convince them to break it off and run. This inevitably presented the rookie's tail to his opponent's guns, making the rookie an easy victory for his enemy. Boelcke learned that it was far better to stay and continue mixing it up -- waiting for his opponent to make mistakes or flee -- than to break and run. To turn tail and run was to surrender most, if not all, of the advantages a pilot might have had.

As an example, when Manfred von Richthofen met British ace Lanoe Hawker in November 1916, each persisted in trying to get on the other's tail. Both stuck to Boelcke's second dictum. When their endless circling had brought them down near the ground behind German lines, Hawker had to chose between landing and capture or fleeing. He chose to flee. Richthofen was then able to get behind him and shot him down.*

3. Fire only at close range and only when your opponent is properly in your sights.

*A common rookie's urge was to start blasting away upon sighting his first enemy machine. Shots taken at ranges of 1000 yards stood little chance of hitting their mark. The rattle of machine gun fire would alert the intended target and gave them time to react.

The machine guns available for aircraft during the Great War were not highly accurate at longer ranges. Add to that the difficulty of aiming from a moving, bouncing gun platform at a fast moving target and it is a marvel that anyone ever hit anything. Boelcke preferred to fly to within 100 yards or less before firing, to ensure hitting what he aimed at with his opening burst. Once the rattle of his guns was heard, the advantage of surprise was gone, so it was best to make that first shot most effective.

Another aspect of making each shot count was the limited supply of ammunition carried in WWI aircraft -- usually only several hundred rounds. This could amount to less than 60 seconds of sustained fire. Reloading in the air varied from dangerous to impossible. Spraying the sky with lead in hopes of hitting something, eventually, was not an option. Shots had to be chosen carefully. Early in the war, when a sense of chivalry still held sway, some men allowed their opponents to depart if they were out of ammunition or had jammed guns. Total war did not allow such courtesies to last for long.*

4. Always keep your eye on your opponent, and never let yourself be deceived by ruses.

*The first part, 'keeping your eye on your opponent,' sounds obvious enough, but it needed to be stated. In the hustle and bustle of an air fight it was easy to lose sight of your adversary. A restatement of this rule might be: never assume you know where your opponent is or will be. If a pilot 'lost' his foe, the advantage shifted to the foe. A successful pilot did not allow himself to be distracted from his opponent.

Ruses. It was not an uncommon practice for a pilot to feign being hit, going into a supposedly uncontrolled spin or dive, in order to exit a fight that was not going well. This practice traded on the chivalry of their opponents. To continue hammering a man who was already going down, was thought unsportsmanlike. Boelcke recognized that too many enemy were being allowed to escape and return to fight another day. War for national survival was not sport. He taught against the accepted notion that once a machine began to spin down, that one could move on. If it was a ruse, the enemy pilot would pull out at the last moment and either escape or return to attack, perhaps now having gained the advantage of surprise. Boelcke wanted his pupils to follow their opponent down. Make sure they were out of the fight or resume the fight if necessary.*

5. In any form of attack it is essential to assail your opponent from behind.

*Firing at a machine flying across one's path required 'leading' the shot -- aiming ahead of a moving target to compensate for its speed. While a few pilots were adept at the mental calculations necessary and good areal marksmen, most were much less adept. The velocity of a moving gun platform, the speed of bullets plus the speed and direction of a moving target could be a lot to consider in the heat of battle. Furthermore, in deflection firing, the target could cross the stream of fire whose bullets were 200 feet or more apart. Such crossing gave less exposure to the bullets.

Head-on attacks or head-to-tail attacks required little or no calculated deflection in aim. Head-on attack, however, exposed one directly to the enemy's guns. Far safer and more effective to have one's target and bullet stream all traveling in more or less the same direction. This required little or no 'leading,' and exposed the target to a greater concentration of fire.

Because of the prevalence of attack from the rear, aircraft design adapted to allow for rear firing guns in two-seaters and larger bombers.*

6. If your opponent dives on you, do not try to evade his onslaught, but fly to meet it.

*This rule is related to dictum #2 above. The instinctive reaction of many rookies was to turn and flee from an approaching attacker -- especially a diving one. This simply presented their tail to the attacker, usually with disastrous results. Boelcke taught that a pilot had to conquer that instinct. Turning to face the attack could force the attacker onto the defensive, or at least keep the situation unsettled, which was far better than presenting your tail. Even though climbing to meet an attack would reduce speed, it was better to try to bring one's own guns to bear than flee.*

7. When over the enemy's lines never forget your own line of retreat.

*If a pilot chose to flee a superior force, or was coming down with damaged machine, it was critical to spend what little time he might have going in the right direction. This rule sounds as though it is stating the obvious, but Boelcke found it necessary to include. More than a few pilots came down behind enemy lines because they got confused and lost their way. In WWI, areal navigation was done mostly by sight. Taking regular note of landmarks helped a pilot get his bearings quickly, perhaps making the difference between safety and captivity.*

8. For the Staffel: Attack on principle in groups of four or six. When the fight breaks up into a series of single combats, take care that several do not go for one opponent.

*In the first year or so of WWI, air combat was more of a one-on-one affair. The early aces, like Pegoud, Garros, Boelcke and Immelmann, hunted the skies alone. Later in the war the sheer number of machines in the sky increased. Several reconnaissance machines traveled together for mutual protection, further protected by escorting fighters. Boelcke recognized that the days of the lone hunter were over. Many young pilots, however, still came to the front expecting to dash valiantly into battle alone as an errant knight, only to be quickly overwhelmed by multiple enemies.

Boelcke tirelessly lectured his pupils on the need for teamwork -- sometimes scolding them for acting too independently. Attacking in a group allowed the leader to concentrate his attention exclusively on his target, while his 'wingmen' protected his tail.

Air battles later in the war could involve dozens of aircraft from each side at the same time. The sky could become a swirling tangle of machines. When 'your' side was at a numerical disadvantage, it was especially important not to double up on one opponent. The concentrated fire was of dubious value, since you were just as likely to get in each other's way as hit the enemy. Doubling up also left an enemy machine somewhere unbothered and free to tail one of your side's machines. Later in the war, teamwork became the primary key to success and survival.*

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:01 am Post subject: BFM/ACM

Pappy,

 Again I agree fully with what you say. A B- course student gets 6 months of stair step  instruction and indoctrination until their graduation as a fledgling wingman fighter pilot. We can't teach that in a 3 day course. We can only make the student dangerous and eventually kill someone. The pandora's box of ACM instruction for civilians should remain closed.

 What you do on your own dime is your choice. But remember, if you rip a wing off and mort your self or someone else for that matter, it will impact all of us Red Star Pilots.

 Doc

  

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

fish(at)aviation-tech.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:17 am Post subject: BFM/ACM

Group,



The father of modern dog fighting was Lt. Oswald Boeleke (WW I, German Ace,

40 Victories). He wrote Boeleke's Dicta (the rules for dog fighting). 



Air combat has changed dramatically since World War I. Basic tactics and rules

established by Oswald Boeleke in 1916, however, have stood the test of time

well. He gave new pilots eight rules of air combat to help them survive and

win.

 



Here are his rules:



1. Try to secure an advantage before you begin your attack. This advantage could

be altitude, position, or surprise. 



2. Always carry through with an attack once you've started. 

Fire only at close range and when your opponent is properly in your sights.

3. Always keep your eye on your opponent. Don't be deceived by ruses. 



4. Always attack from behind your opponent. 



5. When attacked, turn into the attack; don't try to evade. 6. Always be on

the offensive. 



6. When over enemy lines, never forget your own line of retreat. 



7. When your fuel and/or weapons are low, start thinking about how you're going

to get back to base. 



8. Attack in groups of four or six.  



Lt. Maxwell Imeilman (15 Victories) created the maneuver named after him. He

was also the first member of the Air Force to win the Pour Le Merite (rom then

on called: The Blue Max). 



Fly Safe

John fischer



Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it!



 	  Quote: 	
		  



All very true. I believe the German Gentleman's name the initially

developed fighter tactics was named Imeilman (sp).

More like basic fighter maneuvers.

Doc

> [Original Message]

> From: Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50(at)msn.com>

> To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

> Date: 4/12/2006 7:04:09 AM

> Subject: Re: BFM/ACM

>

> 

> > But consider this: in WWII the guys in the Luftwaffe, the RAF, the 

> > USAAF, and the Japanese Imperial Navy Air Force had to create the

skills 

> > for ACM from whole cloth without anyone having the skills ahead of

time. 

> > Yes they killed a lot of people doing it but they figured it out

without 

> > any training ahead of time. That means that it is possible for people

to 

> > figure it out without formal military training. 

> > 

> Not true. Many tactics were developed during WWI and employed in WWII.

The Germans were very experienced in dog fighting due to thier

participation in the Spanish Civil War. The Condor Legion (a unit send from


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Germany to support Franco) further developed tactics that are still in use


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  today to inlcude most of the various tactical formations.  I have asked

countless WWII US fighter pilots and all without exception have told me

that they received "BFM" training prior to flying an operational mission.

Now, it was certainly not like what it is today, but they did have

training. If you need proof, I can forward a copy of a gunnery training

report from a P-51 pilot who trained in the P-40 in Florida prior to being


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  deployed the 359FG in 1944. I also have a book on the subject written

recently covering the training involved for a new fighter pilot in WWII.

>

> Tactics and the training of those tactics did exist during WWII and

before. 

>

> Ten of My Rules for Air Fighting

>

> Wait until you see the whites of his eyes.

> Fire short bursts of 1 to 2 seconds and only when your sights are

definitely 'ON.' 

>

> Whilst shooting think of nothing else; brace the whole of the body; have


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  both hands on the stick; concentrate on your ring sight. 

>

> Always keep a sharp lookout. "Keep your finger out"! 

>

> Height gives you the initiative. 

>

> Always turn and face the attack. 

>

> Make your decisions promptly. It is better to act quickly even though

your tactics are not the best. 

>

> Never fly straight and level for more than 30 seconds in the combat area.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  >

> When diving to attack always leave a proportion of your formation above

to act as top guard. 

>

> INITIATIVE, AGGRESSION, AIR DISCIPLINE, and TEAM WORK are words that MEAN


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  something in Air Fighting. 

>

> Go in quickly - Punch Hard - Get out! 

>

> â€” Flight Lieutenant Adolphus G. 'Sailor' Malan, RSAAF, August 1941

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27839#27839

>

>

>  

>  

>  

>

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:54 am Post subject: BFM/ACM

Tim Gagnon wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  > But consider this: in WWII the guys in the Luftwaffe, the RAF, the 

> USAAF, and the Japanese Imperial Navy Air Force had to create the skills 

> for ACM from whole cloth without anyone having the skills ahead of time. 

> Yes they killed a lot of people doing it but they figured it out without 

> any training ahead of time. That means that it is possible for people to 

> figure it out without formal military training. 

>

 	  Quote: 	
		   Not true. Many tactics were developed during WWI and employed in

 WWII. The Germans were very experienced in dog fighting due to thier

 participation in the Spanish Civil War. The Condor Legion (a unit

 send from Germany to support Franco) further developed tactics that

 are still in use today to inlcude most of the various tactical

 formations.  I have asked countless WWII US fighter pilots and all

 without exception have told me that they received "BFM" training

 prior to flying an operational mission. Now, it was certainly not

 like what it is today, but they did have training. If you need proof,

 I can forward a copy of a gunnery training report from a P-51 pilot

 who trained in the P-40 in Florida prior to being deployed the 359FG

 in 1944. I also have a book on the subject written recently covering

 the training involved for a new fighter pilot in WWII.

I *know* that there was ACM training that took place in WWII. The point 

is that there *was* a point where the knowledge didn't exist.

No knowledge of ACM existed prior to WWI. There was no one to teach it 

because no one had done it. And even when they did start to learn, it 

was very limited due to the limitations of the aircraft. The earliest 

combat pilots in WWI went into combat with no training whatsoever. They 

learned by trying and created a set of tactics that worked for the 

aircraft they had at the time.

At the beginning of WWII some of the people in the Luftwaffe had gone to 

the trouble to develop new tactics that worked much better given the 

capabilities of the aircraft. When the RAF found themselves on the 

receiving end they had to adapt or die. Many died, the others adapted. 

There was no one in the RAF ahead of time to give new pilots the 

necessary training because they didn't know the tactics ahead of time.

Actually, they did get military training ... from the Luftwaffe. The 

problem was, the lessons were quite painful early on. Those that learned 

the lessons the hard way came back and tried to impart that information 

as quickly as they could so that the newbies would have a fighting 

chance to get past their first five combat sorties alive.

And the same goes for the USAAF and the USN.

So we can argue just exactly when things happened and why they happened 

but that is a small thing. The key point is: there was a point where no 

one had the knowledge and then someone innovated and created the 

knowledge. Being the recipient of the best military training the RAF had 

to offer in 1939 did not convey upon you the preparation to meet the 

Luftwaffe on an even footing in combat. Likewise, being in the USAAF or 

USN and being the recipient of the best military training the US could 

offer at the beginning of WWII did not convey upon you the preparation 

to meet the Luftwaffe on an even footing in combat. The first pilots to 

deploy all got their initial learning one way and one way only -- in combat.

One thing I will say for the US military is that they were smart enough 

to bring the best and the brightest back to train the noobs rather than 

leaving them in combat until they died where their hard-earned knowledge 

would die with them.

-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

johnhilterman1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:36 am Post subject: BFM/ACM

Two comments:  

     This logic means we      better all stop doing ANY kind of maneuvering on the airplane that puts us      close to 4 G’s, aerobatics included.  
I disagree with the      comment “if you didn’t learn it in the military, you’ll      never do so”.  There’s a Yak-50 pilot on the west coast that      wasn’t trained in the military but was trained by a fellow F-18      pilot buddy of mine.  On any given day we’ll trade bullets 50% of      the time.  He’s one of the few individuals I’m willing to go “fangs      out” with because I know he won’t bust our ACM training rules      which we brief prior to every flight.  I also know that during an      engagement he understands and recognizes those sight pictures which can      lead to a bad day at the office and will pull the fangs in prior to it      getting dangerous.   

   

My two cents.  

   

Hitman  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Drew Blahnick

 Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:22 PM

 To: Steve Dalton; yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Cc: Drew Blahnick

 Subject: Re: BFM/ACM  

  

     

Good stuff, I'm sure Al and Brian Lloyd are itchin to respond !    

    

   

    

Drew  

    



 

 Steve Dalton <sdalton(at)goeaston.net> wrote:  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

Y’all,  

    

   

    

At the risk of flogging a very deceased equine I offer the following for your consideration:  

    

   

    

Last Friday my son’s F-16 squadron lost a jet in the Atlantic.  Thankfully, the young man flying it survived.  Here is the story as related to me by folks knowledgeable of the incident.    

    

   

    

This experienced F-16 pilot was getting checked out as an Instructor Pilot (IP).  His wingman was a very experienced IP (playing the “rookie”).  The mission they were flying was the MOST BASIC of Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM) sorties, offensive perch set-ups.  In these set-ups the “rookie” (played by the experienced IP) starts behind the “target” (the IP trainee).  At the “fight’s on” call, the IP trainee starts a canned high-g level turn to give the “rookie” a simple BFM problem to solve.  This is as basic as it gets, BFM 101.  There is NO simpler BFM mission!  All he did was start a level hard turn!!!!!  

    

   

    

But, as he looks over his shoulder to monitor the “rookie”, the IP trainee g-locs (blacks out due to g’s).  He goes to sleep, in full afterburner, and his hand stops pulling on the stick.  As a result, he heads downhill toward the water at Warp 9.  Thankfully, he wakes up in time to see the water RAPIDLY approaching and ejects.  The jet hits the water ½ second after ejection, but he swings in the chute for almost two minutes.  Get a feel for the downhill speed on the jet?!!?  

    

   

    

Both legs and arms are broken in the 600-700 KT ejection, but he climbs in his raft and is eventually rescued.  The rescue is a whole story in itself!!  The ACES II ejection seat is AWESOME!!!  

    

   

    

OK, so how does to this apply to us Yak/CJ people?  Simply this:  It could easily happen to one of us!!!!!  

    

   

    

It may have taken 9 g’s to put this guy to sleep.  But, would 7, 6, 5, or even 4 g’s be enough for one of us older, less physical specimens?  Folks, this was the most simple, the most basic BFM mission there is!!  And, yet, it’s not the first time this has happened.  I lost a friend at Nellis AFB in the mid-80’s IN THE EXACT SAME SCENERIO.  Glen Hessel hit the ground so fast/hard a Park Ranger a mile away phoned in a report of an earthquake.   

    

   

    

I hope this explains why I do not advocate any formal RPA “teaching” of BFM/ACM.  Including defensive threat reactions like done out west at All Red Star (that’s all this guy did, one simple level turn!  And he barely survived).    

    

   

    

I know some of us will continue to do BFM/ACM, myself included, amongst ourselves.  But PLEASE consider the risks.  I also know it sounds egotistical and arrogant, but you just can’t teach BFM/ACM to guys/gals who do not have the background that fighter pilots have.  It’s one of those things that if you didn’t learn it (and survive it) in the military, you’ll never do so.  You missed your chance.  Just like most (all?) of us missed our chance to be brain surgeons/major league baseball players/rock stars/Bill Gates/NASCAR drivers/astronauts/Pope John Paul/etc.  We all followed different paths and each of us has certain talents and experiences.  We all offer something unique to the group, but, we all aren’t fighter pilots.  

    

   

    

OK, flame proof undies strapped on…fire away!  

    

   

    

Fly safe,  

    

Steve Dalton  

    

   

    

   

    

   

  	
  

       

  

New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman5/*http:/us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http:/beta.messenger.yahoo.com]Call regular phones from your PC[/url] and save big.

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:14 am Post subject: BFM/ACM

cjpilot710(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   */Brain,/*

 *//* 

 */You're flaming the wrong guy here.  The original post was from Steve 

 Dalton, former F-16 jock and now a chief pilot for SW.  /*


	


I know the original post came from Steve. I also know that the message 

came from Drew who intentionally baited Al and me by name.



And I did not flame anyone. I didn't flame Drew and I didn't flame 

Steve. I am expressing my opinion during a discussion. Expressing a 

counter opinion or opposing fact is not flaming. Discussion on all sides 

of a topic helps people to see all the sides of a topic so that they can 

then go make good decisions for themselves. The bottom line in all of 

this is for people to have as much information as possible so they can 

go think for themselves.



 	  Quote: 	
		   */I do not feel the association has the resources nor expertise to set 

 up a ACM/BFM course that would be safe for its members.  Simple as 

 that.  


	


This is a really big disconnect here. This is, I think, the crux of the 

matter. I get the feeling that you think that I think that the 

"association" (I assume you mean RPA) should provide sanctioned BFM/ACM 

training when, in fact, I don't want the "association" to set up 

anything. What I do want is for the "association" to stop saying "you 

must ..." and "you mustn't ...". If a bunch of guys show up at an 

"association" whoop-de-doo and say, "we want to go out and do ACM 

training," I want the "association" to say, "here's a room where you can 

brief, here's some airspace we got NOTAM'd where you can go play. Knock 

yourself out and try to come back in one piece. Come back and tell us 

all about how much fun you had over a beer when we quit flying for the day."



 	  Quote: 	
		   Yes, "training" is a good thing, but some "training" is 

 unnecessary.  Outside the military, ACM is a ego trip - period.  Ego has 

 killed more people than weather.  Just about every accident could be 

 traced some way back to ego.  /*


	


Maybe. It is also an adrenaline rush and a lot of people really like 

that adrenaline rush. Some get it jumping out of a perfectly good 

airplane. Some get it climbing rocks. Some get it by driving at 200 mph 

next to 29 other cars. Some get it by doing aerobatics. Some get it by 

chasing another airplane around the sky.



So, guess what, they are going to go do it. More power to 'em.



 	  Quote: 	
		   */The wings can be pulled off any airplane.  


	


I'm not sure that is totally true. Some airplanes can't go fast enough 

to where you can generate enough lift to cause the wing or airframe 

structure to fail. But I concede that one could certainly fly most 

trainers to destruction, including the CJ6A.



 	  Quote: 	
		   It does not take G lock to 

 do it.  Egos have a higher tolerance to G stress loads than our 

 airplanes.  The Yaks and CJ's were not built to do this.  


	


Certainly the CJ6A isn't. The Yak-52 was built to execute unlimited 

category aerobatic maneuvers including tumbling and gyroscopic 

maneuvers. I'm not sure that there is anything someone can do during ACM 

that is going to actually break the Yak-52 but I also concede that if 

you tried really hard you might be able to overstress the Yak-52.



But that is not the point. Isn't the point to know where the limits are 

and to train yourself not to exceed those limits?



 	  Quote: 	
		   They are 

 trainers NOT fighters.  In our careers we've watched more than one ego 

 trip, take the wings off perfectly good airplanes and become lawn darts 

 - with a hell of a lot more experience pilots than you at the controls./*


	


I couldn't agree more.



 	  Quote: 	
		   */In theory "training" makes a safe pilot but "training" can also led a 

 pilot into a complacency where he goes too far into that part of the 

 flight envelope for his abilities.   /*


	


Isn't that true of all aspects of aviation? Isn't that what judgment is 

all about?



At this point we diverge from the factual into the philosophical. There 

is a powerful desire on the part of many people to try to "help" the 

rest be safer/healthier/whatever. (I tend to call these people 

"meddlesome liberals" because it seems that they have more of an 

egocentric view that they know better and must protect the ones who 

don't know as well from themselves. But this behavior is not limited 

solely to liberals. Letting people make decisions, especially bad 

decisions, for themselves is NOT popular.)



No question that NOT performing ACM is safer than performing ACM. OTOH, 

if you extend that out you run down the following road:



1. not performing ACM is safer than performing ACM;



2. not flying formation is safer than flying formation;



3. not doing aerobatics is safer than doing aerobatics;



4. not doing spins is safer than doing spins;



And eventually we reach:



5. not flying is safer than flying.



So where do we stop? Where do we cease telling others how to live their 

lives? Where do we allow people to take full responsibility for 

themselves, especially when operating their own aircraft?



So, given that people ARE going to go out and try this stuff, is it 

better for the "association" to provide an environment where those who 

have and who know can impart their knowledge to those who want to learn 

or is it better for the "association" to say, "you mustn't do that."



There are people in "the association" who have significant experience in 

flying ACM. There are people in "the association" who want to learn 

something about ACM. I think it is better for the latter to get together 

with the former so the former can say to the latter, "OK, here is how 

you do this and, by the way, if you do this other thing you are likely 

to hurt yourself or your airplane."



When the RPA started out as the Yak Pilots Club, it was just a way to 

find other people who shared an interest in these aircraft. As the RPA 

has grown the character of the organization has changed from a club to 

that of a quasi-military organization with lots of structure, hierarchy, 

and rules. I suspect that this stems, in part, from the people who 

populate it. Lots of people flying Yaks and CJs come from a military 

background. They trained and flew in a military environment. It is what 

they know and they know that it worked. In the military those higher in 

rank have the responsibility to protect and not misuse the resources 

under their command and control.



And of the ones who are not ex-military, a lot of them are military 

wannabes. They wish they could have trained in and flown a kerosene 

rocket. So they want to emulate the military and get some of that feeling.



But we are not in the military. You are not responsible for me nor for 

the safe operation of my airplane. I am not responsible for you. I and I 

alone have the responsibility for myself. You may advise, suggest, 

wheedle, cajole, browbeat, or convince me that I should do something but 

you may not force me to do something even if you know for a fact I am 

doing something wrong.



I think I have a useful analogy, one that I know everyone will 

understand. As instructors we are supposed to teach students that stalls 

are dangerous because stalls lead to spins and that gets people killed. 

So the FAA is protecting us by making us teach stall avoidance.



Personally I prefer to show my students the whole stall/spin regime. I 

show them what the rudders are for. I let the airplane depart and then 

recover so they can experience how much altitude will be lost. I show 

them what a fully developed spin looks like and a couple different ways 

to recover. I am not doing this in order to enable them to go out and 

spin their aircraft, I am doing this so they understand why stall 

avoidance is so important. It is no longer just words like, "here be 

dragons." They learn to respect that part of the envelope, not fear it.



And some do use that as a springboard to choose to move on to more 

interesting types of flight.



Now apply this same attitude to ACM.



<sigh> I am getting tired of finding myself in opposition to you guys 

all the time. I think you guys should do what you want to do. I think 

that I should do what I want to do. I promise to take steps to ensure 

that my actions do not impinge negatively on you either.



And when all is said and done, I sure hope we are still able to fly just 

for the sheer joy of it. When the people who love this as much as I do 

start talking like meddlesome liberals I find that I'm not feeling 

particularly optimistic anymore.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:25 am Post subject: BFM/ACM

Roger Kemp wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 All very true. I believe the German Gentleman's name the initially

 developed fighter tactics was named Imeilman (sp).


	


Max Immelmann did indeed come up with a number of early tactics. The 

immelmann turn (half loop with a roll to level at the top) was named 

after him. The other person who was so influential, probably more 

influential than Immelmann, was Oswald Boelke. If one had to pick just 

one person who did the most to define fighter tactics it was probably 

Oswald Boelke.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:29 am Post subject: BFM/ACM

Steve Ol' boy, you are correct. I stand corrected. Imeilman introduced the use of the vertical into tactics and ACM for abrupt reversal of direction to gain an advantage.

 Doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:52 am Post subject: BFM/ACM

Brian Lloyd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 cjpilot710(at)aol.com wrote:

> */Brain,/*

> *//* */You're flaming the wrong guy here.  The original post was from

> Steve Dalton, former F-16 jock and now a chief pilot for SW.  /*

 I know the original post came from Steve. I also know that the message

 came from Drew who intentionally baited Al and me by name.

 And I did not flame anyone. I didn't flame Drew and I didn't flame

 Steve. I am expressing my opinion during a discussion. Expressing a

 counter opinion or opposing fact is not flaming. Discussion on all

 sides of a topic helps people to see all the sides of a topic so that

 they can then go make good decisions for themselves. The bottom line

 in all of this is for people to have as much information as possible

 so they can go think for themselves.

I didn't see a flame either.  However I did see the juvenile comment

from Drew and I gave it all the response it deserved.  It seems that

Drew in particular doesn't understand the difference between flames and

discussion based on difference of opinion. 

BTW, Drew and those that would like to see what flame responses, and

flame wars actually look like, I'd recommend looking at alt.fames

newsgroup.  Having been around the net since 1991, what people see as

flame posts are actually just strong differences of opinion. 

Thankfully, it is a rare post in this forum when people get into

insulting flame posts.  While there is radical differences of opinion

here, it is mostly beneficial discussion and most would still get

together to fly or drink beer at the end of the day. 

Dabear

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:04 am Post subject: BFM/ACM

Hitman,

 It is what you do and are comfortable with. I for sure am not saying not to do ACM if it is between mutually consenting adults. You brief it and are comfortable with the players , then fly it. But lets not do this in the context of the RPA. 

 I fly BFM occassionally with my "buds" from the squadron. I am not sure I would take my ex-marine helicopter pilot bud out for a 1 v 1 BFM sortie since he has no prior ACM training. But he is ex-military for what it is  worth. 

 It is skill and apptitude. That is not learned in a 3 day course. I will bet your friend learned this skill over a minimum of a year's time unless he got to fly 3 to 4 days a week 1 to 2 sorties a day and had academics in between for a month or so. It takes time and exposure to see how an unsafe situation is or can be developing. How  what started as a rolling reposition on a level turning bandit aircraft that abruptly pulls to the vertical now creating a flight path confliction. Now in a heartbeat you are going to have to convert this to a vertical rolling scissor or opt for unloading and extending to exit the fight. If you nose is already committed to the vertical with your bid for a rolling reposition and with his pull to the vertical you are now commited to the vertical also. In the one move, your opponent just changed the whole architecture of the fight in a heartbeat. A 3 day wonder would not even see it coming nor would they   quickly recognize that they have a flight path confliction, if the fight was inside 2000 to 1000 feet say, you and he are in trouble. Outside of 2000 ft, to 3000 ft in our aircraft, a newbie might be able to see that and react. 

 How many civilians off the street even understood what  I was just talking about? Not many, I am sure.

 I know I sound like I am lecturing to a pro. Sorry, I do not mean to sound that way. I know you know all of what I was saying, but there are those out there that want to taste ACM and do not have the back ground to go there safely.

 Doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

Scooter

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 155

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:38 am Post subject: Re: BFM/ACM

Can anyone recommend a book on ACM?  I'm getting bored with the inverted flat spins and i need a new challenge.



I had an ACM book that came with a video game that i got back in the early nineties (Fighting Falcons or something like that).  It was surprisingly well written (by an F16 instructor).  Unfortunately I loaned it out and never recovered it.

dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: BFM/ACM

Fighter Combat, Robert Shaw  Naval Press



DaBear



Scooter wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Can anyone recommend a book on ACM?  I'm getting bored with the inverted flat spins and i need a new challenge.



I had an ACM book that came with a video game that i got back in the early nineties (Fighting Falcons or something like that).  It was surprisingly well written (by an F16 instructor).  Unfortunately I loaned it out and never recovered it.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27930#27930

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject: BFM/ACM

Scooter, 

You can get the same game at Office Depot or even upgrade to the F-22

version. Why you can even go on line to fly ACM against others with the

newer versions of Falcon 5.0 or F-22 version 5.0. Saw them the other night

as I was making the necessary shelf check for the office supply run. Why

they are offering 5 hours of "Warbirds" online flight simulation. The

ultimate in geeks v geeks online fighter simulation. Just prepping the next

generation UCAV drivers where you can fight the war from your console in

the cab somewhere on Nellis. Just video and RC flying in a new releam with

toys that really do BANG when the pickle button is pushed.

 The book by Robert Shaw is a good one, but somehow I get the feeling

though you are yanking the collective chain here.

Doc

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: DaBear <dabear(at)damned.org>

 To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 4/12/2006 2:53:17 PM

 Subject: Re: Re: BFM/ACM

 Fighter Combat, Robert Shaw  Naval Press

 DaBear

 Scooter wrote:

 >

 >

 >Can anyone recommend a book on ACM?  I'm getting bored with the inverted

flat spins and i need a new challenge.

 	  Quote: 	
		   >

 >I had an ACM book that came with a video game that i got back in the

early nineties (Fighting Falcons or something like that).  It was

surprisingly well written (by an F16 instructor).  Unfortunately I loaned

it out and never recovered it.

 	  Quote: 	
		   >

 >

 >

 >

 >Read this topic online here:

 >

 >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27930#27930

 >

 >  

 >

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Yak-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
Page 1 of 4

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum